34 replies to this topic

[sajuukkhar9000]

I'd be interested in the reference you have that identifies that the Dragonborn pre-date the covenant between Alessia and Akatosh. Apparently, you have information that the in game scholars were not aware of and it would be nice to clear up this error in lore.

It's the entire plot of the Dragonborn DLC.

I'd be interested in the reference you have that supports this as well. Since the prophecy is unclear, I only stated what the prophecy says. Since you appear to have further information that clarifies the prophecy, it would be appreciated if you shared the reference that identifies this as fact.

Aengir states that he does not know if other dragonborn exist, only that you are the only one of this age that has been revealed, and speculates there very well could be others out there, who have not found their gift.

As I stated in my post, the typical belief is the passing of dragon blood (and thus being dragonborn) was through the royal linage, there is also belief that other dragonborn did exist as servants of Akatosh. Thus, I am confused by your point here.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Book_of_the_Dragonborn
"Because of this connection with the Emperors, however, the other significance of the Dragonborn has been obscured and largely forgotten by all but scholars and those of us dedicated to the service of the blessed Talos, Who Was Tiber Septim. Very few realize that being Dragonborn is not a simple matter of heredity - being the blessing of Akatosh Himself, it is beyond our understanding exactly how and why it is bestowed. "

Lastly, since you state as fact that the dragonborn is not associated in any way with the covenant between Alessia and Akatosh and that being dragonborn is a gift, please identify who provides this gift.

Akatosh gifted the first mortal with the Dragon's blood in the merithic era, around 300 years before Akatosh was created by Alessia, along with the other 8 divines, and 1,200 years before Akatosh became an individual being when the Marukhati Selective tore him from Auri-el causing a 1,008 year long dragon break.

Akatosh was doing stuff before he even actually existed, because screw linear time, hes the god of time. It's also why Alduin calls Akatosh his father, when Alduin existed before Akatosh did.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 28 January 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Tidus44]

It's the entire plot of the Dragonborn DLC.

That doesn't answer anything. Since you seem to have misunderstood the question, it was stated as fact that:
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.
While the Dragonborn DLC does identify other dragonborn existed, I have not denied that or rejected the idea and have even said the same in my posts, and I quote:
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh.
Where is it stated as fact that each and every dragonborn cannot be related to the covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh because all dragonborn existed outside of the covenant?

Aengir states that he does not know if other dragonborn exist, only that you are the only one of this age that has been revealed, and speculates there very well could be others out there, who have not found their gift.

Actually, the Greybeards name is Arngeir. What he says is meaningless as it does not clarify the prophecy as it neither confirms other dragonborn exist nor that there are no others.
What I posted was:
it has been prophesized that he (she) is the last dragonborn and will appear when the world eater appears
I only identified what the prophecy says, I did not state as fact that the dragonborn was the last ever or that no others existed or even that there may be others.
However, what was stated as fact was:
The prophesy leading up to Skyrim also does not indicate that they will be the last Dragonborn ever, only that they are the last to survive in the current age.
Where is the evidence that clarifies the prophecy to mean, as fact, the last dragonborn of the current age?

Your comment on how a dragonborn comes into existence is also lost on me as well as it says the same thing I said in both my posts;
the typical belief is the passing of dragon blood (and thus being dragonborn) was through the royal linage, there is also belief that other dragonborn did exist as servants of Akatosh.
Again I ask, what exactly is it you are trying to point out or correct?

Your opinion on Akatosh and Alduin and time travel is also lost on me as I do not see how that relates to the dragonborn being associated with Akatosh. Regardless of when or how or who was the first or whatever it is you are trying to point out, my point regarding the dragonborn was because he is associated with Akatosh, it was my belief that the dragonborn is immune to any influence or claim by the daedra. If you have factual evidence that refutes my belief, please identify it as what you posted makes no sense.

[Lachdonin]

It's the entire plot of the Dragonborn DLC.

That doesn't answer anything. Since you seem to have misunderstood the question, it was stated as fact that:
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.
While the Dragonborn DLC does identify other dragonborn existed, I have not denied that or rejected the idea and have even said the same in my posts, and I quote:
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh.
Where is it stated as fact that each and every dragonborn cannot be related to the covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh because all dragonborn existed outside of the covenant?

Miraak was the first Dragonborn. He pre-dated the Dragon War, which in turn predated the forming of the Covenant beween Alessia and Akatosh. Whats more, Miraak seems to have forcibly stolen the power, rather than it being any particular blessing from the dragon god him self.

You are also neglecting the numerious pre-release interviews in which Bethesda talked about the larger lore concepts of the game. In discussing the Blades, we were told they once served teh Dragonborn. While they eventually fell in line behind a particular bloodline, the Septims, that was a political move rather than some innate link to royalty. Also remember that the Septims were of no particular import before Talos, and have no known ties to the Alessian bloodline. I know theres the whole "one of our shared blood" crap in the Allessian covenant, but we already know of dozens of rulers who were not of Alessian descent without having the Dragonfires die.

But i digress. Multi-lineage bloodlines with no tie to royalty, combined with confirmed existance of pre-Covenant Dragonborn, is proof that the covenant is not the reason tehy exist. It is possible that the covenant created another, distinct line of Dragonborn, but there has been no association whatsoever in the background between the Dragonborn and the Alessians.

[VictoriaG]

I think it's strange you can even take on certain deadric quests as a vampire, I remember from oblivion some deadra positively despise the undead and their creator Molag Bal doesn't even recognize you are one.

[sajuukkhar9000]

That doesn't answer anything. Since you seem to have misunderstood the question, it was stated as fact that:
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.
While the Dragonborn DLC does identify other dragonborn existed, I have not denied that or rejected the idea and have even said the same in my posts, and I quote:
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh.
Where is it stated as fact that each and every dragonborn cannot be related to the covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh because all dragonborn existed outside of the covenant?

It does answer everything, if dragonborn were the result of the covenant, or tied to it in any real way, then no Dragonborn could exist outside of the covenant.

The covenant between Alessia and Akatosh has nothing to do with Dragonborns, it has to do with keeping the Daedra at bay via Akatosh's support of the luminal barrier, that Dragonborns existed before before, in the case of Miraak, and after, in the case of the player, the covenant, shows that the existance of the dragonborn is entirely unrelated to it, and that Akatosh gave the emperors the Dragonsblood, was him making sure that mortals had the ability to keep their end of the pact.

Actually, the Greybeards name is Arngeir. What he says is meaningless as it does not clarify the prophecy as it neither confirms other dragonborn exist nor that there are no others.
What I posted was:
it has been prophesized that he (she) is the last dragonborn and will appear when the world eater appears
I only identified what the prophecy says, I did not state as fact that the dragonborn was the last ever or that no others existed or even that there may be others.
However, what was stated as fact was:
The prophesy leading up to Skyrim also does not indicate that they will be the last Dragonborn ever, only that they are the last to survive in the current age.
Where is the evidence that clarifies the prophecy to mean, as fact, the last dragonborn of the current age?

Your comment on how a dragonborn comes into existence is also lost on me as well as it says the same thing I said in both my posts;
the typical belief is the passing of dragon blood (and thus being dragonborn) was through the royal linage, there is also belief that other dragonborn did exist as servants of Akatosh.
Again I ask, what exactly is it you are trying to point out or correct?

Your opinion on Akatosh and Alduin and time travel is also lost on me as I do not see how that relates to the dragonborn being associated with Akatosh. Regardless of when or how or who was the first or whatever it is you are trying to point out, my point regarding the dragonborn was because he is associated with Akatosh, it was my belief that the dragonborn is immune to any influence or claim by the daedra. If you have factual evidence that refutes my belief, please identify it as what you posted makes no sense.

If you knew anything about the Elder Scrolls, you would know that prophecies are never 100% accurate.


ugh... facepalm I was pointing out that who gets Akatosh's gift is entirely up to the god himself, and it goes beyond even his servants. Mankar cameron, and Miraak, were both Dragonborn, and both told Akatosh to f*** off. Akatosh gives people the dragonsblood because they need it, not because they serve him.


I was pointing out that the Dragonborn have existed since before Akatosh himself existed. Akatosh wasn't a being until 1E1,200 when the selective tore him from Auri-el. Also, Mankar Cameron was dragonborn, and he was tied up with Dagon.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 28 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Tidus44]

It's the entire plot of the Dragonborn DLC.

That doesn't answer anything. Since you seem to have misunderstood the question, it was stated as fact that:
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.
While the Dragonborn DLC does identify other dragonborn existed, I have not denied that or rejected the idea and have even said the same in my posts, and I quote:
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh.
Where is it stated as fact that each and every dragonborn cannot be related to the covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh because all dragonborn existed outside of the covenant?

Miraak was the first Dragonborn. He pre-dated the Dragon War, which in turn predated the forming of the Covenant beween Alessia and Akatosh. Whats more, Miraak seems to have forcibly stolen the power, rather than it being any particular blessing from the dragon god him self.

You are also neglecting the numerious pre-release interviews in which Bethesda talked about the larger lore concepts of the game. In discussing the Blades, we were told they once served teh Dragonborn. While they eventually fell in line behind a particular bloodline, the Septims, that was a political move rather than some innate link to royalty. Also remember that the Septims were of no particular import before Talos, and have no known ties to the Alessian bloodline. I know theres the whole "one of our shared blood" crap in the Allessian covenant, but we already know of dozens of rulers who were not of Alessian descent without having the Dragonfires die.

But i digress. Multi-lineage bloodlines with no tie to royalty, combined with confirmed existance of pre-Covenant Dragonborn, is proof that the covenant is not the reason tehy exist. It is possible that the covenant created another, distinct line of Dragonborn, but there has been no association whatsoever in the background between the Dragonborn and the Alessians.

What does any of this have to do with answering my question?

You were quite clear and adamant in telling me my hypothesis was wrong because no dragonborn was related to the covenant. Did you not state as fact that;
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.

I believe I was quite clear in my belief that:
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh.
Since I did not state the only way the dragonborn existed was through bloodline and did include the possibility that Akatosh created a dragonborn to provide a specific service (ie: in the case of Skyrim to defeat Alduin), I would like to know exactly what is wrong with my belief.

Further, I stated as my belief that:
I believe that the Dragonborn is a mortal who has the soul of a dragon because of a covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh in order to keep the daedra in their planes of Oblivion and prevent them from entering Nirn.
Obviously, some dragonborn were part of the covenant as they were tasked with keeping the Amulet of Kings. Or perhaps you have evidence that states none of the kings were dragonborn (ie: Talos and his heirs) and none had any part of the covenant.
Since the Oblivion Crisis rendered part of the covenant impossible to maintain (there is no amulet of kings for any possible heir to retain), the only part remaining is the worship of Akatosh and his kin by the Empire. Thus the covenant is still in place to hold the daedra in the plains of Oblivion and prevent their entry to Nirn. This seems likely as the daedra are not invading Nirn, but again I may be wrong and some other means is in place to protect Nirn from the daedra. However, I did not state this as fact, only as my belief. If you have some factual evidence to show this is wrong, please identify it.

I did state that I believed that because of the covenant or the prophecy that a dragonborn would appear when the world eater appeared. Apparently, a dragonborn did appear in Skyrim when the world eater did, but I did not state how the dragonborn became dragonborn as I know of no evidence that shows he/she is a descendent of a bloodline or just a servant of Akatosh. If you have evidence that shows how/why the Skyrim dragonborn became dragonborn, please post it.

[Tidus44]

If you knew anything about the Elder Scrolls, you would know that prophecies are never 100% accurate.
ugh... facepalm

Since you need to resort to flaming me and childish displays, then I choose to ignore you and block you. Good day.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Since you need to resort to flaming me and childish displays, then I choose to ignore you and block you. Good day.

RRRIIIIGGGHHHTTT.................

[Lachdonin]

Ok, you seem to be rather confused on a few things...

First, there is nothing to indicate, anywhere, that the Septim Emperors were related to the Alessian rulers. In fact, there is a lot of indication that the so called 'covenant' made by St. Alessia has been highly overblown. But that is neither here nor there.

I also never stated that it was impossible that a Dragonborn bloodline. In fact, i accepted the possibility, and indeed the likelyhood, of the Covenant (if it even exists) creating a new bloodline. What i disputed was your assertion that the Covenant was the source of the Dragonborn. We know, as a fact, that it wasn't, because we have Dragonborn preceding it, and existing outside of its bloodline.

Relation to the Covenant would also not explain why the Dragonborn is particularly talented against Dragons. Dragons are Aedric, and the Covenant pertained only to creatures of Daedric origin. One would expect a blessing derived from the Covent would let one consume Daedra, not Dragons. Theres also nothing to suggest that other Dragons can consume eachother's souls, so theres no reason to beleive it's a dragon-soul which gives Dragonborn their particular abilities.

[Tidus44]

Ok, you seem to be rather confused on a few things...

First, there is nothing to indicate, anywhere, that the Septim Emperors were related to the Alessian rulers. In fact, there is a lot of indication that the so called 'covenant' made by St. Alessia has been highly overblown. But that is neither here nor there.

I am not confused by anything other than your continued ramblings about topics and information that has nothing to do with the thread or what I said and your inability or unwillingness to respond to any request I have made to demonstrate that what you post is fact and not just your opinion.

Please identify where I said or even inferred anything about the Septims being related to the Alessian rulers.
As for the covenant being "over blown", I ask that you provide the reference that indicates this as well.

I also never stated that it was impossible that a Dragonborn bloodline. In fact, i accepted the possibility, and indeed the likelyhood, of the Covenant (if it even exists) creating a new bloodline. What i disputed was your assertion that the Covenant was the source of the Dragonborn. We know, as a fact, that it wasn't, because we have Dragonborn preceding it, and existing outside of its bloodline.

I did not say that the covenant was the source (ie: the only source) for the dragonborn. I said;
I believe that the Dragonborn is a mortal who has the soul of a dragon because of a covenant made between Alessia and Akatosh in order to keep the daedra in their planes of Oblivion and prevent them from entering Nirn. The dragonborn is also a gift to the world and mortals as a defender of Nirn.
The dragonborn included a number of individuals, mostly the royalty of Cyrodiil, but there is the possibility that others were also dragonborn and provided specific services in the name of Akatosh. I say this as the Dragonborn in Skyrim is obviously not of the royalty of Cyrodiil and is not part of the line of the Septims.
This appears fairly clear to me that I only suggest that the covenant is one possible source, but other sources are equally possible. Your statement of fact was that:
the Dragonborn pre-date Alessia, which means they cannot be related to the covenant.
Again I will ask where is the reference that shows that all dragonborn are unrelated to the covenant?

Relation to the Covenant would also not explain why the Dragonborn is particularly talented against Dragons. Dragons are Aedric, and the Covenant pertained only to creatures of Daedric origin. One would expect a blessing derived from the Covent would let one consume Daedra, not Dragons. Theres also nothing to suggest that other Dragons can consume eachother's souls, so theres no reason to beleive it's a dragon-soul which gives Dragonborn their particular abilities.

I fail to see your point here as the discussion has never been about the effectiveness of the dragonborn against dragons, about consuming daedra or dragons consuming dragons. You actually have confused me here as lore identifies a Dovahkiin or Dragonborn is a mortal man or woman born with the soul of a dragon which enables them to use the dragon's ability to absorb a slain dragon's soul and gain the knowledge of a Thu'um, rather than having to learn it through practice.
I sort of fail to see how there is (as you state)no reason to believe it's a dragon soul which gives dragonborn their particular abilities when the lore is pretty clear that the dragon soul is exactly what gives the dragonborn their abilities. What reference do you have that suggests the dragonborn's abilities are derived from some other source or means? Or perhaps you are referring to some other abilities?