Theories on the "magic threshold" mod limit - And an interesti

[SMB92]

Hi all,

 

Well known to the community of New Vegas players and modders, there is a magic threshold/mod limit that one can have before the game engine starts to corrupt all textures,meshes and sounds in game along with any saves made whilst playing over the threshold. I have started this topic to attract anyone who has any theories on the matter and what might be able to be done.

 

For most people this limit is 140 mods in the LO. For some it is 150-160 or like myself, 175. I have a really good rig but I don't believe it has anything to do with this problem. Now some theories are that the object table is smaller than the actual address space assigned, even with the 4GB patch. However in contrast to this theory, if you were to start merging mods the game runs fine as long as your not over that 140-150-160-170-180, whatever limit. However I am led to believe that it may well be this theory but I think that there is a different system for the games object table underlying.

 

Now I first noticed something rather peculiar when attempting to use Mod Organizer. I could not run the game from it's run button even with the 4GB patch executable specified in it's menu. In fact I couldn't run it from any executable. It also corrupted my FalloutNV.exe file and I had to re-verify my cache in Steam, where it told me 10 files didn't validate O.O. Now that's a little off topic but here's what I did find intersting in Mod Organizer's logs: FalloutNV.esm STARTS AT 74 WHEN LOADED INTO MEMORY. Now that's a long way down the LO considering it's supposed to start at 00. WTF.

 

Now let's do some math.

 

If FalloutNV.esm starts at 74 then there are 138 slots left to fill. WOW. Fits the pattern perfectly :).

How we work this out? Well there are 16 combinations of bytes in the first 2 when the first is a set number, or in other words 16 mods for every 1st byte's number i.e 80 through to 8f. Consider 74-7F is only 12 slots and then F0-FE is 15 slots (as the game uses FF block for non-persistent references/temporary items like all Beth games) and then we have blocks starting with 8,9,A,B,C,D,E with 16 possible combinations for each, so do the math it's 12+112+15=139, including Fallout.esm.

 

Now why do some people go above this limit? I have found that I can go to 175 because several of them are merged or injected at the end and after closer examination, in reality i'm running 139 mods. I have found that despite theoretical sensationalism (lol) that BSA files do not count toward this limit, although loose esp's seem to. I tested this theory with Wyre Flash ghosting technique, when I disable ghosting on several unused merged esp's the game goes to crap again.

 

Now I may be entirely wrong but this is the closest I have gotten to a reasonable theory, but in saying that think about it for yourself, it makes sense ;)

 

Please leave your comments on the matter if you know what you're talking about and FEEL FREE to express your opinions and theories. It would be great to have some people that are experienced in these kind of things comment on this page.

 

Thanks all, happy modding - well at least up to 140 mods XD

 

P.S - Everyone should give kudos to Xaranth if you spot him - He's mostly behind what started my investigations that led me here and gave me the motivation to pursue his bug :) If your reading this your a legend :) and I'd like to see the seal of approval lol XD

 

 

[luthienanarion]

 

Now that's a little off topic but here's what I did find intersting in Mod Organizer's logs: FalloutNV.esm STARTS AT 74 WHEN LOADED INTO MEMORY.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our answer.

It was always assumed that plugin data was getting offset into memory ranges that the engine reserves for other data, but now we know how.

[SMB92]

Lol, I'm glad to see your name pop up here my friend. I wasn't quite sure but after speaking with Xaranth it all started to make sense. Now the question is how to fix this?

 

Also see my LO here: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/896684-the-ultimate-load-order-stable-and-perfect/

 

It's at 142 but 3 of them are directly injected. Idk how but they don't even make the log from Mod Organizer when initializing the game. I don't use MO but this was a bit of serendipity at work finding this out through it's log XD, I was just trying to help another user figure out why he couldn't load PN through. How about that lmao.

[Xaranth]

SERIOUSLY fine work. :smile: You get a seal. :wink:

http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/images/5597757-1360295161.png

I may have done a bunch of theorizing, but that was just it, theorizing. :P You did all the work. :smile:

Edit: Now how do I give Kudos on this new Forum layout, what a PITA... Oh, I have to go through your Nexus profile page.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Xaranth

[SMB92]

Cheers mate :)

 

Yeah I'm still getting used to this new design too, i think your right though it's on the profile page.

 

 

NOW ALL WE NEED IS AN EX OBSIDIAN EMPLOYEE OR TALENTED CODER TO SAVE US!!!

 

Arwell if not then at least Bethesda has just patented Fallout 4 :) - Can't wait XD

[mewfii]

This post is manly for people that play both Minecraft and Fallout, and/or other programs that execute through a Java file not a EXE file...

 

Most poeple know in Minecraft how to use more memory...is there something similer to this that one can use for Fallout?

 

Minecraft, Java, .Bat files, all have things in common...is there some way you can use a .bat file...or something similer...to boost memory for Fallout...3 or NV...and in turn boost how many mods you can use?

 

And no I'm not talking about FO3-SE or NVSE or FO3-4BG or FONV-4GB, I'm talking about either .Bat files or some other way to boost performence/memory...

[SMB92]

Well in turn, there may be some way to get around this but what is actually happening is that the engine is assigning blocks for the plugins at a very low/mid level rather than starting at 00 range as it should and although it tells us different in programs like FOMM and Wrye, where it blatantly says 00 next to Fallout.esm. It's not out of memory technically, just in the wrong spaces.... I see what your saying but what code do we target? What resources is the engine assigning to those mysterious blocks? Where does it go? At this point we've only gotten to diagnosis, not cure XD.

 

Idk where java comes into it, no java launcher for my game, and I don't play Minecraft. If there is Java in Fallout's exe then I didn't find it, already tore it apart in search of a golden egg, or even goose XD.

 

Personally i don't have the skill to write such a program but I can sure as hell find out what it is the problem lol. With a little help (from a rocket scientist lol) we might be able to develop such a file to overcome this issue. I feel Fallout 4 will be out before that happens though haha.

 

May god have mercy on our souls and send us a coder/expert/Dr.Who :)

[StormbringerGT]

I'd cream my pants if Fallout 4 ran native 64 bit... one can dream....

[Xaranth]

@Stormbringer - Dreaming is right; it has to run on the consoles. The PS3 has the bus to support it, but the processor architecture is way different, and of course the XBox is pretty much a Win32 box dressed up. :/

[StormbringerGT]

@Stormbringer - Dreaming is right; it has to run on the consoles. The PS3 has the bus to support it, but the processor architecture is way different, and of course the XBox is pretty much a Win32 box dressed up. :/

 

ah well. One day... one day.

 

Honestly at this point in the technology cycle "Next gen" consoles should be 64 bit. There is really no excuse not to.

 

Also I like how the Playstation 4 stats are still not as good as a lot of people's computers lol.

 

What advantage it does have the games being designed specifically to run on that hardware.

 

Anyway sorry to derail.