41 replies to this topic

[Echoside]

I believe the empire only works as a buffer if it remains intact. Cyrodill by itself would fall pretty quickly to an overwhelming enemy force before any such leghty plans could be put to practice. And the dominion army would only have any significant losses if it was presented with an actual challenge.
Basically, you need to work with what troops you have now, and whatever alliances you can forge, because the Dominion is at the gates.

 
The empire would still have the Bretons, Imperials, and the Orcs(Which still keeps the score at 3v3), besides taking Cyrodil would be a chore because they can't just focus on just it. It's harder to fight and watch multiple enemies at the same time instead of one concentrated enemy. Take your eyes off one and it tries to slit your throat... Beside the Imperials are going to make them work for every step of land. Plus the AD don't strike me as the type who would attack until they were absolutely sure of victory..
 
Plus I figure once they start their attack on Cyrodil is when I march my men... Troops from Skyrim flooding the heartland... Hammerfell 'pirates' attacking anything AD in the water... War and glory my friends, war and glory.

Edited by Echoside, 28 February 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[kradus]

But Skyrim is right in the middle, like a wedge. Splintering the empire is pretty much the end.

 

 

Pfff I can use translators too.

 

Actually, it wasn;t meant to be a simply translation, it was meant to be a joke.

 

OMG, FOR REAL?

Edited by kradus, 28 February 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[RighthandofSithis]

But Skyrim is right in the middle, like a wedge. Splintering the empire is pretty much the end.

 

 

 

Pfff I can use translators too.

 

Actually, it wasn;t meant to be a simply translation, it was meant to be a joke.

 

OMG, FOR REAL?

 

Yeah, i just didn't know if you got the reference.

 

And yes, Skyrim is the only thing keeping the Empire together. Without it, communications between it and Hick Rock would crumble.

Also, I'm not sure if the Orcish Kingdom of Orsimium would be part of the Empire. It seems to be located just inside of Hammerfell (or the most recent incarnation of it) from what we know, and the orcs are probably only looking for a homeland, and don't reaklly care about the Empire (as long as they are left alone).

[Echoside]

You do realize that there is magic in these games right? And. older game reference. where mages could more or less teleport people to per-established points... Breton's are a pretty decent magic race being man-mer mixes.

 

Also the Orc smithy in Markarth talks about how many Orcs join the legion for experience if memory serves.

 

Skyrim is important but no more so then Hammerfell.

[RighthandofSithis]

You do realize that there is magic in these games right? And. older game reference. where mages could more or less teleport people to per-established points... Breton's are a pretty decent magic race being man-mer mixes.

 

Also the Orc smithy in Markarth talks about how many Orcs join the legion for experience if memory serves.

 

Skyrim is important but no more so then Hammerfell.

 

Well, yeah, perhaps magical communication could work. Then again, it didn't work during the invasion of akavir (and magic was specifically mentioned as ending up as the only method of communication, and put a huge strain on the mages).

 

Isolation also has its own problems. Such as having a harder time exerting your will. It is suggested that the bulk of the Legion is held up in Cyrodiil, meaning that if, for any reason, the Empire needs to deploy in High Rock, it will not be able to.

 

Also, the Orc from Markarth was talking about the Orc strongholds in Skyrim. That may, or may not, be an accurate representation of Orsinium (the City State of the Orcs). Little is known about the current culture of Orsinium. Whether or not they actually worship Malacath and follow his teachings is unknown.

Although, young Orcs are know to serve in the Imperial military. it was one of the main reasons they became considered citizens and not beasts. That said, the Orcish leadership may, or may not, support (or even care) about the Empire.

[Echoside]

You do realize that there is magic in these games right? And. older game reference. where mages could more or less teleport people to per-established points... Breton's are a pretty decent magic race being man-mer mixes.

 

Also the Orc smithy in Markarth talks about how many Orcs join the legion for experience if memory serves.

 

Skyrim is important but no more so then Hammerfell.

 

Well, yeah, perhaps magical communication could work. Then again, it didn't work during the invasion of akavir (and magic was specifically mentioned as ending up as the only method of communication, and put a huge strain on the mages).

 

Isolation also has its own problems. Such as having a harder time exerting your will. It is suggested that the bulk of the Legion is held up in Cyrodiil, meaning that if, for any reason, the Empire needs to deploy in High Rock, it will not be able to.

 

Also, the Orc from Markarth was talking about the Orc strongholds in Skyrim. That may, or may not, be an accurate representation of Orsinium (the City State of the Orcs). Little is known about the current culture of Orsinium. Whether or not they actually worship Malacath and follow his teachings is unknown.

Although, young Orcs are know to serve in the Imperial military. it was one of the main reasons they became considered citizens and not beasts. That said, the Orcish leadership may, or may not, support (or even care) about the Empire.

 

Note I said teleport, not communication. The only in-game establishment of the teleporting lore is: A. it requires two premarked locations, B. it requires a mage to cast the spell for the teleporting spell (Typically only one mage), C. it was a commonly provided service from the mages guild. Considering they provided this service for gold and it was always the same mage providing the service, the spell it self was probably no more taxing then an expert or master spell at best. While maybe not practical for daily means, I'm sure in a big enough emergency it could enlarged to move large groups.

 

As for the Orc, I never once mentioned Orsinium. There are a huge number of free roaming Orcs and I'm very doubtful that Skyrim is the only land hosting Orc Strongholds.

[Lithium Flower]

I was gone two days and an explosion of posts!

 

Not to drag the conversation back to where I'd left it but the impression of Ulfric as a racist is just not fair or accurate. I argued against it in the imperial vs stormcloak thread. I said it then, I'll say it again: provide a genuine example of Ulfric's racism, an instance where the player can observe him being racist or bigoted otherwise it's just hearsay and circumstantial.

 

Secondly, based on how Beth always handles sidequests, we can assume some anonymous person is going to cause the events to unfold with no mention of whether it was the dragonborn who was involved. So I think we can safely assume Titus Mede will not survive beyond the civil war even if our dragonborn are the staunchiest Titus Mede cronies that ever staunched.

 

Anyway, skipping to the current discussion, the problem with teleportation I think is the same as the matter of Cyrodiil's climate change - namely developer revisionism. If teleportation was still a viable technology or indeed any of the more fantastic aldmeri tech mentioned in obscure texts and referenced in older games - we would've seen their use in the Great War. Surely, during their occupation of the Imperial City, the Dominion would've set up a few teleporters and evacuate their top brass once the Battle was lost.

[Echoside]

I was gone two days and an explosion of posts!

 

Not to drag the conversation back to where I'd left it but the impression of Ulfric as a racist is just not fair or accurate. I argued against it in the imperial vs stormcloak thread. I said it then, I'll say it again: provide a genuine example of Ulfric's racism, an instance where the player can observe him being racist or bigoted otherwise it's just hearsay and circumstantial.

 

Secondly, based on how Beth always handles sidequests, we can assume some anonymous person is going to cause the events to unfold with no mention of whether it was the dragonborn who was involved. So I think we can safely assume Titus Mede will not survive beyond the civil war even if our dragonborn are the staunchiest Titus Mede cronies that ever staunched.

 

Anyway, skipping to the current discussion, the problem with teleportation I think is the same as the matter of Cyrodiil's climate change - namely developer revisionism. If teleportation was still a viable technology or indeed any of the more fantastic aldmeri tech mentioned in obscure texts and referenced in older games - we would've seen their use in the Great War. Surely, during their occupation of the Imperial City, the Dominion would've set up a few teleporters and evacuate their top brass once the Battle was lost.

 

The fact that Dark Elves live in a slum and are harassed and mistreated by the general human population of Windhelm and that not a single beast-race person is within the city(docks are outside the city walls) isn't enough to prove that if he isn't a blatant racist then he at the very least completely apathetic to what happens to the non-nords in Skyrim. I'd rather be hated by governmental figures then just having them not care about what happens to my people.

 

True, still it's up in the air as a possibility till the next game.

 

True it's hard to use logic to argue revisions... I'll withdraw the point.

[Lithium Flower]

The Gray Quarter problems are not so simply reduced to 'Ulfric is a racist bastard', Ulfric is preoccupied with a war and doesn't want to expend what little resources he has on a constituency offering nothing in return, beyond that he hasn't disadvantaged them especially. Rolff Stone-fist and Agrenor Once-honoured, a drunk and a hobo respectively, are hardly representative of Windhelm as a whole. Even Brunwulf says most nords are welcoming. Galmar explains the 'with us or against us' dialogue and you can encounter random Dumner farmers who support Ulfric.

 

The most vocal complainant is Ambarys Rendarr and even other dunmer comment that he's too bitter and goes overboard.

 

The book Dunmer of Skyrim is a pretty insightful glimpse into how the Snow Quarter transformed into the Gray Quarter. Several dunmer residents place at least some responsibility for their situation on themselves. Suvaris admits the Dunmer in Windhelm don't support Ulfric's cause and wish to remain neutral in the war.

 

Despite that, Windhelm has an elven bourgeousie not only comparable with other big cities but perhaps even bigger, and many dunmer who are not complaining so bitterly.

 

Niranye: Altmer, businessowner, living outside the Gray Quarter.

Arivanya: Altmer, co-owner of Windhelm stable, lives outside Gray Quarter (no anti-Ulfric dialogue)

Ulundil: Bosmer, co-owner of Windhelm stables (cheerful dialogue, no mention of racism)

 

Belyn Hlaalu: Dunmer, landowner, employs nords (derides Windhelm's dunmer for their attidude)

Aval Atheron: Dunmer, business owner, lives in Gray Quarter and is somewhat btiter but not overly so.

Faryl Atheron: Dunmer, farm-worker, lives in Gray Quarter and is not bitter, blames dunmer for situation and says Dunmer are ashamed of working for nords.

Suvaris Atheron: Dunmer, manager of Shatter-Shield office, lives in Gray Quarter, angry, admits Dunmer don't support the civil war, want to remain neutral.

Revyn Sadri: Dunmer, business owner, Gray Quarter, blames dunmer for situation.

Idesa Sadri: Dunmer, nanny to Grimwar Cruel-Sea, lives with Cruel-Seas. No bitter dialogue.

Ambarys Rendar: Dunmer, business owner, Gray Quarter, vocal protestor

Malthyr Elenil: Dunmer, shop assistant, Gray Quarter, no dialogue about racism

Luaffyn: Bard, Candlehearth Hall, no dialogue about racism

 

There's Voldsea Giryon but assuming she's not a permanent resident of Windhelm I'm not including her, but note she isn't bitter, and is first mate to a Nord sea-captain.

 

8 out of 12 elves are self-employed, of which 9 are dunmer. Of the rest, only 3 can be argued are actually 'working class' - Faryl, Idesa and Malthyr - none of which complain about nords. Suvaris is a business manager for the Shatter-Shields, therefore not 'working class' though she's the next loudest protestor after Rendarr.

 

Now, compare with Riften with the next largest dunmer population and no complaints of racism, where dunmer seem to have integrated satisfactorily.

 

Indaryn: Dunmer, Manager of Black Briar Meadery

Niluva Hlaalu: Dunmer, janitor of Black Briar Meadery, working class.

Tythis Ulen: Dunmer, janitor at Bolli's fishery, working class.

Marise Aravel: Dunmer, business owner, lives in the slums

Brand-Shei: Dunmer, business owner

Synda Llanith: Dunmer, wife of Dravin.

Dravin Llanith: Dunmer, co-landowner.

Romlyn Dreth: Dunmer, busboy at Black Briar meadery, working class.

Dinya Balu: Dunmer, priestess of Mara

 

(There's also the two skooma dealers who are dunmer and one odd thief in the Thieves Guild that I'm not including)

 

3 out of 9 are working class, 2 live in the slums. 1 landowner (+wife), 1 business manager, 2 business owners, 1 priestess.

 

So not that different from Windhelm.

 

As a whole Windhelm is poor and miserable and I'm not denying the racial tension but it's not solely Ulfric's fault.

 

On the argonians, I would make an argument but Brunwulf, the great civil rights champion who curiously (perhaps conveniently) doesn't espouse the persecution of nords at the hands of Imperials and Thalmor, doesn't uplift them either, apparently 'for their safety' but presumably because they're thieving skooma addicts. It's the Shatter-Shields, Stormcloak supporters who give them employment (and Torbjon is even easily persuaded to raise their wages despite the fact that they admit stealing brazenly from him).

 

Khajiit, no one allows Khajiit caravans inside the cities. No reason is given but I suspect it's because of Anequina and Pelletine's alliance with the Dominion.

 

This doesn't mean that Ulfric is perfect and rainbows shoot out of his ar*e, perhaps he should make a bigger effort reaching out to them despite their reticence and refusal to integrate but Brunwulf's opinion of him is unfounded and not supported by facts. Brunwulf strikes me as a broken man whose lost his appetitde for war and wants to redeem himself. Survivor's guilt methinks.

[RighthandofSithis]

Well, the khajiit are not permitted inside the cities because, according to Ysolda, they are not trusted, and are seen as criminals.