40 replies to this topic

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

Of course. In EVERY (or almost) story something bad happens but we aren't talking about that and I don't think the original poster was referring to being annoyed by that at all.

 

We are referring to the aftermath of it all. In most of those stories something good comes out of it.  Even in Lord of the Rings, despite all the bad that happens, there was a happy ending. In Skyrim, the Daedric Princes just get away with whatever it is they are doing and or have done.

 

You either help said Daedric Prince or... or you... well technically it's help them or ignore that quest line entirely. Those are your options, mind you Skyrim decided to give an extra FU and make it to where those quests stay cluttering your quest log until you do them. (Yes, I know there are mods that blah blah blah)

 

And while I understand your second point, as I stated before, regardless as to why, they made that choice. I felt no sympathy for them and felt like they were just moving targets. I mean maybe if they elaborated more or if Serana shown to be more affected by what happened? I don't know, but I definitely wasn't feeling sorry for any of those vampires and if the game didn't restrict that particular character I was playing at the time, he would have had no issue attacking her.

 

Regardless, I think the issue here (or at least for me) is just feeling limited and or restricted in situations where we would have liked more choices. I get bad things happen outside of our control in our real lives so it is realistic, but at the same time I get enough realism from my real life on that front.

 

I don't need a game where I watch helplessly as a loved one dies from an illness just because there are millions who go through that everyday, give me a chance to save him or her.

 

And wow Frosty, LOL. That's exactly the crap I'm talking about. I'd like to believe it is just a bug they overlooked but if not, that is a waste of code to have the dialogue option there.

[Monkinsane]

Firstly, they chose to serve Moleg Bal. It is by their own choice - so it's self-inflicted. She might regret her choice afterwards (Yeah i know her family forced her into it, but she could have run away if she really wanted to).

Well, that being said, I do feel sorry for her, but we bear the consequences of our decisions.

Edited by Monkinsane, 07 May 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[EnaiSiaion]

What is funny about this discussion is that everyone above level 5 is a mass murderer and that's okay.

 

Sure, the bandits attacked the defenseless traveler bearing down on their campfire waving an axe looking to grind his one-handed skills. Sure, those Imperial posers tried to rob you. And yes, you joined a band of freedom fighters with racial and religious reasons and AK-47s to liberate Syria Skyrim by exiling or killing everyone who isn't a Nord, or perhaps you joined the Empire that conquered united Skyrim in the first place to prevent the Thalmor from growing even stronger after the BJ they got from the Empire you're trying to save; one way or the other Skyrim is going to be pointy ears thanks to your interference. I assume you also burned a few people alive with fire spells, killed a bunch of forsworn for fighting back against the Nords and/or used the peaceful teachings of the Way of the Voice to bring peace knock rabbits off mountains.

 

Everyone is a bastard in some way, but those aren't people.

[StayFrosty05]

@ Monkinsane....That's stepping on deadly ground...If it's forced it's Rape, simple as that, no if's, but's, what for's.....A lot of people make REALLY stupid decisions in their lives only to find out too late it was a really bad decision, they may be complete idiots for walking into something so obviously insane, but it doesn't mean they deserve some terrible punishment for the simple crime of being a complete idiot....As for Serana not running away, nothing is ever that simple....think about it, if you are a part of a family that's so twisted their willing to give themselves over to something as sick and perverted as Molag Bal, do you really think these sorts of people are just going to let you waltz out the door?...And in a world like Skyrim, honestly, where would you go?....Their not that big on social welfare or extending a stranger a hand there.

 

And with all that said, funnily enough I don't feel sorry for Serana.... ....I have no time for her in fact, she irritates the heck out of me...I think maybe because despite what she's been through she remains an idiot...didn't seem to learn anything from it.....funny that huh....our personal perceptions and where we take them.

[Monkinsane]

@ Monkinsane....That's stepping on deadly ground...If it's forced it's Rape, simple as that, no if's, but's, what for's.....A lot of people make REALLY stupid decisions in their lives only to find out too late it was a really bad decision, they may be complete idiots for walking into something so obviously insane, but it doesn't mean they deserve some terrible punishment for the simple crime of being a complete idiot....As for Serana not running away, nothing is ever that simple....think about it, if you are a part of a family that's so twisted their willing to give themselves over to something as sick and perverted as Molag Bal, do you really think these sorts of people are just going to let you waltz out the door?...And in a world like Skyrim, honestly, where would you go?....Their not that big on social welfare or extending a stranger a hand there.

 

And with all that said, funnily enough I don't feel sorry for Serana.... ....I have no time for her in fact, she irritates the heck out of me...I think maybe because despite what she's been through she remains an idiot...didn't seem to learn anything from it.....funny that huh....our personal perceptions and where we take them.

Yeah I might have phrazed that not so completely right (Also don't translate into real life LOL ) My point was just that they CHOSE to worship Molag Bal.

Does what he did make Molag Bal bad? No - He's been bad from the start - and they knew that going in. Molag Bal was just being Molag Bal.

Did they really think a Daedric Lord won't screw them over?

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

What is funny about this discussion is that everyone above level 5 is a mass murderer and that's okay.

 

Sure, the bandits attacked the defenseless traveler bearing down on their campfire waving an axe looking to grind his one-handed skills. Sure, those Imperial posers tried to rob you. And yes, you joined a band of freedom fighters with racial and religious reasons and AK-47s to liberate Syria Skyrim by exiling or killing everyone who isn't a Nord, or perhaps you joined the Empire that conquered united Skyrim in the first place to prevent the Thalmor from growing even stronger after the BJ they got from the Empire you're trying to save; one way or the other Skyrim is going to be pointy ears thanks to your interference. I assume you also burned a few people alive with fire spells, killed a bunch of forsworn for fighting back against the Nords and/or used the peaceful teachings of the Way of the Voice to bring peace knock rabbits off mountains.

 

Everyone is a bastard in some way, but those aren't people.

 

What? We're just going to have to agree to disagree there. I can't accept that killing characters, that would not hesitate to kill me, makes me a bastard. I also feel to see the relevance of this response.

 

Are you trying to say we're all like the rapist or what? I'm just honestly confused here so I needs some clarification.

 

Also, I am with you Monkinsane. They chose daedra worship, but I also agree with you Frosty that things aren't so simple and if my post made it seem like it was, I apologize.

 

I am just saying that in life, we always have a choice. We may not like our options, but we always have them.

 

You find yourself in an unwinnable situation and the person says to you, "Drink this poison that will certainly kill you or worship and satisfy this demon," and despite the fact that many people would choose different options from one another including the classic, "I don't care if it is unwinnable, this demon I'm going out fighting so I would charge one of them and die that way!" people will often say they had no choice.

 

I'm not saying she was wrong for her choice. I'm not saying that I didn't understand her choice. I am just saying that the particular character I played at that time due to his choices, would have attempted to end her life due to her choices. No malice or anything. It's just the way things worked out.

 

Mind you, I feel like we may have gotten away from the original point of this thread. I am pretty sure that this was only about being frustrated that there was nothing we could do to right the wrongs of Molag if we so desired to try... and also about being upset that there was no way to oppose any of the daedric princes.

 

It's do the quest, or stare at it constantly in your journal (unless you have a mod)

[ilikecheese1337]

I really rather liked Dawnguard's backstory. The real world is sometimes a horrible place, and Nirn can be even worse - on Earth people sometimes get away with murder and rape, but on Nirn they're literally miniature gods, and fighting them would be suicide. Serana's characterisation is a lot more effective when you think that, even discounting the millennia asleep, she's centuries old but acts like she's still in her 20s because of what happened to her and her upbringing. That's some serious arrested development.

 

^Unless you're playing a madman vampire mass-murderer (I think even the Dawnguard might have hesitated at hiring somebody like that) it's easily reasoned that the better idea would be to find out the vampires' plan before breaking out the Thu'um.

 

The Daedric Princes can't be challenged for the same reason they can't influence Nirn very much - they're almost entirely blocked by strange Oblivion-y magic.

 

 

One thing that does bug me, though, is why in Oblivion Serana went back to Castle Volkihar, and how she got out of there when she realised that the omnicidal maniac hadn't changed very much. 

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Daedric Princes can't be challenged for the same reason they can't influence Nirn very much - they're almost entirely blocked by strange Oblivion-y magic.

The Deadric Prines are unable to invade, or interact, with Nirn directly becuase of a magical barrier created by akatosh shortly before the founding of the first empire, it has nothign to do with Oblivion, or powers from it.

 

And the Deadic lord's powers come from that they are original spirits who, unlike the gods, who gave themselves to mundus, and died, and mortals, who devolved from the original spirits, the Daedra remain as they were before the dawn. that is why it took Martin who became Akatosh the combined power of every emeperor who ever lived since Alessia to even simply banish Dagon from Mundus.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000, 08 May 2013 - 12:07 AM.

[StayFrosty05]

@ Monkinsane....I wish the 'smileys' had a little Peace symbol.... ....I agree with you 100% about Molag Bal and people choosing to deal with him and in truth my sympathy does not extend to Serana's mother, as she made the choice of her own free will....there's no mention of Harkon forcing her. I do feel sympathy towards Serana for what happened at the time, though in all honesty she does seem to enjoy the results....Vampirism....But that's where my sympathy ends for her myself.

 

Edit....spelling....

Edited by StayFrosty05, 08 May 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[StayFrosty05]

What is funny about this discussion is that everyone above level 5 is a mass murderer and that's okay.

 

Sure, the bandits attacked the defenseless traveler bearing down on their campfire waving an axe looking to grind his one-handed skills. Sure, those Imperial posers tried to rob you. And yes, you joined a band of freedom fighters with racial and religious reasons and AK-47s to liberate Syria Skyrim by exiling or killing everyone who isn't a Nord, or perhaps you joined the Empire that conquered united Skyrim in the first place to prevent the Thalmor from growing even stronger after the BJ they got from the Empire you're trying to save; one way or the other Skyrim is going to be pointy ears thanks to your interference. I assume you also burned a few people alive with fire spells, killed a bunch of forsworn for fighting back against the Nords and/or used the peaceful teachings of the Way of the Voice to bring peace knock rabbits off mountains.

 

Everyone is a bastard in some way, but those aren't people.

 

What? We're just going to have to agree to disagree there. I can't accept that killing characters, that would not hesitate to kill me, makes me a bastard. I also feel to see the relevance of this response.

 

Are you trying to say we're all like the rapist or what? I'm just honestly confused here so I needs some clarification.

 

Also, I am with you Monkinsane. They chose daedra worship, but I also agree with you Frosty that things aren't so simple and if my post made it seem like it was, I apologize.

 

I am just saying that in life, we always have a choice. We may not like our options, but we always have them.

 

You find yourself in an unwinnable situation and the person says to you, "Drink this poison that will certainly kill you or worship and satisfy this demon," and despite the fact that many people would choose different options from one another including the classic, "I don't care if it is unwinnable, this demon I'm going out fighting so I would charge one of them and die that way!" people will often say they had no choice.

 

I'm not saying she was wrong for her choice. I'm not saying that I didn't understand her choice. I am just saying that the particular character I played at that time due to his choices, would have attempted to end her life due to her choices. No malice or anything. It's just the way things worked out.

 

Mind you, I feel like we may have gotten away from the original point of this thread. I am pretty sure that this was only about being frustrated that there was nothing we could do to right the wrongs of Molag if we so desired to try... and also about being upset that there was no way to oppose any of the daedric princes.

 

It's do the quest, or stare at it constantly in your journal (unless you have a mod)

So much of it depends on perspective....You know a murderous Bandit is hiding away in a Keep your ambling past....you know if you looked a soft target that Bandit will kill you for any possessions you have....you ignore the threat he poses because he doesn't attack you? I would call hunting Bandits a public service and civivc duty myself....ensuring they are unable to continue to harm those who can't protect themselves.

 

As for the Civil War...your examples are some what more complicated than you choose to present them.

 

Forsworn...simple self defense, they attack you along the road....Never hurt a Rabbit or set someone alight myself, can't speak for that....

 

Back to the Thread intention....Fighting back: It is easy to say I would rather die standing and fighting back than live on my knees and worship...a pretty scarey choice if it were real, but how each of us would respond if this were real is irrelevant ...Our Dovah's should at least have the option to a least say FU....rather than a polite little note in our Journals, indicating more of a 'Yes, my mighty Lord' ...than a  'I would rather die than serve you'....I completely understand and accept that a Daedric Lord is well beyond our Dovah's ability to destroy, but "encouraging" our Dovah's to play favorite pet with these Daedric beings peeves me.

 

Some people retaliate to this argument with you don't have to do everything in your Journal....I feel aside from my annoyance at the lack of choices....whether you choose to continue the quest or not, you are not always left a great deal of choice...I remember in one game my Dovah telling Molag Bal in fact to go jump and later went on to do the 'Rescue the Kid' Dibellan Quest....he battles his way through to the child's location...the cage she is in and guess who's in the cage with her, standing in front of her in fact, so I can't ignore him to speak to the child, I have to get him to move out of the way first....the Priest Molag Bal wanted me to find.... ....No, I didn't feel forced at all....

 

There does need to be more in game choice if Bethesda wants to continue with forced Quests.....Serana's immediate BFF status is another example....