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Homosexuality in animals is almost always an expression of pathology or extreme environmental turmoil. Actually... not quite. Homosexuality in animals is fairly common and is usually an expression of dominance over other members of a social group, among those animals which form social groups where males do not outright kill each other. It is also fairly common for males of all species to try and have sex with anything that does not kill them immediately. So, probably not saying much. Also... We are talking about two entirely different things. Animals may form social connections, but they do not love in the same way that humans do. The emotional attachment between two humans is a far deeper matter than just the mechanics of intercourse or what anatomy goes where or who is on top. Nope. I don't want to come across as a contrarian here but your understanding of animal behaviour is dated. For example lets look at K9s. The old school of thought was that "humping" was meant to show dominance. However the modern day animal behaviourists and other professionals who specialize in K9 behaviour have proven through years of recorded observation that humping behaviour has nothing to with dominance and today it is considered normal "PLAY" behaviour. In goats, homosexual behaviour is VERY common. This behaviour has been observed with all the members of the herd regardless of their standing in the pecking order (hierarchy). That is how scientists and behaviourists figured out that we had it all wrong. They started observing the behaviour in many different animal groups without any aggression and regardless of hierarchy rank. The evidence by today's scientific standards is overwhelming. We are now recognizing this behaviour in apes and chimpanzees and it is also very prevalent in another monkey family which name escapes me now.This probably is the case since most of my information on the subject is a tad dated... However, general statement I was making is still valid. Anyone who tries to claim that homosexual acts are unnatural clearly doesn't know anything about Nature. Meaning that most stigmas related to these acts are largely based on cultural beliefs and practices. This does not mean that open and permissible homosexuality is necessarily a good thing for society, just that it is, in itself, not a sign of disease, or evidence of a disorder, nor is it something that can easily be changed by means of force or indoctrination. Funny, because from your posts I wasn't sure what you were saying. You seemed to not know yourself what the topic was and where it was going at times. However I obviously agree with your statement that homosexual acts are normal in nature. But I am completely perplexed at your next statement. Maybe you would like to expand on your thoughts about how homosexuality is not necessarily a good thing for society. I happen to know of major sociology studies on this exact topic right now. They are actually going on all around the world but the one I am referring to is in Africa. You are obviously much older than me and maybe back when you were in university these beliefs were the norm. But like everything in life things progress. Sociologists as we chat right now are studying and understanding the purpose of homosexuality in nature and societies. It is a very complex topic and to be honest I also don't like the direction this thread is heading since actually the beginning of page 3. I also don't like have these conversations with people whom I don't know their educational background. You can call me elitist and I can live with that. There is a reason why neurologists don't sit at the bar and have conversations with construction workers. That is because people who achieve scientific and medical success above the phd level understand and experience life differently. Their linguistic patterns are different and their knowledge is far beyond that of the everyday blue collar worker to the point that the doctor will say something and because the other person never heard of whatever he said before in their life , they will then argue the point. It is human nature. Everyone does it and we all at one time in our lives have been guilty of doing it. human beings behave this way because no one likes to look stupid and be talked down to. It is a behavioural law of the universe that force creates counter force. Especially in the dark recesses of the mind muhahaha :tongue: I come from a large family. My mother is a doctor and my father a lawyer. I have four brother and sisters. My eldest brother is a dental surgeon and my older sister is a psychiatrist. My families friends are also of this highly educated class. This past week my parents had some company over at their house and one of the guests was head of infectious diseases at one of the leading hospitals in the country. I don't know how this conversation started but off the cuff he said that dogs mouths are very dirty. Now another guest immediately argued that they heard that dogs mouths are cleaner than humans. He just calmly repeated himself by saying very clearly, "No dogs mouths are filled with germs that can be very dangerous to children and the elderly." And as he is literally petting one of my parents dogs he said with a wry smile, "My mouth is much cleaner than these dog's mouths and I would never allow their mouth near mine." Now when a person who holds his office talks, your job is to listen. It goes against conventional wisdom that a dogs mouth is dirtier than our mouths. Most people believe that a dogs mouth is clean. But think about it. How could it be. They are smelling and licking other dog's behinds. They are smelling and licking other dog's urine outside. They eat poo often and garbage. They don't brush their teeth or floss :teehee: I mean come on... of course their mouths are dirty. Now try telling a dog lover that and you will see a perfectly normal person turn into the devil arguing the point till they die. Oh they will argue that there is a chemical in the saliva that acts as a disinfectant and on they go. That was the look on this woman's face in my parents kitchen as we were being served desert. Her face literally just dropped in her lap but the conversation moved forward to another topic. I mean, who's going to argue with him. he is the head of infectious diseases at the leading hospital in this field in the entire country! But for a second there, everyone else besides the doctor froze and was thinking the same thing I was, "I never heard that before." But I would bet a hundred dollars that you can say that to people anywhere and they will argue that dog's mouths are cleaner than human mouths. :dance: No one knows where they heard and learned this but almost everybody believes it especially dog lovers. My point is that I have no intention in trying to convince a priest that god doesn't exist or do I have any energy left to debate strangers on the internet and try to educate them on modern psychology and sociology. Where would I start. LoL I am one year away from a masters degree and how would I explain seven years plus of study? I can't and I won't pretend to try. All I can do is tell people the truth and then let them live their lives. I don't have this need to prove I am right. I know I am and that is enough for me. I am very happy to continue this conversation in private. That way we both can escape the senseless bickering, insults, and grandstanding as you have put it. But to be honest it is such a complex discussion I have to wonder, to what end? I have all this knowledge at my fingertips whereas you may not. It doesn't seem fair. Besides, this thread has turned into an, "I am right and you are wrong" scenario. Not necessarily with you personally but as a whole. I bet a thread on climate change would go much the same way. Luckily I am not a climatologist eh? :turned: I will tell you one thing I have learned in my pathological studies; when people start throwing insults then you know they have nothing left to argue and you have won. It is a behaviour seen in prisons and in university debate clubs. :tongue: That is where this thread has gone and that is why I choose to let it end. I don't need to solve the world's problems, I have enough of my own to work on tyvm :ohdear: It was a pleasure meeting you Vagrant0. See you around dem boards :thumbsup:

It is a natural human activity. The proof is in the history records that date back to Roman and Greek times where it was normal for men to have young male lovers. But you just have to look around. Men and women are in same sex relationships in every country in the world regardless of race or creed. If you want proof then I suggest you go to University and study Psychology or medicine or social work but posting links from the internet from obscure web sites just to support your idea of normal is an activity I can only laugh at. You can find anything on the internet if you look long enough. Link something from a reputable university and maybe then I will find the time to continue this discussion It is a natural human activity. The proof is in the history records that date back to Roman and Greek times where it was normal for men to have young male lovers. But you just have to look around. Men and women are in same sex relationships in every country in the world regardless of race or creed. If you want proof then I suggest you go to University and study Psychology or medicine or social work but posting links from the internet from obscure web sites just to support your idea of normal is an activity I can only laugh at. You can find anything on the internet if you look long enough. Link something from a reputable university and maybe then I will find the time to continue this discussion I was going to stay out of this but Hey You needs a University degree for his opinion to have validity? Talk about dismissive elitism, OK then, I have a Bachelors, a Masters, took Psych courses and agree with the carefully selected snippet you decided to respond to from his overall posts. One caveat I would add is that treating anyone poorly for their opinions, predilections, lifestyle or sexual orientation because you do not agree with it, is simply bad manners...something I was always taught / raised not to do. Ya Aurielius you know what, you should follow you first instinct and stay out of this if you are unable to control your emotions. You are now make accusations that have nothing to do with the topic. If you continue to insult people then I will report you. Please I welcome your input but conduct yourself appropriately. This is already a heated topic and there will be many different opinions. However opinions are different than facts. You can express your opinion even if it is not true but what we are doing here is having a discussion. If you continue to insult people here it only make yourself look bad. So where are those good manners you were raised with huh? I am not liking the direction of this thread so I am happily leaving it alone. I am going to enjoy the rest of the evening with my elitist family :laugh: But just to reiterate; homosexuality is normal human behaviour. The burden is not on me to prove it to anyone but theirs to dis-prove it to the rest of the world. Good luck with that :thumbsup: I note you cleverly edited out the part in your post where you felt it was ok to insult me, and then have the audacity to take A to task for supposedly similar behavior?? (I would point out, the unedited text from your post is quoted in his.) I don't see where he is tossing insults..... (but then, I am not a mod, and therefore, my opinion doesn't count. :smile: ) Also, no, you cannot simply make a statement, and then declare that you are correct, and people have to prove you wrong. You would be laughed out of the scientific community if you tried to pull that stunt. You are just expressing an opinion otherwise. Terribly sorry, just doens't work. Are you talking to me? I never insulted anyone here nor have I edited any of my posts. And yes I can simply make any statement I want and declare it is correct. I live in a country that protects my right to do that. But really internet debates on these subjects are pointless. So I now declare you right on everything. Believe whatever you want. I am not going to change you mind anyway and I am not trying too. What I am doing is saying to all my sisters and brothers out there who are lesbian, gay,and transgender that I love you and no matter what anyone else says to you, you are beautifully normal :wub:

Oh god NOOO! Don't play vanilla Morrowind. Why? Listen if you have a good graphic card go here and grab MGSO 3.0 right away and the updates and fixes. Vanilla Morrowind is awful. I got the same advice and after a week I stopped playing it and went on to Fallout 3. This past year I was out of town very often and so I tried Morrowind again and spent most of my time installing mods to make the game playable. MGSO will update everything in the game for you. Morrowind is an old game and even adding mods is a process. MGSO adds hundreds of mods and texture/meshes replacers. I will take an hour to set up but it will save you hundreds of hours if you were to search and install them yourself. I installed MGSO 3.0 recently and my game looks amazing. The game looks and plays better. MUCH much better XDD\ Think about it; why would you drive a 1994 volkswagon when you can drive a 2014 Pasat for the same price :laugh: Must have follower is (I have played them all and Emma's are real good but...) Kateri's follower mod is the best by far. You have to start a new game to use him but if you just started your game you will be ok. Julan, Ashlander Companion 2.02 I also like Emma's Thief Companion Constance ver. 1.2 because you will laugh a lot. A LOT XDD The rest of her companion mods are great but they come with large quests and you may want to get stronger and finish the main quest of morrowind before trying them but my fave of her companion mods is her The White Wolf Of The Lokken Mountain ver 2.1 You can also use jacs Jasmine, a Morrowind companion over at wolflore. She comes with a handy little home near the start of the game where you can drop stuff on the floor in safety and move them later on when you get your own home. Her quest is simple enough that it doesn't interfere with the game. Anyhoos... I am thinking about playing the game without "Better Bodies and Heads" and I am already feeling bad for you :D PLEASE update to MGSO 3.0 right away. If you post on the link they will help you set it up but it is very straight forward and the program is all scripted so you just choose what you want installed (if you have a good video card then install everything at max settings and choose all the extra mods in the MCP (morrowind code patch) part when that come up. Don't worry, any choices you make can be reversed or changed later. I have now played morrowind on 3 different computers with 3 different set ups. MGSO wwas the easiest installation with the greatest results. Check out my recent pics on the picture share and come upload some of your own regardless of what set up you choose :thumbsup: Cheers

ok thank you

It is a natural human activity. The proof is in the history records that date back to Roman and Greek times where it was normal for men to have young male lovers. But you just have to look around. Men and women are in same sex relationships in every country in the world regardless of race or creed. If you want proof then I suggest you go to University and study Psychology or medicine or social work but posting links from the internet from obscure web sites just to support your idea of normal is an activity I can only laugh at. You can find anything on the internet if you look long enough. Link something from a reputable university and maybe then I will find the time to continue this discussion It is a natural human activity. The proof is in the history records that date back to Roman and Greek times where it was normal for men to have young male lovers. But you just have to look around. Men and women are in same sex relationships in every country in the world regardless of race or creed. If you want proof then I suggest you go to University and study Psychology or medicine or social work but posting links from the internet from obscure web sites just to support your idea of normal is an activity I can only laugh at. You can find anything on the internet if you look long enough. Link something from a reputable university and maybe then I will find the time to continue this discussion I was going to stay out of this but Hey You needs a University degree for his opinion to have validity? Talk about dismissive elitism, OK then, I have a Bachelors, a Masters, took Psych courses and agree with the carefully selected snippet you decided to respond to from his overall posts. One caveat I would add is that treating anyone poorly for their opinions, predilections, lifestyle or sexual orientation because you do not agree with it, is simply bad manners...something I was always taught / raised not to do. Ya Aurielius you know what, you should follow you first instinct and stay out of this if you are unable to control your emotions. You are now make accusations that have nothing to do with the topic. If you continue to insult people then I will report you. Please I welcome your input but conduct yourself appropriately. This is already a heated topic and there will be many different opinions. However opinions are different than facts. You can express your opinion even if it is not true but what we are doing here is having a discussion. If you continue to insult people here it only make yourself look bad. So where are those good manners you were raised with huh? I am not liking the direction of this thread so I am happily leaving it alone. I am going to enjoy the rest of the evening with my elitist family :laugh: But just to reiterate; homosexuality is normal human behaviour. The burden is not on me to prove it to anyone but theirs to dis-prove it to the rest of the world. Good luck with that :thumbsup:

revoking question

It It is a natural human activity. The proof is in the history records that date back to Roman and Greek times where it was normal for men to have young male lovers. But you just have to look around. Men and women are in same sex relationships in every country in the world regardless of race or creed. If you want proof then I suggest you go to University and study Psychology or medicine or social work but posting links from the internet from obscure web sites just to support your idea of normal is an activity I can only laugh at. You can find anything on the internet if you look long enough. Link something from a reputable university and maybe then I will find the time to continue this discussion

Homosexuality in animals is almost always an expression of pathology or extreme environmental turmoil. Actually... not quite. Homosexuality in animals is fairly common and is usually an expression of dominance over other members of a social group, among those animals which form social groups where males do not outright kill each other. It is also fairly common for males of all species to try and have sex with anything that does not kill them immediately. So, probably not saying much. Also... We are talking about two entirely different things. Animals may form social connections, but they do not love in the same way that humans do. The emotional attachment between two humans is a far deeper matter than just the mechanics of intercourse or what anatomy goes where or who is on top. Nope. I don't want to come across as a contrarian here but your understanding of animal behaviour is dated. For example lets look at K9s. The old school of thought was that "humping" was meant to show dominance. However the modern day animal behaviourists and other professionals who specialize in K9 behaviour have proven through years of recorded observation that humping behaviour has nothing to with dominance and today it is considered normal "PLAY" behaviour. In goats, homosexual behaviour is VERY common. This behaviour has been observed with all the members of the herd regardless of their standing in the pecking order (hierarchy). That is how scientists and behaviourists figured out that we had it all wrong. They started observing the behaviour in many different animal groups without any aggression and regardless of hierarchy rank. The evidence by today's scientific standards is overwhelming. We are now recognizing this behaviour in apes and chimpanzees and it is also very prevalent in another monkey family which name escapes me now. What scientists were confusing was play behaviour with an increase of play anxiety and an inappropriate expression of releasing that anxiety. Anxiety is an energy and animal and human brains can not decipher the difference between positive and negative anxiety. For example if you get pulled over by a police officer you then get nervous and your anxiety levels increase. But you can also be excited about going to a football game and your anxiety will also increase. But your brain doesn't know the difference. Anxiety is anxiety. It all comes down to appropriated ways of releasing it and inappropriate ways of releasing it. Anxiety is all the same same so when it builds up it then is released. Just like children playing in the school yard if they start to get a little wild there will soon be an argument or a fight. But these bubbles have little to do with dominance. It is actually a very exciting time to be in animal sciences because they are actually re-writing the entire school of thought. With modern day recording cameras and now with drone technology we have unprecedented visual evidence of animal behaviour in the wild that previous scholars did not have access to. The old school of thought regarding animal (and human) behaviour as a whole has changed drastically in the last decade. Unless you are in university studying or working in these fields you are un- likely to know about the plethora of new scientific studies. But you will soon. I am sure in the next 5 years all sort of tv shows stations like Discovery and animal planet stations will make documentaries to inform the public.

Homosexuality in animals is almost always an expression of pathology or extreme environmental turmoil. That view is not shared by modern day animal behaviourists.

It is always difficult to have a discussion when people are cutting and pasting stuff from the internet. Homosexuality: The Mental Illness That Went Away The internet is a good source for basic information like how to install a mod but it doesn't replace the classroom.

I never stated that the issue had anything to do with "science" back in 1973. I already stated in my last post why people thought the way they did. 1973 was 40 years ago. I wasn't even born yet so those attitudes have absolutely zero effect on me. I am referring to today. However the modern era of Psychiatry has everything to do with science. I should know. I have a degree in Psychology and my older sister is a psychiatrist. That is a doctor (medical school, which is a science) and a psychologist. What I am trying to say is you really can't compare the old "Psychology" to today's methods and theories. For example, let us take Sigmund Freud; we don't even take his theories seriously any more. Modern day psychology has very little if nothing to do with anything he has said or done in his lifetime. We learn about it because it is history but we don't talk about the id and ego any more. Those terms are obsolete as much as the ridiculous attitudes toward homosexuality in the 70's. It is very difficult to think about gay and lesbian and transgender social attitudes before the AIDS epidemic in the early 80's. They are completely different eras; similar to, as a woman it is almost impossible to think that there was a time where we couldn't vote. Society as a whole matures and progresses. If I were you I would focus on the now father than the then. You will be happier that way :)

There is a long history between Psychology and Homosexuality going back to the 1952 DSM. Modern attitudes toward homosexuality have religious, legal, and medical underpinnings. Before the High Middle Ages, homosexual acts appear to have been tolerated or ignored by the Christian church throughout Europe. Beginning in the latter twelfth century, however, hostility toward homosexuality began to take root, and eventually spread throughout European religious and secular institutions. Religious teachings soon were incorporated into legal and medical sanctions. Sigmund Freud's basic theory of human sexuality was that he believed all human beings were innately bisexual, and that they become heterosexual or homosexual as a result of their experiences with parents and others (Freud, 1905). Nevertheless, Freud thought that a homosexual orientation should not be viewed as a form of pathology. In a now-famous letter to an American mother in 1935, Freud wrote: "Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness; we consider it to be a variation of the sexual function produced by a certain arrest of sexual development. Many highly respectable individuals of ancient and modern times have been homosexuals, several of the greatest men among them (Plato, Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, etc.). It is a great injustice to persecute homosexuality as a crime, and cruelty too.... "If [your son] is unhappy, neurotic, torn by conflicts, inhibited in his social life, analysis may bring him harmony, peace of mind, full efficiency whether he remains a homosexual or gets changed...." (reprinted in Jones, 1957, pp. 208-209, from the American Journal of Psychiatry, 1951, 107, 786). Of course Fread was wrong because he didn't think of the genetic factor involved. An entire history can be found here http://psychology.uc...tal_health.html Modern day scientists and psychiatrists consider homosexuality to be normal. We are also studying the behaviour in animals. It is very common in goats and we are now discovering and understanding the reasons why this happens in nature. :smile:

How Britain drove its greatest genius Alan Turing to suicide... just for being gay

this is a great question that kind deserves an answer; is this possible? Yes, no? I would like to know. Personally I think re spawning containers is silly. All containers should be safe. Is there a way i can make all containers safe through the CS and what do you guys think the ramifications of doing something like this would be? bump