Skyrimse Load Order Structure for Categories question

[cheffchantier]

Hello,

 

I had some questions regarding the structure of the load order for Skyrimse. I am using Vortex and so far had never any problems with it.

 

I modded Skyrim over a year ago(over 400 mods) and it seemed to work, aside for

some CTD's where I could never really find out what the problem was(mostly CTD when entering the Ivarstead Cell). Most of the sorting was done by LOOT and patching by Rab_splitter_script and some manual adjustments.

 

Now I got new Hardware and I decided to give it another shot, I was a little bit more prepared and this time wanted to do it right by working with groups, fine-tuned by rules.

I began scouring all of the mods pages to find out about problems or any other important changes, patches, incompatibilities, manual edits, etc

 

I created a table in excel and began writing down anything important for the specific mods and my personal needs.

 

Now I have the problem, that I am not 100% sure what LOAD ORDER STRUCTURE to take.

I began with a structure I had from modding my fallout4 game(the guide on the sim settlements URL).

But since fallout4 modding structure is different from skyrimse (alone the whole sim settlements mods have a special place in the loading structure), I quickly hit a wall.

 

So I decided to look for some guides. I found 2 structure guides worth my time but I am not sure which one to use.

 

1.

https://skyrimseblog.wordpress.com/load-order-structure/

 

 

2.

https://bethesda.net/community/topic/72943/how-to-load-order-skyrim-se-xb1-ps4-and-pc/2?language%255B%255D=en&language%5B%5D=en

--> the second post in the thread

 

 

The first one seems to make more sense to me, but what do I know.

 

With the second one I had several issues; I was not sure what categories certain mods belonged to.

And I had several issues with load priority. The categories were off for some mods and I needed to choose a random category in the middle just to get the load order & rules mentioned on the description page of the mods right.

 

I am conflicted on the second structure because of my problems with it, but it is posted on the official site so... I am not sure.

 

So I would be glad for any input that could help me on what structure to use.

 

Thx in advance

 

Cheffchantier

 

 

[HadToRegister]

Hello,

 

I had some questions regarding the structure of the load order for Skyrimse. I am using Vortex and so far had never any problems with it.

 

I modded Skyrim over a year ago(over 400 mods) and it seemed to work, aside for

some CTD's where I could never really find out what the problem was(mostly CTD when entering the Ivarstead Cell). Most of the sorting was done by LOOT and patching by Rab_splitter_script and some manual adjustments.

 

Now I got new Hardware and I decided to give it another shot, I was a little bit more prepared and this time wanted to do it right by working with groups, fine-tuned by rules.

I began scouring all of the mods pages to find out about problems or any other important changes, patches, incompatibilities, manual edits, etc

 

I created a table in excel and began writing down anything important for the specific mods and my personal needs.

 

Now I have the problem, that I am not 100% sure what LOAD ORDER STRUCTURE to take.

I began with a structure I had from modding my fallout4 game(the guide on the sim settlements URL).

But since fallout4 modding structure is different from skyrimse (alone the whole sim settlements mods have a special place in the loading structure), I quickly hit a wall.

 

So I decided to look for some guides. I found 2 structure guides worth my time but I am not sure which one to use.

 

1.

https://skyrimseblog.wordpress.com/load-order-structure/

 

 

2.

https://bethesda.net/community/topic/72943/how-to-load-order-skyrim-se-xb1-ps4-and-pc/2?language%255B%255D=en&language%5B%5D=en

--> the second post in the thread

 

 

The first one seems to make more sense to me, but what do I know.

 

With the second one I had several issues; I was not sure what categories certain mods belonged to.

And I had several issues with load priority. The categories were off for some mods and I needed to choose a random category in the middle just to get the load order & rules mentioned on the description page of the mods right.

 

I am conflicted on the second structure because of my problems with it, but it is posted on the official site so... I am not sure.

 

So I would be glad for any input that could help me on what structure to use.

 

Thx in advance

 

Cheffchantier

 

 

 

 

If you're going to try and force LOOT/Vortex (LOOT is built into Vortex) to follow one of those guides, you're going to be sorry, because those guides are just going to make you end up with Cyclic Rules etc, from trying to replicate them.

 

Turn on AUTOSORT, and Let Built in LOOT do it's Job, and the only thing you should ever fix, is when Vortex tells you there's a Conflict, anything you create extra is just going to lead to problems

[cheffchantier]

First thx for your answer.

 

 

 

If you're going to try and force LOOT/Vortex (LOOT is built into Vortex) to follow one of those guides, you're going to be sorry, because those guides are just going to make you end up with Cyclic Rules etc, from trying to replicate them.

 

 

Yeah I know, that´s why I wrote fine-tune the rules;) And that´s why I posted, I am going to set up my own categories but need guidelines for it. I don´t want loot to sort it for me and I am fine with that and it is less work(once you have all the info on the mods) for me than my old method, which is

 

 

Turn on AUTOSORT, and Let Built in LOOT do it's Job the only thing you should ever fix, is when Vortex tells you there's a Conflict, anything you create extra is just going to lead to problems

 

that is exactly what lead me to post this, because if you just trust vortex and loot you end up with so many problems and false priorities for mods. I am aware that I will have to do that with my method too, but I rather have a structured approach where I know exactly what I installed, edited, when and for what reason. So if there are Problems I know what I am doing and can very likely manually fix them.

 

In my first Install I tried the loot method and ended up scrambling for correct info, load order, etc on a lot of mods(i use a lot of small mods, not that known), because it ctd´ed non-stop.

 

 

I once found several Infos on the web on how to generally correctly structure in vortex, so I know it can work like a charm with setting up new specific loot categories and rules, but I cannot find that information anymore.

 

That´s why I wanted help on categories that will work and are mostly correct in the load order. I also know that there is no 100% correct working loading structure, because of how mods are built and Bethesdas system. A lot of them need special placing in your order.

 

I am searching for generally good load order categories which I can then fine-tune into my special needs. I personally still think the first one is a good starting point, but since I don´t exactly know how mods work in Skyrim I am unsure if the load order of the categories is correct or if it has to be changed?

 

Hope someone can help with that

[HadToRegister]

 

 

that is exactly what lead me to post this, because if you just trust vortex and loot you end up with so many problems and false priorities for mods. I am aware that I will have to do that with my method too, but I rather have a structured approach where I know exactly what I installed, edited, when and for what reason. So if there are Problems I know what I am doing and can very likely manually fix them.

 

In my first Install I tried the loot method and ended up scrambling for correct info, load order, etc on a lot of mods(i use a lot of small mods, not that known), because it ctd´ed non-stop.

 

 

I once found several Infos on the web on how to generally correctly structure in vortex, so I know it can work like a charm with setting up new specific loot categories and rules, but I cannot find that information anymore.

 

That´s why I wanted help on categories that will work and are mostly correct in the load order. I also know that there is no 100% correct working loading structure, because of how mods are built and Bethesdas system. A lot of them need special placing in your order.

 

I am searching for generally good load order categories which I can then fine-tune into my special needs. I personally still think the first one is a good starting point, but since I don´t exactly know how mods work in Skyrim I am unsure if the load order of the categories is correct or if it has to be changed?

 

Hope someone can help with that

 

 

 

that is exactly what lead me to post this, because if you just trust vortex and loot you end up with so many problems and false priorities for mods.

Nonsense

 

 

I have 381 active mods in Skyrim SE, all I did was download them, install and deploy them, then set any LOAD BEFORE/LOAD AFTER rules ONLY when Vortex Reported a Conflict.

 

That's it.

My game works fine.

 

What you're planning to do is a nightmare, and if it doesn't work out, don't blame Vortex for it.

 

And be sure to STAY AWAY FROM GROUPS!!!

Otherwise you will end up with non-stop cyclic rules looking like this

 

 

 

[HadToRegister]

Also, I should mention that getting 381 Mods took me the time to download and install the mods, then setting the load before/after rules, for about a total of 1-1.5 hours tops, that includes Download Time, Installation, Deployment Time etc.

[cheffchantier]

I´m sorry, I don´t agree with most of what you said.

 

I Modded my Fallout 4 with around 600 plugins and 318 mods following these Guides and it worked like a charm:

 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=a673fd58210cfa19&page=view&resid=A673FD58210CFA19!31855&parId=A673FD58210CFA19!31799&authkey=!AL4cksgXZNmXgZo&app=Excel

 

https://www.simsettlements.com/site/index.php?threads/bags_2-0-bake-a-game-save.11773/

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7090666-using-vortex-plugin-groups-and-load-order-rules/page-2

 

I doubt these Guys don´t know what they are doing :wink: I know Fallout4 structure is not the same as Skyrim, but I've seen lists for Skyrim too. Even on popular Skyrimse guides.

 

I agree if you are not careful you can mess up the cycled rules pretty badly, but if u take care and know your mods and your manager it works.

 

This is how I have done it so far and it worked:

 

I always let loot do the initial load order but never stick with it as I make my way through every mod, change the load order accordingly, and if needed assign it a new category(NOTE: NOT EVERY MOD HAS A ASSIGNED CATEGORY).

 

For that I need a general load order on how mods functions, better said; what gets loaded before what in the engine or when does it get loaded (for example patches are pretty much at the end,

where do you load textures? At the end? Or at the beginning?) for me personally textures came directly after the bug fixes, essential tools.

 

So that is one of the things I want to find out by asking which load order structure is the right one( or even a combined one).; I want to understand the process a little bit because that makes searching for problems a lot easier. And with my choice of mods and load order, there will be quite a few problems. This will give me a general idea of where it needs to go, and then I fine tune it IF NECESSARY. With my 600 plugins, there are quite a few mods needing special load order instructions. Also, I want to know so I can install them in a certain order( very important when dealing with problems like the recent papyrus and simplyknock dll problem). I certainly would not let vortex deal with this last problem automatically as it would result in more Problems then it resolves.

 

I´m sorry but I wanna be in control of my modding and know what I am doing, instead of letting LOOT automatically sort things. So if Problems arise I won´t just stand there finger in my mouth not knowing what to do. But I think we have different approaches :wink: I want to do as much manually as I can to understand it. I don´t really know how loot´s sorting is atm, but a year ago it was not that good and without manual placement, you did not get far with 600 plugins.

 

But I do agree with Rules and cyclic mess if one is not careful.

 

 

 

 

[HadToRegister]

I´m sorry, I don´t agree with most of what you said.

 

I Modded my Fallout 4 with around 600 plugins and 318 mods following these Guides and it worked like a charm:

 

 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=a673fd58210cfa19&page=view&resid=A673FD58210CFA19!31855&parId=A673FD58210CFA19!31799&authkey=!AL4cksgXZNmXgZo&app=Excel

 

https://www.simsettlements.com/site/index.php?threads/bags_2-0-bake-a-game-save.11773/

 

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7090666-using-vortex-plugin-groups-and-load-order-rules/page-2

 

I doubt these Guys don´t know what they are doing :wink: I know Fallout4 structure is not the same as Skyrim, but I've seen lists for Skyrim too. Even on popular Skyrimse guides.

 

I agree if you are not careful you can mess up the cycled rules pretty badly, but if u take care and know your mods and your manager it works.

 

This is how I have done it so far and it worked:

 

I always let loot do the initial load order but never stick with it as I make my way through every mod, change the load order accordingly, and if needed assign it a new category(NOTE: NOT EVERY MOD HAS A ASSIGNED CATEGORY).

 

For that I need a general load order on how mods functions, better said; what gets loaded before what in the engine or when does it get loaded (for example patches are pretty much at the end,

where do you load textures? At the end? Or at the beginning?) for me personally textures came directly after the bug fixes, essential tools.

 

So that is one of the things I want to find out by asking which load order structure is the right one( or even a combined one).; I want to understand the process a little bit because that makes searching for problems a lot easier. And with my choice of mods and load order, there will be quite a few problems. This will give me a general idea of where it needs to go, and then I fine tune it IF NECESSARY. With my 600 plugins, there are quite a few mods needing special load order instructions. Also, I want to know so I can install them in a certain order( very important when dealing with problems like the recent papyrus and simplyknock dll problem). I certainly would not let vortex deal with this last problem automatically as it would result in more Problems then it resolves.

 

I´m sorry but I wanna be in control of my modding and know what I am doing, instead of letting LOOT automatically sort things. So if Problems arise I won´t just stand there finger in my mouth not knowing what to do. But I think we have different approaches :wink: I want to do as much manually as I can to understand it. I don´t really know how loot´s sorting is atm, but a year ago it was not that good and without manual placement, you did not get far with 600 plugins.

 

But I do agree with Rules and cyclic mess if one is not careful.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, whatever

 

If you want to be in total control of your load order, then use Nexus Mod Manager, because it lets you put your load order any way you want it, no matter how good or bad.

That way you won't spend all your time fighting against Vortex and wasting your time.

 

LOOT is made by a team of people who bring each ESP into Xedit, and look at the conflicts and make rules for what esps/mods should load before or after others.

 

Since you want to know which one of the TWO articles on Load Order is the Correct one for Properly setting up Categories, then what that says to me, is that NEITHER of them are right, and instead based on Personal Opinion, because if there truly was a proper, infallible way to set up Categories, BOTH Articles would have the same identical layout, but they don't.

 

Which is why I don't follow 'opinion pieces" on proper load order layout, even those two 'experts' on load order don't agree with each other.

 

Anyway, was just trying to prevent you from spending a lot of time making a load order, considering that both articles don't even agree with each other, which caused you to ask the question in the first place, which for me, is a big red flag, because it shows that there's no "One true way"

[IsharaMeradin]

I think there is a little miscommunication going on here.

 

There is more to mods than just the plugin. Loose files are a consideration here. LOOT does not handle those, not even the version built into Vortex. Vortex, however, does provide rules to determine what loose files get used. The best course might be to run Vortex's built-in LOOT to get the load order. Make any necessary adjustments, though there shouldn't be too many these days. Then create whatever rules might be necessary for the individual files (meshes, textures) that you want to actually see in the game. Go slowly and test appearance and functionality every so often.

 

There is no "one way" to organize one's loose files. It will always boil down to user tastes. I would recommend grouping your mods together based upon the major function that they perform going from overhaul to general to specific.

 

As far as where in the overall scheme of the deployment / priority order, it doesn't really matter so long as the files you want used are the ones being used.

[HadToRegister]

I think there is a little miscommunication going on here.

 

There is more to mods than just the plugin. Loose files are a consideration here. LOOT does not handle those, not even the version built into Vortex. Vortex, however, does provide rules to determine what loose files get used. The best course might be to run Vortex's built-in LOOT to get the load order. Make any necessary adjustments, though there shouldn't be too many these days. Then create whatever rules might be necessary for the individual files (meshes, textures) that you want to actually see in the game. Go slowly and test appearance and functionality every so often.

 

There is no "one way" to organize one's loose files. It will always boil down to user tastes. I would recommend grouping your mods together based upon the major function that they perform going from overhaul to general to specific.

 

As far as where in the overall scheme of the deployment / priority order, it doesn't really matter so long as the files you want used are the ones being used.

 

 

That's mainly what I've been talking about.

 

Vortex is GREAT at telling you about file conflicts between the Meshes and Textures, and Vortex should DEFINITELY be allowed to handle those, but people have the power to pick LOAD BEFORE or LOAD AFTER, in order to determine which textures and meshes get overwritten or overwrite.

 

However, his main problem is going to be when he tries to put certain ESPS together, and he runs into adding the plugins to certain groups, and then tries to load plugin after Plugin B, and Plugin B happens to be assigned to a group that loads BEFORE the group that Plugin A is in. That's an instan Cyclic Rule.

Because it sounds like he's planning on assigning all of his ESPs to GROUPS, which is going to be a sorting problem

And like the picture I posted above of somebody doing exactly what I just described, and following a "Guide" that was their end result, because they had to make so many unnecessary rules.

That's why, when using Vortex it's better to only Fix any Conflicts that Vortex reports, and NOTHING else.

 

I've had people complaining about Vortex because they had to make "Hundreds of rules in order to get their ESPs in the right order, and I say, if you have to make Hundreds of Rules, then you're doing something really wrong, and forcing Vortex to do what it wasn't intended to do, which is why I suggested NMM, or maybe MO2 as well, because it's just going to be frustrating to do it with Vortex.

[cheffchantier]

I thank you both for your Insights. I will remember them.

 

 

The best course might be to run Vortex's built-in LOOT to get the load order. Make any necessary adjustments, though there shouldn't be too many these days. Then create whatever rules might be necessary for the individual files (meshes, textures) that you want to actually see in the game. Go slowly and test appearance and functionality every so often.

 

Thx, for the confirmation, I will continue to go about it as I have before. Good to know that there are fewer adjustments needed to be made than before.

 

My fear is because I have a lot of small mostly unknown mods, that are also mostly unknown of how they play with other mods. Not a lot of bug reports or forum entries for these mods. I have my doubts that the LOOT Team tests every mod on their compatibility , conflicts in xedit? What about scripting Problems i dont think that these can be identified in xedit that easily.

 

So I guess that means testing, testing, testing.

 

 

I would recommend grouping your mods together based upon the major function that they perform going from overhaul to general to specific.

 

That is partially what I came here for, thank you for this useful information. This will give me a starting point.

 

I will begin reviewing my load order and come up with groups that suit my needs :wink:

Edited May 13, 2021 by cheffchantier