Through the Valleys - PushTheWinButton's Vanilla Plus Modding Guide
Posted 12 June 2021 - 03:14 PM
also the link attached to "Oblivion Display Tweaks" sends you to this guide instead of the Display Tweaks mod page, at least for me
Posted 12 June 2021 - 04:10 PM
I've tried to fathom MOO before, but it has over 1200 scripts and many INIs and I don't have that kind of time haha. Every single feature of MOO is fully scripted, so it's a bit of a nightmare when it comes to compatibility. People don't realise that because they usually only check for conflicts with xEdit, which can only detect hard edits. You'd literally need to read every script to see exactly what it does and how. I also made Ascension because I wanted something more vanilla and simple.
Of topic, but we actually talk quite a bit in New Vegas modding circles about the 'old way' of making mods using hard edits rather than heavy scripting. We consider it better practice because it futureproofs mods by allowing people to easily modify and patch them with xEdit With scripted mods, only the author really fully understands what everything does.
Edited by PushTheWinButton, 12 June 2021 - 04:15 PM.
Posted 12 June 2021 - 05:56 PM
Edited by zymurgy65, 12 June 2021 - 05:57 PM.
Posted 12 June 2021 - 05:58 PM
I tried in all these years hundreds of mods in dozens of different combinations, and one of the few which NEVER gave me any compatibility problems is MOO. If you would take your time to read the "many INIs" (which are perfectly commented, explaining each and every single setting, even the names of each INI is self-explanatory), you would realize not only that you can turn on or off ANY feature of MOO, but also that MOO does that for you when detects a HUGE number of popular mods (going from other overhauls, through magic mods, to combat mods, just to name few).
Also, honestly, calling Wrye Bash a "legacy mod manager" or stating that is outdated is totally false (last update was a couple of days ago FYI). You should also note on the description page that your downloadable patch is just recycling some of the most popular tweaks present in WB Bashed Patch (which can apply those tweaks and do much more than that). The only really advantage that I see in using MO2 is the virtual folder technology, which at the same time I see as a kind of obstacle to new players/modders (Oblivion mods comment sections are literally full of people not managing to set up MO properly, I see the same problem afflicting Morrowind players as well...).
And about TES4Edit, you omit completely one of its main uses: cleaning mods from ITMs and UDRs. I donÄt think is something you should skip speaking about.
Edited by starlessmao81ac, 12 June 2021 - 06:00 PM.
Posted 12 June 2021 - 06:46 PM
Yeah, and this is the problem. All the changes MOO makes are 'soft' edits made at runtime, rather than 'hard' edits that are visible in xEdit. You don't know if it's causing conflicts, because you can't possibly fully understand how it works and what it edits without reading all those scripts. Only the author fully understands how their own mod works because of this, so you're essentially trusting that they a) haven't made a mistake in 1200+ scripts, b) have considered every possibility for how their systems can be tripped up by other mods yet to be made, and c) will provide continued support for the foreseeable future. Maybe it is perfect, in which case I'm not stopping you from using it, but I find that unlikely. And, like I said, I don't like some of its changes anyway, so that's why I've not used it.
?and one of the few which NEVER gave me any compatibility problems is MOO
I know, because I have it tracked and use it regularly. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still the same mod manager and lacks some incredibly useful modern futures—VFS being one of many. Even if MO2 had only one benefit, surely it would be reasonable to exploit that feature by using both mod managers together? I've never understood the objection to this, probably because they're all profoundly unreasonable. If Wrye had the ability to download directly from the Nexus, a VFS, and profiles, I might be swayed. But as it is, I don't see why it would be any better to lose all that just to use Wrye's features that I can still use by launching it through MO2.
?Also, honestly, calling Wrye Bash a "legacy mod manager" or stating that is outdated is totally false (last update was a couple of days ago FYI).
Setting up MO2 has become considerably easier since a recent update added support for launching OBSE automatically without the old manual installation workaround. That was partly why I wanted to make this guide, and base it around MO2. I have provided clear, step-by-step instructions so that users know exactly how to set this up, so an incorrect setup shouldn't be an issue if they are reading my guide. Any user inexperienced enough to mess that up could also easily mess up using Wrye, so the whole point is moot, honestly.
?Oblivion mods comment sections are literally full of people not managing to set up MO properly
Yeah, I might add that. I was aiming for concision, because the Other Tools section is basically just to point new players in the direction of where they can learn more. I have already checked all the mods in the guide, and any ITMs are intentional.
?And about TES4Edit, you omit completely one of its main uses: cleaning mods from ITMs and UDRs. I donÄt think is something you should skip speaking about.
Edited by PushTheWinButton, 12 June 2021 - 06:46 PM.
Posted 12 June 2021 - 07:55 PM
Posted 12 June 2021 - 08:20 PM
I guess the time i'll have to learn how to use MO2 is drawing really near.
If i may suggest two crucial mods MapMarkerOverhaul and WorldMapForAllWorldspaces; The first one is extremly useful (especially for Teleportation Services, the shrines) also the marker are really gorgeous and high customizable (Vanilla friendly). The second one is just a must. I don't know why in the vanilla they didnt make maps for these crucial part of the game aka useful and gorgeous.