Is enchanting a bit too dark for good characters?

[hyralux]

Hey guys, I was planning on making a new character and like many of you, started planning ahead on his skill development. I myself haven't ever attempted to play a "dark" character, preferring to be somewhere in between Good and Neutral. I had decided to go for a Nord battlemage and found myself reaching a brick wall when it came to what profession skill I wanted to spend my time on. I find myself being a bit hesitant on enchanting purely for its "Soul Consumption".

What do you guys think? I would also love to hear more of the process of soul gems. Do you think that it pushes the boundaries to take an animal or human's life energy?

[mightymuffin007]

I know there have been discussions on this elsewhere, as well as on Gopher's videos, but it really depends on how your character approaches the topic.

 

The first approach would be like most Nords in Skyrim - very anti-magic of any sort, especially Conjuration magicks. And in Skyrim (not previous games), Conjuration is the link to gaining souls. Thus if your character has a vehement disdain for Conjuration or magic all around, he probably wouldn't ever dabble in it - unless you allowed him to have a change in philosophy. Since you went for a battlemage route, your character probably be at least approving of non-Conjuration magic.

 

In the TES lore, there are two types of souls - black and white (taken from the unofficial tes wiki). Black souls come from NPCs (man, mer, and beasts), while white souls come from "lesser creatures" (animals, more or less). While I feel like the gameplay doesn't always match this (Falmer, who are devolved Snow Elves, now suddenly have white souls rather than black souls due to the game engine calling them creatures instead of NPCs), this distinction means that you can think of souls as like hunting animals for food. Hunters and fishers alike will hunt/fish in order to find food to continue their own life. It isn't evil to kill for sustenance, so killing for a soul should have the same concept. As a good person, you would want to "thank" them for giving you this meal/soul, or thank the gods for providing such things. You'd still be very anti-black soul gem, as that deals with the death of someone equal in standing to you.

 

Then of course you can be a necromancer...filthy icky necromancers...who care nothing for life and death but serve themselves...grumble grumble grumble...

 

You can find out more about this stuff from the Unofficial TES Wiki (just google UESPwiki), and just look through the lore pages on anything with souls. The one other caveat is something from Dawnguard, and to avoid spoilers, I'll just let you find out on your own.

 

I have always been interested in the idea of alternative soul gem processes, but the one I know of that comes closest would be Varla Stones from Oblivion - and those were only meant as recharge batteries instead of a true alternative. I guess I'm just surprised we can have blessed amulets, yet everyone seems content and unwilling to research or find an alternative (at least, no quest in the un-modded games I've ever encountered made it sound like an alternative was being developed).

 

For me, I ended up creating an alternative for my characters, saying they learned this spell somehow and were able to begin researching it (makes the college experience a little different besides the lackluster quest). I magically infuse gems with my own magicka, suffering a debuff in magicka for X time. Of course, I balance it by requiring formal training with the College of Winterhold first before I discover this "spell." As I research it, I get better as an enchanter, but there could be serious drawbacks. I end up using a dice roll to see how serious the debuff could be, use console commands, then keep a check on how long its been, then restore things. Maybe you'd rather have more micromanaging like that, and create a not really breaking lore but is totally not supported alternative to soul gems.

 

All in all - souls and enchanting are definitely one of those things that really comes down to your character's morality, and whether he/she can associate using an animal's soul to eating meat as well. Being a vegen probably makes that harder.

[RatcatcherOfKvatch]

Do you eat meat or tan hides? Same thing.

 

Black soul gems are a little different: do you loot the bodies of those you've justifiably killed? Soul trapping is the same thing.

 

If you only kill in self-defense the only ethical difference between looting and not looting is the conflict of interest creating an incentive to kill when a more peaceful solution might be possible. But harvesting black souls is just another form of looting, so there is no additional ethical dilemma.

 

If black souls are tortured for eternity or something that would change the ethical picture. You'd have to fill your black soul gems with Thalmor. I've heard that Dawnguard might address the issue, but I've protected myself from spoilers, so I won't actually know until I've completed the DLC.

[hyralux]

I really like this insightful responses, thank you! It seems strange that "Soul trapping" doesn't seem to have as much negative weight in a conversation as necromancy in most parts of Tamriel.

 

I feel like the meat and hides argument can be a very strong point until we come upon the discussion of an animals "Soul". That subject does not have a place here and is based more upon personal beliefs rather than general consensus. I personally understand killing an animal in self defense, that makes sense, but I've never been the type to shoot down a passive animal for sport. I feel like I'm blurring the lines between myself and my character, but I guess that's what video games are about: portraying ourselves in a more artistic, fantastical manner.

 

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that a soul gem doesn't actually capture a soul, per se, but rather an energy that binds the soul and the body. On the other hand, I've been told that the souls that are used in enchanting are released and return back to the Aetherius or "Immortal plane" to achieve eternal piece, reincarnation, or many other possibilities. I'm not sure if either of these theories are correct though. It's exciting how vague some of this stuff is. Bethesda keeps us thinking!

 

@mightymuffin007, I really like your ideas of improvisation! I actually thought about obtaining already filled soul gems and not soul trapping anything at all by either purchasing them or finding them in my travels. Thus, I'm releasing a soul from its containment and at least doing some good. I also miss sigil stones!

 

@RatcatcherofKvatch, Thalmor would do well for some black soul gems! They make themselves really hard to like..

Edited August 9, 2013 by hyralux

[ManleySteele]

This is an interesting question. I admit, I had never thought about it. In thinking about it, I couldn't help but consider alternatives. The first is the easiest. Never use any enchantments or enchanted gear. Don't trade in them. Don't sell them, don't buy them and don't make them. I feel that exceptions would always work their way into the game if I took this avenue. For instance, what about your wedding ring? That exception leads directly to the next alternative. Items directly enchanted by the gods. In my opinion the problem here is not good or evil, but deciding what is enchanted by the gods and what isn't. Of course some things are obvious, but others are fairly borderline. For instance, Dawnbreaker is a daedric artifact. Can a good character use it because its enchantment affects "evil" characters? There are several items in this category. Should temples sell "blessings" for armor, weapons, etc. How about dragon souls and daedric souls? Should daedric souls be the new "black" souls? Should enchantment by the player be limited to dragon souls? I'm not a fan of mods that limit choices. I prefer to set my own limitations in the game. That's why I won't consider a mod that eliminates fast travel, although I don't fast travel in a "real" game. It's all about choices for me. I want the ability to be evil. I just don't want to do it. What do you think?

[hyralux]

This is an interesting question. I admit, I had never thought about it. In thinking about it, I couldn't help but consider alternatives. The first is the easiest. Never use any enchantments or enchanted gear. Don't trade in them. Don't sell them, don't buy them and don't make them. I feel that exceptions would always work their way into the game if I took this avenue. For instance, what about your wedding ring? That exception leads directly to the next alternative. Items directly enchanted by the gods. In my opinion the problem here is not good or evil, but deciding what is enchanted by the gods and what isn't. Of course some things are obvious, but others are fairly borderline. For instance, Dawnbreaker is a daedric artifact. Can a good character use it because its enchantment affects "evil" characters? There are several items in this category. Should temples sell "blessings" for armor, weapons, etc. How about dragon souls and daedric souls? Should daedric souls be the new "black" souls? Should enchantment by the player be limited to dragon souls? I'm not a fan of mods that limit choices. I prefer to set my own limitations in the game. That's why I won't consider a mod that eliminates fast travel, although I don't fast travel in a "real" game. It's all about choices for me. I want the ability to be evil. I just don't want to do it. What do you think?

I absolutely agree with you. I don't fast travel because I feel it takes away from so much of what makes Skyrim a living, breathing place. I feel like things should be about what you choose is fun and always having an option to take a turn down a different path.

 

I've had plenty of characters that would have nothing to do with the Daedra, good or bad. Meridia stands for a lot of things a good character would absolutely agree with. On the other hand, she also aided Umeril the Unfeathered along with the ayleids in their fight against Pelinal and Allesia. It all comes down to what the individual would call good or bad. I could see a good aligned Altmer revering Meridia as a chief deity without question. A human may feel that her devout ways against necromancy would outweigh her negatives. Molag Bal, on the other hand, will never get anything out of me other than an axe in his face...

 

I guess what it really comes down to is that there are very few souls my character would want to expend just for the sake of a fiery effect on a sword. I think Bethesda meant to have white and black soul gems be a complete contrast from each other. One having a purely academic benefit, the other having a easier, more powerful, sinister use. I feel they unfortunately blur together when it comes to morality to me.

 

I would much rather have an option of what you said about the temple blessings. If there was another form of enchantment through the use of a divine or elemental force, like the fire I spout from my hand or divine influence, it would be a great way to give more options.

Edited August 10, 2013 by hyralux

[fifteenspades]

Why is it evil/dark to take the soul of a bear who was trying to KILL you?

[hyralux]

Why is it evil/dark to take the soul of a bear who was trying to KILL you?

It runs much deeper than that. Taking a soul isn't the same as killing. Many people believe that if you take a living beings soul you will completely erase it's entire existence. That bear could be attacking you for many different reasons, maybe he should be attacking you if you encroached or attacked him. It really just comes down to your beliefs, which is a discussion for somewhere else.

[fifteenspades]

Okay, how about this then. When a group of evil bandits attack you to rob/kill/maim you in w/e way. Bottom line they are evil.

If taking their souls is erasing their existence wouldn't you basically be cleansing an unclean soul? a good deed depending on your roleplay~

[hyralux]

Okay, how about this then. When a group of evil bandits attack you to rob/kill/maim you in w/e way. Bottom line they are evil.

If taking their souls is erasing their existence wouldn't you basically be cleansing an unclean soul? a good deed depending on your roleplay~

Yes, depending on your role play. It basically comes down to whether or not you believe destruction of the soul can be justified no matter what crime is committed.