Feedback on Collections: Play Ready only post-download processing

[nokturnihs]

Hi,

So - despite my personal distaste for the changes to the nexus policies implemented to make way to try out collections I tried out the collections feature on Cyberpunk 2077.

 

Pros:

- It did install all the mods.

- It was a way to discover mods I'd previously failed to notice.

 

Cons:

- It took forever as a free user (99-clicks to be precise as that was the number of items in the collection)

- the end result is a game that WILL CTD as soon as I launch it because no post-installation script to clean up the installation and actually... finish the installation of the modpack was performed.

 

My feedback:

 

- Collections were billed as a way for non-computer savvy folks or folks new to modding to be able to enjoy many mods easily. Mod Authors were required to forego their intellectual property rights to a degree to make this feature happen. Why then are you allowing collections to be posted that will result in MORE problems than if a person were to simply install a few suggested mods from say a youtube video. It seems to defeat the intent and cause more problems than it solves.

 

- Why are collections being posted that will 100% break people's games unless they're going in and performing manual file changes, which, while briefly discussed by Vortex in the form of alert boxes, large collections requiring 20-40 manual file edits to make the modpack work is ridiculous.

 

- Why isn't it a basic requirement that collections authors, once the install is complete have a fully configured modpack or at least provide options for collections installers to go through (like a FOMOD installer)?

 

- With the simple fact that as it stands collections are shipping incomplete and broken with zero liability for collections authors, absolutely no direct way to see comments BEFORE installation and zero effort in regards to verifying a mod collection in fact functions, why is it even an option.

 

I've created mods and mod edits in the past. While I've spent very little time familiarizing myself with Vortex's back-end capabilities having a method to run post-install collection scripts to make a collection function should be mandatory - at the very least to clean up unused garbage left over from the installation to save in disk for the end user.

 

I'll also point out that as a free user clicking 99*99 times to download a collection that doesn't function certainly does NOT inspire me to pay for the privilege of downloading a little faster a mod collection that does not work.

 

Nexus - If you want people to go premium and after the way you bend modders over to make collections happen, you need to at least make a feature that doesn't break game installs and currently that's what you're allowing to go up in collections.

[Guest deleted34304850]

i don't think anyone lost intellectual property rights - they just lost the abilty to remove their mods. that's not the same thing.

 

if the mod pack doesn't work for you - did you give feedback of your issues? remember - no-one twisted your arm here, you did all this yourself. don't like it, mod one file at a time - it still works.

 

also - as a free user - you get to click the mod page because thats how, eventually, mod authors - you know, the guys who did all the work you're complaining about for free get at least something for their efforts. if you don't want to click the button, pony up. it ain't difficult.

[nokturnihs]

So my topic post was to provide feedback for the Nexus to improve the feature. I was providing positive and negative feedback and offering considerations for the nexus devs to consider. I'm not sure you understand what feedback is used for based on your reply....

 

To a degree they did in fact lose creative control over their mods which is why I said "in-part" but that was probably unnecessary color on my part.

 

Yes I did leave feedback on the issues in the collection and left feedback on the collections feature so both can potentially be improved.

 

Of course I can still mod it one file at a time, that wasn't the point - the point is that if this is being billed as a way to make modding more accessible a basic level of functionality should be required to post a collection - mainly going to the effort of writing some form of post-install script (even a .bat file would do) that makes the mod functional on at least a basic level. It isn't rocket science and it a significantly simpler operation than the bar free users are expected to perform to use said functionality.

 

And yes, I realize the basic functionality differences here between free and premium users. It's a lengthy process and while I'm sure as a premium user it's much smoother - the current implementation isn't encouraging people to go premium or if it is, it's a predatory means of doing so.

 

I also realize it's modding - in and of it's nature there's gonna be crashes, gonna be bugs. the difference is KNOWING a collection, under a default installation without any additional input from a free OR premium user will 100% cause a game to CTD and having absolutely zero QC to ensure that installing a collection should at least boot the game or make the mod installation process simple for people new to modding (the intended audience).

 

I've been modding games for 20 years. I've written mods and made many edits to mods in many different games. I can and do install my mods without issue. I tried this feature to see if it functioned as advertised or even came close - as an experiment to see what it was like in a separate modding profile. Most of my non-IT friends cannot and might look at collections as an option to embrace modding but as the feature exists at present - it's either going to drive them away from modding for good or I'm gonna be the one fixing their mod installations because the collections "author" could not be bothered to make a script to clean up the manual installation process (pretty much every game has at least a few manual mod installation steps - something easily corrected with a simple bash/.bat script most the time.)

 

As the feature stands one could absolutely create collections in droves with the sole purpose of causing games to CTD which would change the narrative or perception of this feature to the outside world. I don't think anyone wants that but there's nothing stopping this at the moment and as detailed above it's easy enough to do by accident. There's no accountability to the collections "authors" and it's still modding.... but maybe there should be? Mod Authors are held to a certain community standard to support their mods and creating mods is significanlty more challenging than throwing together a collection.

 

I'll also point out it's not exactly a new thing having post-install or secondary setup scripts in the modding space - Minecraft is just one example that's been doing this for years and years - and if vortex isn't capable of running a .bat file to remove extra files from a collection install then that's a function that should be considered. If collections "authors" can't put together a script to do that I don't know that the collection should be publicly accessible until a basic "functional" state can be reached in the process. It's one thing to share mod collections with your friends and walk them through the special extra steps, another is to put out an incomplete process and not even bothering to write out a guide on completing the installation steps that aren't automated via this feature.

[showler]

Your "99 click" argument is ridiculous. If you install 99 mods, you need to click download 99 times. Doesn't matter whether you are installing them as a Collection or as 99 separately selected mods. There is no difference in the amount of time or effort required.

 

FOMODs exist because the Bethesda modding community developed, tested and improved these tools over a couple of decades. They are not a Vortex thing or a Collections thing, they are a BGS modding thing. If CP77 players want the same functionality then the CP77 modding community needs to get to work creating comparable tools. Otherwise, you'll have to do the manual editing and the most you can hope for from a Collection is a good set of instructions. This is NOT something the Vortex developers can do anything about.

 

I've no idea what you mean by "absolutely no direct way to see comments BEFORE installation"? The comments for the Collection are accessible at any time and the comments for the mods are accessible from the mod page at any time.

[Guest deleted34304850]

So my topic post was to provide feedback for the Nexus to improve the feature. I was providing positive and negative feedback and offering considerations for the nexus devs to consider. I'm not sure you understand what feedback is used for based on your reply....

 

your feedback was nothing more than an entitled rant.

my reply was designed to point out obvious flaws in your "feedback", namely accusing nexusmods of stealing intellectual property from mod authors - which, honestly - if you get that wrong - should disqualify the rest of your feedback from being taken seriously.

 

the rest of your word salad and subsequent response is just gibberish and so full of holes and inaccuracies it's not even funny. also, i don't need your modding "cv". you think it gives your word salad some sort of credence? it doesn't.

[nokturnihs]

Your "99 click" argument is ridiculous. If you install 99 mods, you need to click download 99 times. Doesn't matter whether you are installing them as a Collection or as 99 separately selected mods. There is no difference in the amount of time or effort required.

 

FOMODs exist because the Bethesda modding community developed, tested and improved these tools over a couple of decades. They are not a Vortex thing or a Collections thing, they are a BGS modding thing. If CP77 players want the same functionality then the CP77 modding community needs to get to work creating comparable tools. Otherwise, you'll have to do the manual editing and the most you can hope for from a Collection is a good set of instructions. This is NOT something the Vortex developers can do anything about.

 

I've no idea what you mean by "absolutely no direct way to see comments BEFORE installation"? The comments for the Collection are accessible at any time and the comments for the mods are accessible from the mod page at any time.[/size]

The comment about comments you are right. It's less obvious than a traditional mod listing but comments are there. I found it later and didn't go back and edit.

 

The 99*99 was a typo. It is 99+99 for that particular collection. I maintain my position that it doesn't incentivize people going premium.

 

And your argument that the reason FOMOD installers are a thing is because BGS modders made them is far more ridiculous considering scripting and automation of executions existed since the days of ATARI Basic - it's just scripted input and I'll point out several CP2077 mods already do this though not all. Nexus absolutely should have that functionality built-in as part of their collection feature. Or at least require an installation guide for posting collections publicly so that incompetent collection "authors" aren't negatively impacting the collection experience.

[nokturnihs]

 

So my topic post was to provide feedback for the Nexus to improve the feature. I was providing positive and negative feedback and offering considerations for the nexus devs to consider. I'm not sure you understand what feedback is used for based on your reply....

 

your feedback was nothing more than an entitled rant.

 

my reply was designed to point out obvious flaws in your "feedback", namely accusing nexusmods of stealing intellectual property from mod authors - which, honestly - if you get that wrong - should disqualify the rest of your feedback from being taken seriously.

 

the rest of your word salad and subsequent response is just gibberish and so full of holes and inaccuracies it's not even funny. also, i don't need your modding "cv". you think it gives your word salad some sort of credence? it doesn't.

I disagree. It seemed to me you were employing fanboi defense mechanics and trying to shut down a narrative because it didn't align with your emotional devotion to the product in question.

 

Again I'll point out that if the purpose of your reply was to protect your emotional investment in nexus collections it serves absolutely no purpose in regards to improving the collections feature. If anything there's a sense of entitlement from the fanbois who cannot ever accept any kind of negative feedback or criticism at all on "their thing" without engaging in bullying tactics.

 

Last my "modding cv" was to point out I'm well aware of the technical aspects you initially inferred I was too stupid to understand, which was what you intended to infer and was incorrect in your assumptions. It wasn't to impress but to instead invalidate your harassment. I'm sorry my ability to communicate at length on a topic intimidates or frustrates you (word salad).

[showler]

I think you are making a mistake in assuming that it is a goal of the Nexus to "incentivize people going premium." There is a permanent policy here that nothing be locked behind Premium status. All Premium does is change the payment method from "advertising revenue" to "direct fee". I'm sure there are benefits to more people going Premium (if the increase is sufficient then it provides more funds for the DP program, for one), but I've never seen the Nexus try to push it.

 

And while I'm sure there are methods to have file operations performed automatically, I'm not sure there is a way to do so without exposing people's computers to risk unless the modding community builds a method that Vortex can access.

 

As for requiring the Curators to have proper instructions: That is probably too labor intensive a task for such a small company. The idea is for the Collections users to provide feedback that makes bad Collections drop down the list and good ones rise up it. The particular Collection you downloaded had shockingly little information filled out on the Collections page and only a 77% success rate. But you downloaded it anyway. That's always going to be a risk with Collections.

 

Honestly, you're asking for a level of staff involvement in Collections that even companies like Microsoft and Valve can't provide. Modding is a hobby with risks. Worse comes to worst, you delete the Collection and repair your install.

[xrayy]

at least for me some aspects mentioned by nokturnihs sound plausible and i miss some respect for valid feedback content brought up.

to react on this content by saying it is a rant does not show much motivation to deal with the feedback.

 

plausible sounds for me:

- one of the nexusmods and the enlarged "collections team" goals is to make modding easier which sounds good - at least this is what the mainstream gamer believes will happen and what the "collections team" communicates at least since july 2021.

- quality and stability of collections should be also some of the main goals - at least this was my impression and the reason to stop features, working for a decade, like deletion of mods.

- broken and incomplete collections are a responsibility of the collection curator and he should be able to deal with it and it is the responsibility of the mainstream gamer who like to use a collection to follow installation instructions.

 

can anyone confirm this ?

[showler]

Nothing you said is wrong, but consider that Nexus has never moderated mod uploads based on their own opinions of the quality of said mod. As long as a mod doesn't violate actual rules, which are minimal, then modders are able to upload whatever they have and users are free to download it or not.

 

Why would you expect Collections to suddenly alter this policy?

 

There are going to be some bad Collections. Everyone knew this from the beginning. It's no different from a bad mod. As long as it is not in violation of the rules there isn't much to do about it.