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#11
RoNin1971

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This is actually one of the very first thing's I found "wrong" about this game :laugh:
Straight after the character creation I was standing there in the bathroom, looked at the mirror and I remember thinking:....
"what? No reflection, hmmm. Why do most of these games forego mirror reflections? Dukenuke'm already had those for F*sake, and here we are 20 years on, but its to much trouble to have a "real" mirror in my bathroom."

full-fledged ray tracing technology appeared only in 2018. In all early games, crutches with planar cameras and augmented spaces. It was never really a reflection. fo4 has Screen Space Reflections technology. The technology is there, but bethesda probably abandoned mirrors in the game simply to save resources. You can probably come up with some methods of blurring such an image, similar to games with similar technology. Pseudo pbr. Starfield will already have nvidea retracing. Accordingly, there will be normal mirrors.

 

I know.

but would expect them to come up with ways to at least fake it. Just like they faked it with DN. (and consequently it was only in that one place.)

 

I remember working on my 3D starwars models & animations around that time. Back then I used 7 pc's in a network with 3D Studio (R2-R4) for 6 months to create a 1 minute animation, with ray tracing. Some frames took more as a day to render, and that at 320x200 and 640x480. A modern day game has a 1000x more detail at 60fps, with resources to spare. It's actually pretty amazing to see how far we've come in such short time if you think about it.



#12
South8028

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This is actually one of the very first thing's I found "wrong" about this game :laugh:
Straight after the character creation I was standing there in the bathroom, looked at the mirror and I remember thinking:....
"what? No reflection, hmmm. Why do most of these games forego mirror reflections? Dukenuke'm already had those for F*sake, and here we are 20 years on, but its to much trouble to have a "real" mirror in my bathroom."

full-fledged ray tracing technology appeared only in 2018. In all early games, crutches with planar cameras and augmented spaces. It was never really a reflection. fo4 has Screen Space Reflections technology. The technology is there, but bethesda probably abandoned mirrors in the game simply to save resources. You can probably come up with some methods of blurring such an image, similar to games with similar technology. Pseudo pbr. Starfield will already have nvidea retracing. Accordingly, there will be normal mirrors.
 
I know.
but would expect them to come up with ways to at least fake it. Just like they faked it with DN. (and consequently it was only in that one place.)
 
I remember working on my 3D starwars models & animations around that time. Back then I used 7 pc's in a network with 3D Studio (R2-R4) for 6 months to create a 1 minute animation, with ray tracing. Some frames took more as a day to render, and that at 320x200 and 640x480. A modern day game has a 1000x more detail at 60fps, with resources to spare. It's actually pretty amazing to see how far we've come in such short time if you think about it.
well, who the hell knows. 30 years ago, watching The Lawnmower Man, then Ghost in the Shell, The Matrix, Johnny Mnemonic, and so on, many people thought that we would live in the embodiment of cyberpunk, in the world of augmented and virtual reality and all that. ) But, I can't live without a smartphone, for example. I broke my smartphone. For a week I was walking around with an old smartphone and I had a drug withdrawal because pages and applications opened slowly. A smartphone should always please. In the toilet and on the bed. However, considering that my mental health depends on the existence of just three monopolies. asml, tsmc, samsung... I don't feel safe. Something will happen to one of these companies, or their logistics. Breakdown will begin. )

#13
Blinxys

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Back closer to the point. Have commented on no mirror reflection space here in the past. Yes, it is an odd omission. Water has reflections (vastly improved by enb), so... It stands to reason this could be applied to mirrors.

 

The takeaway is... RTX cards can do real-time ray tracing, meaning a hall of mirrors, or even a few opposing ones, could potentially cripple frame rates in some areas. In contrast water reflections are sort of one way and unopposed (little chance of infinite Mandala Effect). This is all theoretical of course, not sure exactly what the in-game mechanics fiunction. Incidentally, IIRC Codsworth's shell does have room reflection in the prewar house. (Though those might be a a clever cubemap, it is a different texture/model/character than post-war codsworth). Cubemaps are also rather vestigial with real-time ray tracing tech available. But, the last release of this game was in 2016 pre 2018 mentioned by  @South8028 .

 

Forgivable, but certainly someone might update this, the multi-texture concept or surface with high enough metallic sheen should be able to do it alright.



#14
RoNin1971

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Back closer to the point. Have commented on no mirror reflection space here in the past. Yes, it is an odd omission. Water has reflections (vastly improved by enb), so... It stands to reason this could be applied to mirrors.

 

The takeaway is... RTX cards can do real-time ray tracing, meaning a hall of mirrors, or even a few opposing ones, could potentially cripple frame rates in some areas. In contrast water reflections are sort of one way and unopposed (little chance of infinite Mandala Effect). This is all theoretical of course, not sure exactly what the in-game mechanics fiunction. Incidentally, IIRC Codsworth's shell does have room reflection in the prewar house. (Though those might be a a clever cubemap, it is a different texture/model/character than post-war codsworth). Cubemaps are also rather vestigial with real-time ray tracing tech available. But, the last release of this game was in 2016 pre 2018 mentioned by  @South8028 .

 

Forgivable, but certainly someone might update this, the multi-texture concept or surface with high enough metallic sheen should be able to do it alright.

that's an interesting 'problem' you mentioned there. With only 2 mirrors you could lock it into calculating to infinity (just like the mirror image). In theory at least. Which would be a serious problem unless you make sure it only mirrors this a few times instead of infinitely.



#15
South8028

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Back closer to the point. Have commented on no mirror reflection space here in the past. Yes, it is an odd omission. Water has reflections (vastly improved by enb), so... It stands to reason this could be applied to mirrors.
 
The takeaway is... RTX cards can do real-time ray tracing, meaning a hall of mirrors, or even a few opposing ones, could potentially cripple frame rates in some areas. In contrast water reflections are sort of one way and unopposed (little chance of infinite Mandala Effect). This is all theoretical of course, not sure exactly what the in-game mechanics fiunction. Incidentally, IIRC Codsworth's shell does have room reflection in the prewar house. (Though those might be a a clever cubemap, it is a different texture/model/character than post-war codsworth). Cubemaps are also rather vestigial with real-time ray tracing tech available. But, the last release of this game was in 2016 pre 2018 mentioned by  @South8028 .
 
Forgivable, but certainly someone might update this, the multi-texture concept or surface with high enough metallic sheen should be able to do it alright.

that's an interesting 'problem' you mentioned there. With only 2 mirrors you could lock it into calculating to infinity (just like the mirror image). In theory at least. Which would be a serious problem unless you make sure it only mirrors this a few times instead of infinitely.
strangely enough, it does not load.In ue5 has RTR. There is an example of mutual reflection of the surfaces of 2 pans. There is no fps drop. The surfaces are simply reflected in each other, there is no infinite reflection. But the most detailed reflection of ue5 is RTT. This is a reflection in glass surfaces. I don't know any examples yet.

Edited by South8028, 12 October 2022 - 11:08 am.


#16
Blinxys

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strangely enough, it does not load.In ue5 has RTR. There is an example of mutual reflection of the surfaces of 2 pans. There is no fps drop. The surfaces are simply reflected in each other, there is no infinite reflection. But the most detailed reflection of ue5 is RTT. This is a reflection in glass surfaces. I don't know any examples yet.

 

Unsure what you mean by "It does not load".

 

Looking into your response further, not to really keep the conversation going, since ue5 is not Fallout 4 (yet, but someone was working on this a while back)...

 

Anyway, UE 5.0 Hardware Raytracing Documentation States:

 

Ray Traced Translucency (RTT):

WARNING: This feature of ray tracing is deprecated and may be removed in a future release.

Defined as: Ray Traced Translucency accurately represents glass and liquid materials with physically correct reflections, absorption, and refraction on transparent surfaces.

 

Ray Traced Reflections (RTR)

WARNING: This feature of ray tracing is deprecated and may be removed in a future release.

Defined as: simulates accurate environment representation supporting multiple reflection bounces.

The example shows a single bounce of ray traced reflections compared to multiple bounces of ray traced reflection. Using multiple bounces creates real-time inter-reflection between reflective surfaces in the scene. (Emphasis mine).

 

n contrast, Screen Space Reflections (SSR), Planar Reflections, or even Reflection Capture Actors cannot capture the entire scene dynamically nor does it have some of the limitations present in these other reflection methods.

 
In this comparison, SSR is only capable of a single reflection bounce and is limited to what is visible on the screen for representation. On the other hand, RTR is capable of multiple bounces and is not limited to what is visible, meaning that we can visibly see the sides of the book, reflected floor behind the camera, and additional lightings being reflected on surfaces coming through the window.
 
Note: FO4 Relies on SSR (mostly).
Also noted on referenced page: This page was written for a previous version of Unreal Engine and has not been updated for the current Unreal Engine 5.0 release.

 

 
Hypothesis: UE5 is using a nerfed (Single Bounce) version of RTR if it does not Hall of Mirrors by definition provided, basically SSR. :ermm:
Observation: As soon as the hardware catches up with the unfathomably complex goal of two decades, the whole thing will be sh*t-canned for something that renders said hardware obsolete, forcing upgrades at obscene premiums. Then the market cries consumer confidence is low. (Any wonder people are still willing to play with a 7 year old game then)?
 
A side note: It's Fancy to use acronyms but generally impolite/incorrect to not define them in context, (proverbial antecedent without a pronoun problem, as in "it does not load. What is "It" in this context)? (No harm meant in saying this).
 
This was posted as a PSA (Public Service Announcement) for the edification of drive-by readers, and to advance general community information and reference.


#17
pepperman35

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Mirror Pack posted as a modders resource.  Adds in a few unbroken mirrors for mod creators to use.



#18
Blinxys

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Well now, that is special! :cool:

Nice job, great timing!

But is it SSR, RTR, RTT or, what? J/K :tongue: 



#19
South8028

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strangely enough, it does not load.In ue5 has RTR. There is an example of mutual reflection of the surfaces of 2 pans. There is no fps drop. The surfaces are simply reflected in each other, there is no infinite reflection. But the most detailed reflection of ue5 is RTT. This is a reflection in glass surfaces. I don't know any examples yet.

 
Unsure what you mean by "It does not load".
 
Looking into your response further, not to really keep the conversation going, since ue5 is not Fallout 4 (yet, but someone was working on this a while back)...
 
Anyway, UE 5.0 Hardware Raytracing Documentation States:
 

Ray Traced Translucency (RTT):
WARNING: This feature of ray tracing is deprecated and may be removed in a future release.
Defined as: Ray Traced Translucency accurately represents glass and liquid materials with physically correct reflections, absorption, and refraction on transparent surfaces.
 
Ray Traced Reflections (RTR)
WARNING: This feature of ray tracing is deprecated and may be removed in a future release.
Defined as: simulates accurate environment representation supporting multiple reflection bounces.
The example shows a single bounce of ray traced reflections compared to multiple bounces of ray traced reflection. Using multiple bounces creates real-time inter-reflection between reflective surfaces in the scene. (Emphasis mine).
 
n contrast, Screen Space Reflections (SSR), Planar Reflections, or even Reflection Capture Actors cannot capture the entire scene dynamically nor does it have some of the limitations present in these other reflection methods.

 
In this comparison, SSR is only capable of a single reflection bounce and is limited to what is visible on the screen for representation. On the other hand, RTR is capable of multiple bounces and is not limited to what is visible, meaning that we can visibly see the sides of the book, reflected floor behind the camera, and additional lightings being reflected on surfaces coming through the window.
 
Note: FO4 Relies on SSR (mostly).
Also noted on referenced page: This page was written for a previous version of Unreal Engine and has not been updated for the current Unreal Engine 5.0 release.
 


 
Hypothesis: UE5 is using a nerfed (Single Bounce) version of RTR if it does not Hall of Mirrors by definition provided, basically SSR. :ermm:
Observation: As soon as the hardware catches up with the unfathomably complex goal of two decades, the whole thing will be sh*t-canned for something that renders said hardware obsolete, forcing upgrades at obscene premiums. Then the market cries consumer confidence is low. (Any wonder people are still willing to play with a 7 year old game then)?
 
A side note: It's Fancy to use acronyms but generally impolite/incorrect to not define them in context, (proverbial antecedent without a pronoun problem, as in "it does not load. What is "It" in this context)? (No harm meant in saying this).
 
This was posted as a PSA (Public Service Announcement) for the edification of drive-by readers, and to advance general community information and reference.
Man, I'm just having trouble with English. I am not always able to formulate a sentence correctly, and Google translator is not always able to translate correctly. Only and everything. ) Ronin was interested in the occurrence of an infinite calculation of the reflection in the reflection. I wrote that in ue5 there is no such problem. The two surfaces are reflected in each other without devouring a huge amount of fps.

#20
Blinxys

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Oh man, now I feel bad. :sweat: Your communication was received as if you were a native speaker by what you expressed well enough.

My apologies.

I did say "no harm meant", what I was referring to is a common English mistake by those that have spoken the language daily for their whole life.

 

Am I to understand you meant the infinite reflection (it) does not load?

That Does make sense now.

 

If you read the quoted portion of my response again apparently UE5 is also "faking RTR" a bit.

If RTR was doing what it claims it would indeed reflect ad infinitum until it died.

Changing position in the slightest would repeat the process exponentially.

(Like dressing room mirrors).

 

Thank you for your insight, which forced me to look up RTR, RTT on UE5 engine site and did clarify current/future state-of-the-art for me.







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