Destruction magic tips

[MidevalGuy]

 

Regarding the Melees VS Mages question, I have to say one more thing. I've played a LOT of MMORPGs where we can pick sorcerers / wizzards / fighters / paladins, etc. And I always see this:

 

Fighter / Paladin = have melee but normal attacks, strength, good defense

Sorcerer / Wizzard = have ranged but strong attacks, buffs, weak defense

 

So in every RPG styled game, where is given us a chance to choose between a sword or a spell, we already assume that the spell user will have a much stronger attack, to compensate the lacking defense (without armor, only clothes). Likewise, a sword user will have a medium / high attack, but very good defenses and resilience.

 

So, if any character at all should have a 1 hit capability, it should be a spellcaster, not a sword fighter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all classic "knight or mage" style RPGs follow these rules. Try Dungeons and Dragons Online, for example, and you will see who are the only classes doing 1 hit kills...

 

This is what I was trying to state in the post above yours.

 

Bethesda's system IS unbalanced because it handicaps Mages by reducing the spell cost... That isn't inherently isn't bad and should be a part of any magic leveling system.... But it also doesn't allow the magnitude of spells to increase relative to the increased cost even with cost reductions in place that aren't that much e.g. 10%, 15%, etc.

 

In other words, it still costs far too much magicka to use "powerful" spells at high levels, both player level and higher difficulties compared to the effectiveness of those spells.

 

For example, Adept level spells can cost TRIPLE digit mana to cast! The Bound Bow (Conjuration) costs 180 to cast and only lasts 120 seconds. That's insane, IMO. That is a clear sign the system is not balanced because while higher level spells should cost more they shouldn't cost THAT much at mid-levels since Adept is not Expert, or Master and the effectiveness of the spells themselves aren't worth the triple-digit mana deficit to cast them. This is why the majority of players prefer mods that give increased spell damage / length over mana reduction because then the risk/reward of casting them is worth it.

 

Also, if we are going to get technical, there is a point of diminishing returns all RPGs have where all builds are going to be able to one-hit (spell, melee) enemies toward the end of the game. That's just the bell curve of RPGs where players go from zero to hero. In fact, that's traditionally the goal: To be God-like toward the end of the game because players have invested hours upon hours leveling up to that point. So, the argument any class should not be able to one-hit kill things is moot when talking about RPGs since it is an inherent part of the game's design to begin with. Skyrim also suffers from the fact that Smithing and Enchanting are also "broken", so melee builds that normally shouldn't be able to do that amount of damage were able to do it from day one and this made Mages seem even more under powered as a result.

[marciosilva]

I'm reminding myself of Adrianne Avenicci now... But, all I want is a fair chance :D

 

I just want to be able to fight my enemies without having to press Q constantly to spam mana and heal potions.. Its just SOOO game-breaking. I don't mind using a strong potion every now and then, but all the time? Each 3 or 4 seconds? It breaks the combat itself, and I end up spending more time in the Favorites menu, than in the fight itself. And if I use up my mana to heal, oops, there I need to press Q again to drink a magicka pot...

 

I don't want to 1 hit-kill enemies, I feel it would be as much unbalanced as the enemies 1 hit-killing me. Only by now, I'm starting to get more dragon encounters, because until now, I had plenty of shouts to unlock. Feels sad at level 20+ , to have only 2 or 3 shouts to use. So the shouts are starting to help a bit now in the fights. Note: I rarely use fast-travel, for immersive reasons, and also to help me get more dragon encounters per game-time.

 

Meanwhile, I'm using 2 mods for now to make my life a little less harsh: 1 to improve magicka regeneration rate from 33% to 66% (only a slight push, but doesn't feel so restricted), and another to adjust perk distribution and spell powers, as have been mentioned in this thread.

Edited November 10, 2013 by marciosilva

[MidevalGuy]

Don't try and convince Lord Garon, or others who think the vanilla system is fine.

 

That's their prerogative, but consider this: If the majority of gamers AND game designers shared their view of how magic "should" work then there wouldn't be overhaul mods, nor would most Medieval-themed Fantasy games use a different (traditional) model entirely.

 

Also, getting back to what I posted earlier...

 

Skyrim (Bethesda games) is the only game where players will never become God-like simply because of the lame enemy scaling. Even at level 81, there will always be something stronger (even if by one level), so there is no "maxing out" builds by legitimate means. This is where the enchanting and smithing exploits and imbalances were discovered. Players needed increased damage on higher difficulties because of the damn scaling, so players inevitably overpowered their gear to the point it became ridiculous. This can be attributed to the developers not testing the higher level difficulties and/or letting those exploits and imbalances in smithing and enchanting be present in the final game which most developers would have eliminated, or put a cap on before release.

Edited November 10, 2013 by MidevalGuy

[Lord Garon]

Geez, I didn't mean to start a war; I was just trying to give some advice and examples on vanilla mage play. A lot of new mage players "seem" not to take advantage of all the "mage" stuff in Skyrim, like racial attributes, powers, standing stones, quest rewards, etc. A game isn't about playing on your terms, its all about playing on the game's terms: figuring out what needs to be done and planning the best way to do it. That's what makes it different from other games. I play video games for fun and like challenges, I like being forced to figure things out in a fun setting. It's fun for me to figure out how to make magic and mages work in the world of Skyrim, that's all. I don't want to fight about it, just help others enjoy my (still) favorite game.

 

I mod all kinds of stuff in Skyrim, but its usually things which just "aren't there" (Frostfall, RND, etc). I just don't see the need to change basic game constructs to make it like "all the other" games out there. Its a unique game because of the way things work. I just like exploring around in the developer's heads; there's usually reasons they did what they did and its fun to figure them out.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Lord Garon

[MidevalGuy]

We're not saying anybody can't play the game the way they want.

 

The issue the OP and I had is with your statement we (and presumably others who feel similar) want to be able to one-shot things with magic when that is the farthest from the truth. We just want (what we consider) a more user-friendly and balanced gaming experience with magic compared to the vanilla system. If you think it's fine the way it is, cool. No harm, no foul.

 

I, too, play games for fun, but when something just seems "off" to me, I always take it upon myself to dig deeper (into game design, developer philosophy) to see if I am right, or if it's just a matter of personal preference. Ninety percent of the time it's not just personal taste since others often feel the same way about certain aspects e.g. Why doesn't vanilla Skryim provide horses for your followers? Something like this just seems illogical since the player has one, but his/her followers have to run behind them as they travel long distances across the land? Not only is it inefficient, but it's also immersion breaking, too.

 

Not to get too far OT, but...

 

As I have stated in other threads, I applaud Bethesda for thinking out of the box and trying to evolve RPGs from the traditional D&D system that dominated games up to just a few years ago (Fallout 3, FO:NV). It's obviously a grand experiment and one that is still in flux and the results have been fairly successful given the popularity and financial boom TES has provided them. There are just certain decisions/elements/choices I don't agree with and it's not just because I want certain things to be a certain way because I say so, it's because some of their choices are just odd (IMO) and aren't helping RPGs evolve even if they think they are, IMHO.

 

For example, I touched on this earlier in this thread and that is a lot of these combat overhaul mods don't address the root of the problem and that is provide better AI that uses real tactics in order to provide a legitimate challenge vs. buffing, or nerfing damage outputs. I am aware moders can't fix everything since they are limited by the core engine, but this goes back to Bethesda and certain decisions/limitations (last gen consoles) taking priority over things that would actually (IMO) help evolve the RPG genre as a whole.

[Shadeybladey]

In the traditional AD&D system, no low level Mage would have any business travelling around on his own and never using Fast Travel, or horses or carriages. He's just asking to be killed by a random wolf. And, traditionally, he would not be able to cast any more spells after his single Magick Missile until he had rested.

 

Skyrim's mega-rapid Health, Stamina and Magicka regeneration rate is a massive departure even from Daggerfall and Morrowind. True, it slows down during combat and Master Level spells ARE underpowered, but the Apprentice to Expert levels spells are not really underpowered for their Magicka cost as long as you put most points into Magicka rather than Health and Stamina and use Perks, potions and items that reduce casting cost.

 

You can get Expert spell casting cost down to almost nothing at mid-levels, so you can dual-cast powerful spells over and over and over.

 

True, Enchanting and Alchemy are broken as well, but One-Handed, Two-Handed, Archery, Light Armour and Heavy Armour are even more broken.

 

Do these mods that increase spell Magnitude and Duration also abolish magicka cost reduction? Or do they increase magicka cost with Mag and Dur so that Perks etc reduce it to something more manageable without it dwindling to no cost at all?

 

~.~

[Lord Garon]

 

 

 

All my previous Skyrim characters have been melee, so I'm playing a mage now focusing on destruction magic.

...

Bearing all this in mind, then why do the Dwarven Spheres need 3 fireball hits to get killed??

...

 

Well, why do dragons need more than one hit to kill? Some mobs are stronger than others. Hint: Try Shock spells on automatons.

 

You seem to have the impression that a mage should be able to 1-shot anything,

 

(...)

 

...

 

So in every RPG styled game, where is given us a chance to choose between a sword or a spell, we already assume that the spell user will have a much stronger attack, to compensate the lacking defense (without armor, only clothes). Likewise, a sword user will have a medium / high attack, but very good defenses and resilience.

...

 

Then Skyrim would just be like "every other RPG styled game". Its not. You can't use other game mechanics to judge Skyrim; its these exact differences which make different games.

 

Most places in Skyrim are "leveled"; the bad guys will be scaled above your character's level. Some places are fixed and have low or very high level mobs from the beginning of the game. If you're having a hard time somewhere or with someone/something, leave, figure out what you need, get it, and go back. That's the plan for any character type, not just mages.

 

I see a lot of new mage players select Magicka on level up early on, thinking it's the most important thing for a mage. Its not; take more health than magicka early on. Take the lesson of the cave and imagine what you need to own that guy. BTW, being a mage has nothing to do with that "problem", the bad guy would also do the same damage to a warrior. A warrior just might be able to melee the guy quicker, but two fireballs would take him out, as well. A fireball took 80% of your health. You either need more health, or protection from fireballs. If the guy can spam fireballs (he might have a fireball staff), more health will only delay the inevitable, but that gives you time to react. You need protection, healing, or the ability to use his fireballs against him; a better healing spell, magic/fire resistance, a ward, or an absorb spell ability to replenish your own magicka as he blasts you. Run away, get one or more of the preceding, and go back. It will probably take a few times. But, when you finally put that $%$# down, it will be very rewarding and your mage's abilities will start reflecting what's actually needed for a mage in Skyrim, not what "seems" to be important from other RPG game experiences. Its more about defensive stuff in Skyrim, than offensive stuff. That may be counter to "other games", but once you get it down your mage will start owning things. In fact, IMHO, mages are probably the strongest builds on lower difficulty levels. You just need to figure out why and practice makes perfect.

 

I'm not diminishing the frustration you feel; it took me a LONG time and many posts in the Spoilers Forum before I "snapped" on mages. Once I did, they became my favorite character types. But, whatever you do, just have fun, even if you need to mod the crap out of magic. Playing games is all about fun; do what it takes, I say.

[MidevalGuy]

 

Do these mods that increase spell Magnitude and Duration also abolish magicka cost reduction? Or do they increase magicka cost with Mag and Dur so that Perks etc reduce it to something more manageable without it dwindling to no cost at all?

 

~.~

 

What these mods usually do is swap the cost reduction you get from vanilla gear and perks to potions you buy/mix/find and take the increased magnitude from vanilla potions and put them onto gear and into the skill tree perks. It's a basic 1:1 switch, more or less. True, the mod author has a lot of say on what he thinks (or doesn't think) is balanced, but the ones I use try and keep as close to vanilla values as possible because they DON'T want Mages / Magic to become overpowered as a result.

 

There is still the issue of cost reduction, but like you wrote, it's more manageable and most importantly, it makes the risk/reward of casting a higher level spell worth it since the spell will do more damage -- More damage than a vanilla spell costing the same. You can still focus on cost reduction, but now it's going to be much harder because it's a temporary buff in the form of potions and not gear that can be enchanted and worn 100% of the time like in the vanilla game. This is how the mod authors try and keep magic from becoming overpowered, or unbalanced because if players can cast high level spells with increased magnitude for nothing, then that IS overpowered and something no players want, regardless of where you may side in the whole magic debate :)

[Shadeybladey]

 

I see a lot of new mage players select Magicka on level up early on, thinking it's the most important thing for a mage. Its not; take more health than magicka early on.

 

Hmm. I'm not so sure about that. I make a set of rules for my characters, based on Daggerfall and Morrowind classes and AD&D principles. So for a Mage I would increase M, H and S in an 8:2:0 ratio, Warriors in a 0:5:5, Paladins and Rangers in a 2:4:4, Thieves 0:3:6 (more carry weight and Stamina for Sneak Power Attacks), Bards and Nightblades in a 3:3:3 ratio etc. I think my Druid was in a 5:4:2 ratio and skills and perks were planned out from the start.

 

It IS true that you could play a Mage by just increasing Health and waiting until your Alchemy and Enchanting was Mega-Uber and making items that reduce casting cost of your main schools to zero, but that is not really role-playing the class idea to my mind.

 

And recreating Daggerfalll/Morrowind and AD&D classes is like a side-hobby to my Skyrim experience.

 

~.~

[Shadeybladey]

 

 

Do these mods that increase spell Magnitude and Duration also abolish magicka cost reduction? Or do they increase magicka cost with Mag and Dur so that Perks etc reduce it to something more manageable without it dwindling to no cost at all?

 

~.~

 

What these mods usually do is swap the cost reduction you get from vanilla gear and perks to potions you buy/mix/find and take the increased magnitude from vanilla potions and put them onto gear and into the skill tree perks. It's a basic 1:1 switch, more or less. True, the mod author has a lot of say on what he thinks (or doesn't think) is balanced, but the ones I use try and keep as close to vanilla values as possible because they DON'T want Mages / Magic to become overpowered as a result.

 

Actually, I had a look at those mods. The first looks a bit over-powered from the screen shots (don't need elemental resistance as well as increased damage from the elemental perks), but Simple Magic Rebalance by Gruftlord looks like a really interesting way of modding the magick system. Gear for Magnitude/Duration, Potions for reduced Magicka cost.

 

I might try it with one of my future characters. I just started a Dunmer Nightblade and, unfortunately, Simple magic Rebalance will interfere with my own Alchemy mod at the moment (unreleased). I might have to make a patch! :D

 

The only magick mods I use atm add new spells, like Transmute Iron to Silver, Transmute Silver to Gold, Multi-Magelight, Conjuration Madness (for the Druid) and a few Druid spells of my own. I also used to use one that allowed multiple Elemental Rune spells.

 

 

Cheers!

 

~.~