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Most irritating plothole in dawnguard?

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#21
AegisRunestone

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You implied that statement when you said: "The point is Vampires have been attacking Towns all over Skyrim, killing people, you join the Dawnguard to fight back and kill them, kill Vampires...Vampires are not known for anything but malicious and violent activity against the citizens of Tamirel, so why would you suddenly stop short at wiping another Vampire out?"

 

Wait, so Serana was supposed to massacre the Dragonborn when he/she first meets her? Sounds like from your logic; yes, she was supposed to.

 

But she didn't. That's why the Dragonborn doesn't kill her on sight.

 

Also, IIRC, the Dragonborn doesn't realize she's a vampire until he/she's talked to her for a bit. If Serana were the vicious, destructive vampire that she was supposed to be, she wouldn't have been talking to the Dragonborn. Instead, he/she would have just been another meal. But again, she doesn't, I believe that's why the Dragonborn spares her.


Edited by AegisRunestone, 27 December 2013 - 02:43 AM.


#22
TheVampireDante

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Why wouldn't you attack Serana on sight?

 

1. Other Vampires are searching for something - turns out it's her - that makes her important - you'd want to know why.

 

2. As soon as you see her you notice something she has - An Elderscroll - so you'd want to know how and why she has it.

 

3. As AegisRunestone says - you don't know she's a Vampire until you talk to her (at least the character doesn't).

 

As for "walking her home" instead of killing/leaving her - well, in doing so (and making it out alive), you now know the exact location of the Vampire stronghold, and also have a rough idea how many Vampires there are (at a minimum). That, I would think is pretty valuable information. You also learn that Harkon is more interested in the scroll than his own daughter - so there's information in that alone showing that there is something much bigger occupying Harkon's mind.

 

Charging in hacking and slashing doesn't always get the best results. Think about what would have happened is you had somehow forced Serana back to Fort Dawnguard in the first place.

 

You have a run down fort - Isran, Durok Celann and the farm boy. Maybe one other recruit I can't recall if anyone else had signed up at that point. Now, you take her there and Isran either manages to get her to talk or kills her. If she talks, the only thing she'll know about is where her home was - nothing about who or what is there - remember she doesn't even know who might be there when you first go to Castle Volkihar (Harkon or Valerica), nevermind what sort of entourage they might have.

 

If he kills her - right, one dead Vampire, and an Elderscroll they have no idea what to do with. A scroll that Harkon's looking for. Knowing the way rumours travel in Skyrim - it wouldn't be long before Harkon learns of the discovery of the scroll, and the potential death of his daughter. He's going to want that scroll and would likely assault the fort as soon as possible in order to claim it - no time for the Dawnguard to build up forces or learn of the attack. It'd be a slaughter, an outright one if Harkon goes himself and uses his Vampire Lord form as well as bring everyone with him (his court members, the hounds, maybe some other lower level vampires).

 

Especially since Isran at the start is too stubborn to admit he needs serious help with the effort, so at the most he'd have a few extra - untrained - footsoldiers at his disposal as well as Durok and Celann. A few crossbows and Isran's little lightshow spell aren't going to help if 10+ fairly powerful Vampires suddenly come kicking the door down and letting their pets out to play.

 

So instead, you take her home, learn the odds and where everyone stands a little better and give Isran enough information to start realizing that he needs proper backup on this matter - enter the search for a more experienced team and also building up the rookies and equipment. Harkon in that time carries on as was and makes no real efforts to do anything other than sending out a few scouting parties to see what is going on, and grabbing a Moth Priest to read the one scroll he has. Which doesn't help him, as I doubt he'd ever figure out how to obtain the one Valerica has (as I doubt Serana would offer any information to him - considering she didn't think of her Mother hiding in the Castle either) or where to start looking for the third one - seriously, all that time and not once did he think to get someone asking at the college of Winterhold about Elderscrolls?

 

At least he wouldn't think of this for a long time, if at all - which would give the Dawnguard plenty of time to build up and plan their attack with the proper forces, equipment and strategy.

 

Better than running in blind and ending up on evening menu.



#23
KanesGhost

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You implied that statement when you said: "The point is Vampires have been attacking Towns all over Skyrim, killing people, you join the Dawnguard to fight back and kill them, kill Vampires...Vampires are not known for anything but malicious and violent activity against the citizens of Tamirel, so why would you suddenly stop short at wiping another Vampire out?"

 

Wait, so Serana was supposed to massacre the Dragonborn when he/she first meets her? Sounds like from your logic; yes, she was supposed to.

 

But she didn't. That's why the Dragonborn doesn't kill her on sight.

 

Also, IIRC, the Dragonborn doesn't realize she's a vampire until he/she's talked to her for a bit. If Serana were the vicious, destructive vampire that she was supposed to be, she wouldn't have been talking to the Dragonborn. Instead, he/she would have just been another meal. But again, she doesn't, I believe that's why the Dragonborn spares her.

It was not my intention to 'imply' such behavior, much apologies if I gave you that impression....Maliciousness and violent does not equate 'rabid or crazed' behavior, Vampires though dead retain the ability to think and construct plans.

 

There is also RP to be taken into account, or in this case RP skewed and I still can't work my story around why my Dragonborn does not kill her where she stands...then walks her HOME!.... :blink: ....(though I do take her back to the Dawnguard Fort first, getting direct orders from Isran to take her home, rather than just her say so, it's a small compensation for RP destruction). I note your RP involves your Dragonborn not recognizing her for what she is, my RP differs, I would expect a Werewolf (my Dragonborn) to be keenly aware, to be able to smell a Vampire, no matter how inane that Vamp may first appear...and then so thus in my RP he does know exactly what she is and he joined the Dawnguard precisely for the reason "Killing Vampires, where do I sign up?"...that's why his there....At least let him kill her after the whole Vamp affair is over, but unfortunately she remains essential.



#24
KanesGhost

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Why wouldn't you attack Serana on sight?

 

1. Other Vampires are searching for something - turns out it's her - that makes her important - you'd want to know why.

 

2. As soon as you see her you notice something she has - An Elderscroll - so you'd want to know how and why she has it.

 

3. As AegisRunestone says - you don't know she's a Vampire until you talk to her (at least the character doesn't).

 

As for "walking her home" instead of killing/leaving her - well, in doing so (and making it out alive), you now know the exact location of the Vampire stronghold, and also have a rough idea how many Vampires there are (at a minimum). That, I would think is pretty valuable information. You also learn that Harkon is more interested in the scroll than his own daughter - so there's information in that alone showing that there is something much bigger occupying Harkon's mind.

 

Charging in hacking and slashing doesn't always get the best results. Think about what would have happened is you had somehow forced Serana back to Fort Dawnguard in the first place.

 

You have a run down fort - Isran, Durok Celann and the farm boy. Maybe one other recruit I can't recall if anyone else had signed up at that point. Now, you take her there and Isran either manages to get her to talk or kills her. If she talks, the only thing she'll know about is where her home was - nothing about who or what is there - remember she doesn't even know who might be there when you first go to Castle Volkihar (Harkon or Valerica), nevermind what sort of entourage they might have.

 

If he kills her - right, one dead Vampire, and an Elderscroll they have no idea what to do with. A scroll that Harkon's looking for. Knowing the way rumours travel in Skyrim - it wouldn't be long before Harkon learns of the discovery of the scroll, and the potential death of his daughter. He's going to want that scroll and would likely assault the fort as soon as possible in order to claim it - no time for the Dawnguard to build up forces or learn of the attack. It'd be a slaughter, an outright one if Harkon goes himself and uses his Vampire Lord form as well as bring everyone with him (his court members, the hounds, maybe some other lower level vampires).

 

Especially since Isran at the start is too stubborn to admit he needs serious help with the effort, so at the most he'd have a few extra - untrained - footsoldiers at his disposal as well as Durok and Celann. A few crossbows and Isran's little lightshow spell aren't going to help if 10+ fairly powerful Vampires suddenly come kicking the door down and letting their pets out to play.

 

So instead, you take her home, learn the odds and where everyone stands a little better and give Isran enough information to start realizing that he needs proper backup on this matter - enter the search for a more experienced team and also building up the rookies and equipment. Harkon in that time carries on as was and makes no real efforts to do anything other than sending out a few scouting parties to see what is going on, and grabbing a Moth Priest to read the one scroll he has. Which doesn't help him, as I doubt he'd ever figure out how to obtain the one Valerica has (as I doubt Serana would offer any information to him - considering she didn't think of her Mother hiding in the Castle either) or where to start looking for the third one - seriously, all that time and not once did he think to get someone asking at the college of Winterhold about Elderscrolls?

 

At least he wouldn't think of this for a long time, if at all - which would give the Dawnguard plenty of time to build up and plan their attack with the proper forces, equipment and strategy.

 

Better than running in blind and ending up on evening menu.

1. That depends entirely upon the character you are RP'ing...their perspective.

2. Luckily for me I hadn't gotten that far into the MQ for my character to know what an Elder Scroll is (recognize one on sight)...and I continue to play as such, never completing that far into the MQ to know what it is she carries.

3. That once again depends on your RP, whether you recognize her for what she is or not.

 

When you walk her home, at that point she has given you almost zero information, telling you she doesn't trust you enough to say much more...you have absolutely no idea of what your going to find or what your in for when you walk this Stranger and Vampire home who chooses to withhold information from you, but asks you for an enormous about of trust in return...it makes very little sense and makes for a very naive and trusting Dragonborn....based on what?

 

As for what would happen if you were able to take her straight back to Dawnguard itself and forcefully withhold her there, your character know's none of that (your hypothesis on what would occur, you are most likely right)...doesn't know about Harkon or his entourage, so would be unaware of what it could lead to...unless of course they can get Serana to spill some beans...aka, either Torture or a little trust actually having to go both ways.



#25
sralkyrv

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I think that bringing Serana back to the castle was important for the end of the quest, she needed to find out that her father became insane which makes her desicion towards the end of the quest to help killing him more acceptable.

I agree with the "pro Serana's" that killing her is not an valuable option, look at the bigger picture, :laugh: there is more than just slaying/murdering people/vampires, especially some one like Serana.

Besides, Bethesda made that desicion for you, they made Serana different from all the other vampires (she is very much likeable too) so you didn't need to kill Serana on sight and after you killed Harkon, Serana is a powerfull follower so no reason to kill her at all.


Edited by sralkyrv, 27 December 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#26
AegisRunestone

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Exactly.

 

Also, before someone brings this up: Harkon doesn't kill you off the bat because you brought his pawn back to him. Bad guys love it when their tools are returned to them in order to continue their evil schemes. And they reward those who help them--usually. So, that's why--instead of killing you--when you refuse the gift, he banishes you.

 

I also agree with everything Vampire Dante said.

 

The only thing that annoyed me, since I was playing an archer character at the time, was how much you had to do to get Auriel's Bow. Yes, it's a POWERFUL artifact, but... I felt like the quest to get it was too long. XD Maybe I was just too greedy. XD


Edited by AegisRunestone, 27 December 2013 - 03:50 PM.


#27
Fistandilius

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If I went through some complicated puzzle to release someone that was apparently asleep in a tomb in the middle of a mountain and claimed she'd been asleep for centuries, I think I'd be slightly curious and my first impulse would be more  like, "What the hell?" than, "KILL!!"   But that's just me.

 

I can't believe you guys are complaining about those issues.

 

How about the fact that I put 1000 hours into Skyrim and then Dawnguard comes along and suddenly there's massive landscape changes, a castle that shows up in the middle of nowhere, a crack in a mountain that leads to a castle that everyone just knows has been abandoned there for centuries even though you apparently couldn't get to it before now....

 

I mean come on Bethesda.   Not to mention 2 seconds after I loaded the DLC a guard walked up to me and said, "join the dawnguard".


Edited by Fistandilius, 27 December 2013 - 06:25 PM.


#28
ilikecheese1337

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Even the most dyed-in-the-wool, rabid, vampire-hating crusader isn't likely to attack a vampire who wakes up, falls over and then introduces herself politely, weapons sheathed. It's a ridiculous complaint that one can't choose to just murder her on the spot simply for being a Vampire Lord, much like complaining that one can't play a serial killer and chop up the Greybeards. Vampire hunter ideology is mostly accurate because only the seriously twisted contract vampirism, allow it to progress and then go out into the world (the unfortunates who can't cure themselves early apparently shut themselves away), and Daedra worshippers devout enough to become vampires aren't often exactly altruistic. Serana is a very rare/unique case of someone pressured into vampirism.

 

If it really bothers you to walk her home, imagine that she uses subtle Illusion magic on you.



#29
KanesGhost

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I am thinking looking at the replies the debate here really boils down to the point of those who like Serana and those who don't...People who like Serana finding reason to do her bidding, people who are not fans of her's finding reason not to do so...I see logic in most of the reasons bought forward on both sides of the fence, barring those that foresee what our Dovahkin's don't know, can't logic what our Dovahkin's don't know as yet.

 

I would have liked it if she MUST live for the purpose of Story Telling to have two real choices in how to deal with her...those who like to favor RP acceptance of Serana and her condition and do as the story stands...choose to trust her, choose to return her home, choose to befriend her, etc...The alternate narrative to be much less trusting of Serana, taking her back to Dawnguard as a prisoner and holding her under questioning, Isran finally deciding that your Dovahkin is to return her to her home...much more like a recon mission....Option for pure mission focus dialog, not just the many way's to buddy, buddy with her and an allowance to distrust. Same story, just one change at the start and an extra line of added dialog options...Oh, and remove her essential tag once Harkon is dead....Reason I suggest removal of the 'essential tag' if she chooses to remain a Vampire, why does your Vamp Hunter let her live? As in essence she remains a threat so long as her special 'Child of ColdHarbor' blood and Auriels Bow continue to exist.



#30
YX33A

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Keep in mind that a "Daugter of Coldharbor" is just a pure-blooded vampire(IE one who was made directly from the Lord of Rape), obviously a woman in this case.

 

Ever notice that Molag Bal isn't around to kill?  Or that you plain old can't kill him?  So long as Molag Bal exists, the ritual she went through could be done by anyone, anywhere.  And Auriels Bow is an Artefact, which like seemingly all Artefacts in the Grey Maybe, tend to vanish and show up elsewhere when they feel like it.  Doubly so if it's related to a God(such as the bow).  One can't break an artefact made by a god for good(well, not usually.  Going off of DnD Logic here, it is possible, they just are damn near impossible to break, usually requring a major quest line to remove from existence).

 

I'd say my only real "Plot Hole" is actually more of a gripe; I don't want to join the Dawnguard in my next playthrough, but I DO want to have crossbows.  ALL THE CROSSBOWS!  I thought I saw a mod that allowed Vampire Lords siding with Harkon to still do the Ancient Technology quests, but I'm having no luck finding it now.







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