Dumb Question: BaseID's and Load Order

[x0pht]

This question might sound kinda dumb, but i've always been wondering how come a stored item from a mod is never lost when the load order of the mod is changed.

 

For example, an item with a baseID of, let's say, 1A012345. Now I store this said item in a safe container, save and exit the game, and move the mod that contains the item to one slot below. So now the BaseID of this said item is 1B012345. I load the previous save, open that container, and the item is still there.

 

How is the reference to the items from plugins stored in the savegames? What if there's another item from a different mod but having a same BaseID, then I switch these two mods? Will the fact that their BaseID's are completely and silently switched somehow "confuse" the savegame or the game engine?

 

 

 

[Shadeybladey]

I think no one knows what the structure of a saved game is. Otherwise, we'd have save editors like for older games like Baldur's Gate.

I am not sure if you mean Form ID or Base ID. In the CK, the number of the Form is Form ID. I do not know how this relates to Base ID and Ref ID in-game when you use the console, but let's assume Form ID = Base ID.

I assume that the game stores the Form ID of any item as xx012345 in the same way it does for the DLC:

Skyrim.esm will be 00012345
Update.esm will be 01012345 (although things in Update would usually override those in Skyrm, so I might have it wrong here)
Dawnguard.esm will be 02012345
Hearthfires will be 03012345
Dragonborn will be 04012345

Of course, if you do not have Dawnguard and Hearthfires, then the Dragonborn form will be 02012345 as "02" is it's load order.


So, although in the CK any new form in a mod will start with 03 if you have Skyrim, Update and Dawnguard as required Masters, in-game the first two digits are determined by the load order in Plugins.txt.

EG, my Silver and Mithril weapons - any new recipes for making new weapons will start with 03 in the CK as that mod requires Skyrim, Update and Dawnguard as Masters. But in-game, they start with 9C as that is the load order in my game as that is how many mods I have above it. For someone else, the first two digits might be 34 if they have fewer mods, or 9D if they have more mods.

If anything in a mod overrides and replaces something in Vanilla, EG changes an existing item or recipes, then you do not make a duplicate with a new number and then change it to make a new form - you change the existing form and save it with the original number.

Without the mod, you have the original number; with the mod you still have the original number, but the attributes of the item will be changed.

EG, If I wanted to change the armour rating and weight of, say, a Daedric Helmet, I would have my mod active, and then change the armour rating and weight of the

ArmorDaedricHelmet 0001396D ARMO form and save it. My mod will now override Vanilla.


If I wanted to change the recipe for making a Daedric Helmet, I would edit the

RecipeArmorDaedricHelmet 000DD995 COBJ form and save it and so override Vanilla.

But both of these would be saved with the original Form ID number as they are meant to override Vanilla.


If I wanted to make a new type of Daedric Helmet, say, Masque of Molag Baal, I would make a duplicate of 0001396D, add special effects, change the Editor ID and displayed name and save it as a new form. The new form will start as 03 in the CK, as that is the order of my mod in the CK. In-game, it will start with whatever the load order of the mod is.

If you change the load order of a mod, any items from that mod will still be there, as the first two digits are assigned dynamically when you start up the game and load the save.

If you load a game without the mod active, the item will be gone.


I'm sure some members with advanced programming knowledge could confirm or correct any of this and give fine details, but that is my understanding of it.

What I do not understand, is how the final six digits for custom items always seem to be unique.



Cheers!

~.~

[jet4571]

Because the save remembers what esp and esm the items are from. It is the load order that is saved elsewhere that does the first 2 numbers that is assigned when the game plays.

[x0pht]

Thank you both for the answers. :smile:

 

I am not sure if you mean Form ID or Base ID. In the CK, the number of the Form is Form ID. I do not know how this relates to Base ID and Ref ID in-game when you use the console, but let's assume Form ID = Base ID.


What I do not understand, is how the final six digits for custom items always seem to be unique.

 

That's what I thought. Form ID = Plugin Identifier (first two digits) + Base ID. (though i just did a bit of search again, and it seems that FormID may refer to either BaseID or Ref ID depending on which "window" we look at, it's for Fallout GECK, but I assume CK shares certain similarity -> http://geck.bethsoft.com/index.php?title=Glossary#Base_ID )

 

As for the six digit BaseID's, as far as I understand, they could be duplicate as long as they are not in the same mod. That's also why I'm puzzled as to how savegames tell which item is which, since the first two digits are dynamically assinged based on the load orders.

 

Because the save remembers what esp and esm the items are from. It is the load order that is saved elsewhere that does the first 2 numbers that is assigned when the game plays.

 

yeah I know, the first two digits are dynamic. i suppose that's the only explanation. but how are the plugins referred in the saves. Is there any unique ID in the esp or esm? It cant be simply the file name, can it? What if the ESP file is renamed, will it still work?

 

 

EDIT: OR... perhaps duplicate BaseID's from different mods WILL actually cause issues? e.g. overrides each other, as shadeybladey said you use the same FormID in CK if you wanna replace the vanilla items?

Edited January 20, 2014 by x0pht

[meh321]

I think it's file name. If you rename the esp file and it breaks then it's your own fault :P

[x0pht]

I think it's file name. If you rename the esp file and it breaks then it's your own fault :tongue:

 

lol yeah but I'll probably give it a try anyway when i'm home tonight. but i remember i used a merged esp before, and I still had all the items after I switched. At least half of the items used to belong to an esp with a different filename.

[jet4571]

Duplicate ID's dont matter if the ID's are in mods that are not dependant on each other. Take a weapon mod that you can craft weapons for example. Copy and paste the esp in the data folder so you have the original and another that has copy in the name. have both load and go to a crafting station and there will be two of the weapons identical to each other available to craft. You can craft them both and you will have two of them in inventory. They dont stack so they will be seperate, if you get the ID numbers they will be the same except the load order numbers. ID numbers cannot overwrite from one mod to another unless one is a master because modding would be near impossible when you can have hundreds of mods that use the same exact ID numbers.

 

In the save it would have the esp or esm name connected to the item along with its ID numbers, Wrye Bash shows that it contains both the name and load order. So changing the load order it will still know the mod it is from and not get confused. Take the two weapons you made in the example above and give them to two seperate followers knowing what one goes with what mod then remove the copy from the load order and the copies weapon is removed from the NPC and the original is still in the correct NPC's inventory.

 

When you rename an esp or esm and load it into the game, the game sees it as a new mod. Take a house mod for example. if you publish it and have a few hundred people using it, then do an update but rename it everyone thats using it will need to delete the old version and remove everything from containers before the switch. Everything from the original named home will become unavailable even if the home looks exactly the same. When the warning comes up stating there is a missing plugin it is telling you everything in that plugin will not be loaded, that includes renaming a mod even if it is in the same spot in the load order.

[x0pht]

Duplicate ID's dont matter if the ID's are in mods that are not dependant on each other. Take a weapon mod that you can craft weapons for example. Copy and paste the esp in the data folder so you have the original and another that has copy in the name. have both load and go to a crafting station and there will be two of the weapons identical to each other available to craft. You can craft them both and you will have two of them in inventory. They dont stack so they will be seperate, if you get the ID numbers they will be the same except the load order numbers. ID numbers cannot overwrite from one mod to another unless one is a master because modding would be near impossible when you can have hundreds of mods that use the same exact ID numbers.

 

In the save it would have the esp or esm name connected to the item along with its ID numbers, Wrye Bash shows that it contains both the name and load order. So changing the load order it will still know the mod it is from and not get confused. Take the two weapons you made in the example above and give them to two seperate followers knowing what one goes with what mod then remove the copy from the load order and the copies weapon is removed from the NPC and the original is still in the correct NPC's inventory.

 

When you rename an esp or esm and load it into the game, the game sees it as a new mod. Take a house mod for example. if you publish it and have a few hundred people using it, then do an update but rename it everyone thats using it will need to delete the old version and remove everything from containers before the switch. Everything from the original named home will become unavailable even if the home looks exactly the same. When the warning comes up stating there is a missing plugin it is telling you everything in that plugin will not be loaded, that includes renaming a mod even if it is in the same spot in the load order.

 

Thank you so much jet4571. that explains everything, and it all makes sense then.

 

I guess I missed something when I thought I still had everything that were stored after I switched two seperate ESP's to a merged one. Cuz the items from at least one of the ESP's shouldn't show up, as that ESP file no longer existed. I'll dig up that mod and its merged version tonight, and try them again.