spoiler Which king is better for orzammar.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

My first character, being a Dalish elf who had no prior experience with any outside society, chose Harrowmont because he came across as a warmer, more benevolent leader.

 

Every other character since has gone with Bhelen. The thing about Harrowmont is that he doesn't give half a damn about anyone beneath the nobility- even though he is a kinder man, he is rigidly adherent to the dwarven caste system. My human mage looked at the situation and concluded that tradition had thus far done the dwarves no favors (after all, look at how much territory they've lost to the Darkspawn... and as Awakening reveals, at least some of their losses were the result of higher dwarves refusing to arm and train inferior castes). My city elf put an ear to the streets, quickly drew a connection between the casteless and her own people, and backed Bhelen to the hilt because traditionalists like Harrowmont reminded her too much of the human nobility back home.

 

My dwarven noble just shook her head, said "well played, brother," and handed Bhelen the crown because if he could put one over on her then he was more than worthy as a king... and she was only too happy to use his deviousness and ambition for her own purposes, since by the time she went back to Orzammar she had bigger fish to fry. Harrowmont would have been useless to her by then; he was a great advisor but she needed a King with a capital K, a mover and a shaker instead of a spineless law-and-order-and-tradition type. Bhelen got to be King, but sister still got all the glory in the end. ;)

 

All just roleplay excuses, but when you get right down to it the only characters who I could see rationalizing a choice for Harrowmont are either ignorant of dwarven society or arrogant nobles who care nothing for the commoners or the larger picture. Bhelen just makes a better king.

[Thandal]

All just roleplay excuses, but when you get right down to it the only characters who I could see rationalizing a choice for Harrowmont are either ignorant of dwarven society or arrogant nobles who care nothing for the commoners or the larger picture. Bhelen just makes a better king.

Except for the part about betraying and murdering anyone he perceives as being in his way or as a possible threat "someday..." Except for for lacking any sense of morality or purpose beyond those of greed and power. Except for that, he's a "better" King.

 

Oh, and those who are most "familiar with Dwarven Society", (i.e. its members) are exactly the Harrowmont supporters because he upholds that society, as broken and dying as outsiders might consider it. So I think it's mostly those those who are ignorant of it who would champion Bhelen.

 

(Ok, and my DNF Warden is STILL pissed she can't be the Ruling Queen, as Branka hints might be possible! :laugh: )

[RustyBlade]

Hmmm... So we can side with a guy who murders a few failed power grabbers to further his own ends and those of Orzammar or we can side with a man who wishes to perpetuate the bigoted persecution of an entire segment of the Dwarven population. Or to paraphrase: Behlen - Kicking tail and taking names to make things better for himself and the Dwarves; Harrowmont - maintaining the status quo long after the quo has lost its status.

[Thandal]

Hmmm... So we can side with a guy who murders a few failed power grabbers to further his own ends and those of Orzammar or we can side with a man who wishes to perpetuate the bigoted persecution of an entire segment of the Dwarven population. Or to paraphrase: Behlen - Kicking tail and taking names to make things better for himself and the Dwarves; Harrowmont - maintaining the status quo long after the quo has lost its status.

It's not that he murdered "a few failed power grabbers", not to mention his brother, and tried to accomplish the same thing through others regarding his other sibling, me! It's that he'd murder anyone at all and feel justified because, "they opposed me", or "they were a threat", or "to teach a lesson", or... or... or...

 

Stalin said the same.

 

Harrowmont might eventually have seen things differently because he really did want "what's best for Orzammar". (He doesn't "see the light", of course. Epilogue makes that claer. But he might have.)

 

Bhelen only wants what's best for Bhelen. He'll never "Do what's best for Orzamamr" if it costs him a thing.

 

Can't get behind a ruler like that, or the attitude that supports that approach. As Sten says, "There are more important thinks than living." Orzammar may be doomed, but what it would become under Bhelen isn't necessarily any better. (Is Russia under the Soviets, and now the Kleptarchs, better or worse than under the Czars?)

[RustyBlade]

I see him more of a Nixon or a Johnson than a Stalin :laugh:

[LobselVith66]

Bhelen is ambitious, but he's also willing to give the casteless more rights, which will never happen under Harrowmont. Bhelen regains many of the lost thaigs, he improves the relations and trade with the surface world, and many view him as a reformer. Given that Harrowmont has no issue with the treatment of the casteless and is unable to do anything but isolate Orzammar further from the surface world, it's clear that Bhelen brings the most prosperity to the dwarven people.

[Thandal]

As Sten might say: "Without honor, what is the point?"

 

That Bhelen is willing to make some changes in the way Dwarven (at least Orzammarian) society operates is true. That he is willing to do so only if, and only as long as, it profits him personally, is also true.

 

So our choice seems to be, "Misguided, but honorable King", or "Corrupt, self-serving King". At least with the former there's a chance they'll change for the better. Not really any hope for improvement with the latter.

 

(At the time we have to make the choice, we haven't read the Epilogue slides and learned "how it all turned out". :laugh: )

[RustyBlade]

Does a non noble dwarf have any real proof of Behlen's treachery? Just hearsay IMO.

[XTR3M368]

I used to always go Harrowmont, but tried Bhelen for variance one time. They both have their criers lie their butts off and try and kill you if you don't support them. We only have Harrowmont's word that the king didn't want his son to take his place while Bhelen IS the heir to the throne. I won't be going Harrowmont anymore as it weakens Orzammar. Political Idealism is fine on the surface but the Grey Wardens do what is necessary to defeat the blight. Bhelen is the better choice for strength and future dwarven relations. Harrowmont is no different from Bhelen in making you run all over to take care of things and both of their senses of "honor" are warped IMO (or lack of honor as the case may be)....might as well go for the one that will make them the stronger ally. I am apathetic about dwarves to begin with so "ends justify the means" with me in that mission.

[LobselVith66]

As Sten might say: "Without honor, what is the point?"

 

That Bhelen is willing to make some changes in the way Dwarven (at least Orzammarian) society operates is true. That he is willing to do so only if, and only as long as, it profits him personally, is also true.

 

So our choice seems to be, "Misguided, but honorable King", or "Corrupt, self-serving King". At least with the former there's a chance they'll change for the better. Not really any hope for improvement with the latter.

 

How does treating the casteless as though they were sub-human honorable?

 

 

(At the time we have to make the choice, we haven't read the Epilogue slides and learned "how it all turned out". :laugh: )

 

I think that was intentional. Unless you play as a dwarf, you never really get a real understanding of Orzammar; as an outsider, you have to make educated guesses based on limited information. On the surface, Harrowmont seems like the moral choice, but it's only if you completed the game or heard the criers that you learn that Harrowmont has no issue with the casteless being stepped on. Harrowmont becomes a poor King and does nothing to change things, while Bhelen is directly responsible for the casteless getting more rights.