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#11
ArtMurder

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I assure you, requiem and skyre do not work together. I put about about three months into trying to combine the two, and eventually gave up. There is probably about ten thousand conflicts. Sorry to say, anyone who says they've done it, or even attempted it without failing horribly, is either mistaken, lying, or me, and I never even got them to work together, even after about 3 months of trying. In fact, I have probably come closer to combining them then anyone else. Googling "combining requiem and skyrim redone" only returns one promising search result... my thread. The only other results are a reddit page where someone gets laughed at for even suggesting it, and one of my videos about the project. You can also search "requiem redone" which was the official name of the project, and turn up the main project page, and videos I uploaded myself detailing how close I came to getting the two to work together before TES5Edit exploded all over the entire project.

 

That is if you actually want the main content from skyre of coarse, which is the perks, requiem relies so heavily on it's perks to rebalance itself, that you have to manually, edit, remove or combined, every single perk in the game. There is simply no simple way to install the two together. Requiem already does pretty much everything else skyre does outside of the perks, and every other aspect of skyre would just serve to unbalance the heck out requiem, so why anyone would want to install any part of skyre EXCEPT the perks with requiem, I don't know... Sure you could install the standing stones or race modules without to much difficulty, but why would you want to? Adding in a small part of SkyRe's content into requiem would just make that content so obnoxiously over powered it would break the game, then what's the point of even having requiem installed in the first place?

 

Sorry, but combining requiem and skyrim redone is a project close to my heart.

 

Also, I can do everything you just listed, without using MO. I installed it once, and still to this day I get this "error game not found" error I have to exit out every single time I play skyrim. The game launches normally right afterwards, but it's still annoying. It just felt like a sub-par alternative to Wrye Bash to me. I have another program which can swap entire game profiles better then it can, which is the only thing it does that makes it stand out from the crowd of mod manager programs. XD I also dislike "forced hand holding" programs all around, just not for me. It's at least a LOT better then NMM, last time I tried to use it, it would just randomly stop working for days at a time, shuffle all my mods for no reason, and other various infuriating things. D=



#12
Zjosh86

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I assure you, requiem and skyre do not work together. I put about about three months into trying to combine the two, and eventually gave up. There is probably about ten thousand conflicts. Sorry to say, anyone who says they've done it, or even attempted it without failing horribly, is either mistaken, lying, or me, and I never even got them to work together, even after about 3 months of trying. In fact, I have probably come closer to combining them then anyone else. Googling "combining requiem and skyrim redone" only returns one promising search result... my thread. The only other results are a reddit page where someone gets laughed at for even suggesting it, and one of my videos about the project. You can also search "requiem redone" which was the official name of the project, and turn up the main project page, and videos I uploaded myself detailing how close I came to getting the two to work together before TES5Edit exploded all over the entire project.

 

That is if you actually want the main content from skyre of coarse, which is the perks, requiem relies so heavily on it's perks to rebalance itself, that you have to manually, edit, remove or combined, every single perk in the game. There is simply no simple way to install the two together. Requiem already does pretty much everything else skyre does outside of the perks, and every other aspect of skyre would just serve to unbalance the heck out requiem, so why anyone would want to install any part of skyre EXCEPT the perks with requiem, I don't know... Sure you could install the standing stones or race modules without to much difficulty, but why would you want to? Adding in a small part of SkyRe's content into requiem would just make that content so obnoxiously over powered it would break the game, then what's the point of even having requiem installed in the first place?

 

Sorry, but combining requiem and skyrim redone is a project close to my heart.

 

Also, I can do everything you just listed, without using MO. I installed it once, and still to this day I get this "error game not found" error I have to exit out every single time I play skyrim. The game launches normally right afterwards, but it's still annoying. It just felt like a sub-par alternative to Wrye Bash to me. I have another program which can swap entire game profiles better then it can, which is the only thing it does that makes it stand out from the crowd of mod manager programs. XD I also dislike "forced hand holding" programs all around, just not for me. It's at least a LOT better then NMM, last time I tried to use it, it would just randomly stop working for days at a time, shuffle all my mods for no reason, and other various infuriating things. D=

 

 

I'm not worried about the combat mod thing too much now. I'll be content with my current combination.

 

As for MO. It is a lot more than that. It creates an emulated data folder for Skyrim all mods are stored and run through it instead of default skyrim folder.  All you have to do is take the time to really learn how to use MO.

 

Here is a guide to what helped me get started.

http://wiki.step-pro...er_.28Part_2.29

 

That guide was a HUGE help. I assure you man. MO is definitely an amazing piece. You can have unlimited number of differently modded "skyrim" basically without having to have several different folders of skyrim. I love it mostly for saving space and time on my SSD. Also, if you need help I've come across and solved every error so far. It is a lot easier once you understand how MO itself works. I cannot recommend it enough. 

 

Never having to worry about cleaning up Skyrim. Everything is emulated by MO. Nothing touches your skyrim folder other than SKSE and mods from workshop.

 

But, now for my current issue is animation mods from an external site. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post them as they are adult content, lol.


Edited by Zjosh86, 11 June 2014 - 03:48 AM.


#13
ArtMurder

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I assure you, requiem and skyre do not work together. I put about about three months into trying to combine the two, and eventually gave up. There is probably about ten thousand conflicts. Sorry to say, anyone who says they've done it, or even attempted it without failing horribly, is either mistaken, lying, or me, and I never even got them to work together, even after about 3 months of trying. In fact, I have probably come closer to combining them then anyone else. Googling "combining requiem and skyrim redone" only returns one promising search result... my thread. The only other results are a reddit page where someone gets laughed at for even suggesting it, and one of my videos about the project. You can also search "requiem redone" which was the official name of the project, and turn up the main project page, and videos I uploaded myself detailing how close I came to getting the two to work together before TES5Edit exploded all over the entire project.

 

That is if you actually want the main content from skyre of coarse, which is the perks, requiem relies so heavily on it's perks to rebalance itself, that you have to manually, edit, remove or combined, every single perk in the game. There is simply no simple way to install the two together. Requiem already does pretty much everything else skyre does outside of the perks, and every other aspect of skyre would just serve to unbalance the heck out requiem, so why anyone would want to install any part of skyre EXCEPT the perks with requiem, I don't know... Sure you could install the standing stones or race modules without to much difficulty, but why would you want to? Adding in a small part of SkyRe's content into requiem would just make that content so obnoxiously over powered it would break the game, then what's the point of even having requiem installed in the first place?

 

Sorry, but combining requiem and skyrim redone is a project close to my heart.

 

Also, I can do everything you just listed, without using MO. I installed it once, and still to this day I get this "error game not found" error I have to exit out every single time I play skyrim. The game launches normally right afterwards, but it's still annoying. It just felt like a sub-par alternative to Wrye Bash to me. I have another program which can swap entire game profiles better then it can, which is the only thing it does that makes it stand out from the crowd of mod manager programs. XD I also dislike "forced hand holding" programs all around, just not for me. It's at least a LOT better then NMM, last time I tried to use it, it would just randomly stop working for days at a time, shuffle all my mods for no reason, and other various infuriating things. D=

 

 

I'm not worried about the combat mod thing too much now. I'll be content with my current combination.

 

As for MO. It is a lot more than that. It creates an emulated data folder for Skyrim all mods are stored and run through it instead of default skyrim folder.  All you have to do is take the time to really learn how to use MO.

 

Here is a guide to what helped me get started.

http://wiki.step-pro...er_.28Part_2.29

 

That guide was a HUGE help. I assure you man. MO is definitely an amazing piece. You can have unlimited number of differently modded "skyrim" basically without having to have several different folders of skyrim. I love it mostly for saving space and time on my SSD. Also, if you need help I've come across and solved every error so far. It is a lot easier once you understand how MO itself works. I cannot recommend it enough. 

 

Never having to worry about cleaning up Skyrim. Everything is emulated by MO. Nothing touches your skyrim folder other than SKSE and mods from workshop.

 

But, now for my current issue is animation mods from an external site. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post them as they are adult content, lol.

 

I tried MO one time. Feel free to skip this entire paragraph wall of text if you don't want to hear an in depth reason why I decided it wasn't for me. Simply put, it tore apart my install folders, ruining multiple of my installs, and created permanent errors with skyrim itself I have still been unable to fix. I'm glad you like it, but as a more "hands on" style modder, who likes doing things myself, manually installing and keeping a close eye on every single file in my data folder, I find it to be an intensely annoying program, for about half the reasons you just listed off. I dislike it when I am not in direct control of my data folder, I dislike it when I can not count on files being set up exactly how I want them to be, and I really dislike it when a program picks and chooses which files to access separately and which ones to share because it "thinks" they are probably the same. I tried it once, and had to spend about 5 hours cleaning up the mess, and lost an entire install because of how it handles install swapping, and ALMOST lost my requiem based install which I've spent the better part of 8 MONTHS perfecting.  o_e As I said, I am glad you like it, but in my opinion, at least for what I want in load order control software, it is a terrible program. The program I use to swap installs(skyrim installation swapper) takes up more disc space storing files, and takes some time moving files in and out of my data folder manually, but it swaps installs with a single button press, and I know for a FACT it will move every single file in my data folder out and place them back EXACTLY how I had them. No worries. I will take that over convenience and speed any day. ^_^ I do have a powerful enough computer to run skyrim on ~60FPS with ultra settings, HD graphics mods, ENB, SweetFX, and dozens of script heavy mods without the need of super limited SDD storage space, so the 15 extra gigs on my utterly massive HDD is no big deal at all to me. I would like an SDD for my OS, but I've never felt the need for one for games, I already have smooth, flawless gameplay, it seems like a silly thing to invest money in to me, given the price of SDDs. Everyone is entitle to their own opinion, and in most cases people have legit reasons for having those opinions, and I just think that MO is not a great program, not because I didn't take time to learn how to use it, not because I tried it for 5 seconds and decided I hated it, not because I read a bad review on it and went all grumpy pants for no reason, not because I have some blind senseless hatred for it for any reason, and not because I'm an idiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about, but because I spent over 8 hours in total messing with the program, and simply decided it is very far from a program I would like in charge of my "skyrims" and their load orders. Wrye Bash is the one for me, cause it doesn't do anything unless I tell it to, and it doesn't try any weird "auto install" and "false data folder" crap other people seem to like that I find infuriating. I want my load order managers to do just that, help me in managing my load order. Wrye Bash lets me organize my mods in a nice, simple, convenient way, points out conflicts, and makes a nice convenient patch for everything, and doesn't do anything else I don't want it to do. Sometimes, simple is best. Which is odd, because Wrye Bash was originally infamous for being impossibly complicated when it first came out for oblivion. XD Anyways, I could ramble on about anything forever, cause I usually visit the nexus forums when I am half asleep, so I will stop myself there.

 

Also, eeeew, workshop mods. I just subscribe to them, copy the files over to a temp folder, zip them up for reuse, unsubscribe, and put the files back. e_e I am kind of OCD about my skyrim folder, in case you haven't been able to tell by this point, but the obnoxious complexity of some of my favorite mods has driven me to it XD you try installing requiem with 120 other mods, the last 60+ mods in my load order are all patches... e_e Requiem is like an addiction. "just how real can I get it?" It's a dangerous path to go down. Not unlike actually playing requiem! 8D

 

Also no, you can not link to outside sites on the nexus. Adult mods are fine, as long as they are on the nexus, and not post directly, uncensored in image form. 


Edited by ArtMurder, 11 June 2014 - 01:17 PM.


#14
Zjosh86

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SSD greatly improves responsiveness for skyrim modding. You would truly be amazed. I went from sometimes 8 minute load screens to not even a second. When I'm on my horse sprinting before it would lag horrible, does not at all anymore. Honestly right now you can buy a 250GB SSD for $140. The Samsung 840 evo has dropped considerably.

So, if you use many script or texture/mesh mods you definitely will gain from an SSD.

 

My next system will have 2 1TB SSD and a PCIE SSD for OS. No more worries about storage.

 

MO needs a fresh Skyrim install. You really cannot use it with an install that has mods. It has issues if you do.

The idea of control makes sense. I don't do manual lol. Gives me a headache. Plus, I'd forget over time what is what if I tried to handle manual install, lol.


Edited by Zjosh86, 11 June 2014 - 06:03 PM.


#15
ArtMurder

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at longest my load screens are like, 20 seconds, and at most I get maybe a 30% dip in frame rate for about a second and a half if I start sprinting on a horse at full speed, but it smooths out quickly and won't do it again. That difference is not worth the gross price of an SSD, I'll take 20 second load times over an expensive piece of equipment any day! When building my computer I focused more on value to performance ratio, rather then just performance. I use the best i5 the site I bought my parts from had to offer, because i5s are a better value then i7s even if they don't perform as well, I went with the GTX 660 because it is a powerhouse and performs as well as cards almost twice it's price, even if it's far from the best card around, and is crossfire compatible should I want to upgrade in the future, and top it off with 16 gigs of ram so I would have plenty of storage space. Far from an all out beast, it cans till run any game I throw at it on the highest graphics settings at 60FPS with less then 30 second load times, which is as impressive as I need it to be. ^_^ Also, that is a bit cheaper then when I bought parts for this computer, a 100GB SSD was about that price then. I intend on upgrading my computer to have a blueray drive and a second HD, I might try and get an SSD when I do as well, Skyrim and DayZ would likely be the only games I would put on it though.

 

and yeah, I've been installing mods for a looong time, I simply could not start over reinstalling them from scratch. Wrye Bash worked fine when I installed it after having load orders already set up. i tend to dive into thigns and learn how to use them as I am using them, which was a mistake for MO, it was not made very clear to me it goes bonkers if you try and use it with already active load orders. D= 

 

And it's the same with me and "auto installing" I do NOT trust technology to make decisions and maintain my stuff. XD I have a very good memory though, even if I stop for like, 2 months I can come back, scan through my load order and remember basically everything about the install =3



#16
Zjosh86

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This Reproccer software is a complete Fing joke. Literally since installed nothing but errors and issues left and right. I'm getting about done with that piece of garbage.

 

I get the feeling a big part for reason that SkyRE isn't ever balanced is armor mods and things of that nature. IT's clear to me just how bad reproccer is as software. I mean this thing bugs out on every other armor mod I have, let alone the other random issues that come up. That's the worst part. How random some of these bugs are. I'm about to switch to requiem just so I don't have to deal with this garbage.

 

Guess I should wait for the combat stuff. Looks like there's a few new ones coming.


Edited by Zjosh86, 12 June 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#17
Zjosh86

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Edit: spent only an hour fixing my current stuff to adjust into requiem. It works well. Still not sure how it'll work with the gear from the other mods below. IE the Lichking gear. I'd like to see that gear working effectively and be as powerful as it should.

I'm surprised I'm not running into more issues. I may sooner or later. Only fought a small group of things to see how it will play out.

What I'm most happy about is my "clean" papyrus logs!! Took a bit to get to. But, yay!

 

 

I'm putting together a Requiem load if you'd like to give advice.

 

 

Here is my LOOT load order. I'm curious what will come up incompatible? Excluding the obvious Asis, SkyRe, duel combat.

Let me know. My big thing for Skyrim is being able to utilize lots of armor mods. I don't know why. But, I love having the diversity of armors.

Also, I will start reading the documents tomorrow. But, to be sure with requiem can I edit armor/weapons to my taste? If I have an armor mod or something that has a quest line and is considered high tier armor. Requiem is said to edit it on it's own? Can I change values of these mods?

 

Ignore the errors, I'm in the middle of removing mods.

 

I noticed I have a lot of patches to get -_-.

 

Will I have to patch all armor/weapon mods? As I'm sure man don't have a patch available.

 

Summary
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<div>The LOOT Report requires Javascript to be enabled in order to function.</div>
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  • Jojjos Warglaives.esp
    CRC: F618E8B
  • Silverlight Armor.esp
    CRC: A5570759
  • Inconsequential NPCs.esp
    CRC: 8C5FA369
  • Cloaks.esp
    CRC: D8F94C02
    • Warning: Contains 2 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • 1nivWICCloaks.esp
    CRC: 6B6B803A
    Version: 2.3
    Add: Relev
  • SMIM-FarmhouseFlickeringFix.esp
    CRC: 92593BC1
  • 1nivWICSkyCloaksPatch.esp
    CRC: 3BA25C1C
    Version: 2.3
    Add: Delev, Relev
  • Populated Cities 2.esp
    CRC: 5FC72375
    • Warning: Contains 59 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • RRR_3DNPC-Patch.esp
    CRC: BDB38E3F
  • Adura_Skyrimmerchantmod.esp
    CRC: 66B591D0
  • PuppetMaster.esp
    CRC: B0ECF1C6
  • CerwidenCompanion.esp
    CRC: FEB5909
  • Devious Deviants.esp
    CRC: F0B3A3DF
  • DeadlyDragons.esp
    CRC: E8F826EA
    Add: Delev, Relev
  • ELFX - NoBreezehome.esp
    CRC: 32C287F7
  • SMIM-ShackRoofFixes.esp
    CRC: F782D8EA
  • HBetterBows.esp
    CRC: BBFFDB91
  • Chesko_Frostfall.esp
    CRC: EF4AE200
  • Armor of Justice.esp
    CRC: 3B9C55B7
  • Bandit Patrols.esp
    CRC: 24F8B6CA
    Add: Relev
  • SoS - The Wilds-PatchCoT.esp
    CRC: 809A34DA
    • Note: Use only one Sounds of Skyrim - The Wilds and CoT patch.
  • ClimatesOfTamriel-Sound.esp
    CRC: 75A1B6EA
    Version: 3.1
  • SoS - The Wilds-PatchCoTSounds.esp
    CRC: 53090D51
    • Note: Use only one Sounds of Skyrim - The Wilds and CoT patch.
  • SofiaFollower.esp
    CRC: 1AF25603
  • Immersive Battles.esp
    CRC: D97B5A37
  • XFLDialogue.esp
    CRC: 156E0D2A
  • Space Wiking's Dwemer Exoskeleton.esp
    CRC: 4D1F46FA
    • Warning: Contains 4 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • SBF All In One + DLC.esp
    CRC: 83724FAF
  • SOS - Shop.esp
    CRC: ADC9CED0
  • Immersive Travelers.esp
    CRC: 94800F07
  • DragonCombatOverhaulDragonborn.esp
    CRC: 143CDB7
  • Immersive Patrols.esp
    CRC: 25BDCE2D
  • The Dance of Death - Ultimate Edition.esp
    CRC: 21A635C6
    Version: 1.8
    • Warning: Contains 1 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • Dodge Mod.esp
    CRC: EF114562
  • XFLConfig.esp
    CRC: 38D6C2EE
  • XFLPanel.esp
    CRC: C570E3DE
  • better_torches_brighter_torchlight.esp
    CRC: 29540D4F
  • blaze of eventide.esp
    CRC: 10D084A5
  • dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
    CRC: 7AFD4E3E
  • Improved Combat Sounds v2.2.esp
    CRC: 7409094B
  • dD-Dragonborn-Dawnguard-EBT Patch.esp
    CRC: FE5C3763
  • isilNarsil.esp
    CRC: A43571C0
    • Warning: Contains 17 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • skyforgedWeapons.esp
    CRC: B3E7318
  • Immersive Mercenaries.esp
    CRC: 5A0415A9
  • LoversComfort.esp
    CRC: D2DB3313
  • realmshatterweaponpack.esp
    CRC: 52E07A15
  • FNISspells.esp
    CRC: 4F3339DE
  • R18Pn - Eisen Platte Armor.esp
    CRC: 39A7C1BC
  • Immersive Dawnguard.esp
    CRC: A51447CA
    Add: Relev
  • Nicoroshi Creations.esp
    CRC: 8937841C
    Version: 1.2
  • Ritual Armor of Boethiah.esp
    CRC: C6BCA82F
    • Warning: Contains 4 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • Immersive Werewolves.esp
    CRC: DC28389F
  • Immersive Brigands.esp
    CRC: FA1D53B6
  • theRoadstrokersRoyalElvenSet.esp
    CRC: 18DFA3E1
  • Bigger Badder Lich King Version 2.0.esp
    CRC: 480F016B
  • Immersive Factions.esp
    CRC: 43559326
  • ApachiiHelmetWigs.esp
    CRC: 94731DFA
    Version: 1.0
  • LpotDHorse.esp
    CRC: F8E960CF
    • Warning: Contains 3 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • spelltomeconjureetherealhorse.esp
    CRC: AA770622
  • LPotD Armor.esp
    CRC: 550F86D
    • Warning: Contains 1 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • TheEyesOfBeauty.esp
    CRC: F84DC756
    Version: 9
    • Warning: Contains 2 ITM records. Clean with TES5Edit.
  • Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
    CRC: 3DC488D5
    Version: 2.4
  • Bashed Patch, 0.esp
    CRC: 2C5BA0DD
  • Automatic Variants.esp
    CRC: FFEC7778
    • Error: This plugin requires "SkyRe_Main.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "SkyRe_EnemyScaling.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "SkyRe_Races.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "ASIS-Dependency.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
  • ASIS.esp
    CRC: D6BF57C9
    • Error: This plugin requires "SkyRe_Main.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "SkyRe_EnemyScaling.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "ASIS-Dependency.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
    • Error: This plugin requires "PreASISPatch.esp" to be installed, but it is missing.
Summary LOOT Version 0.5.0 Masterlist Version cc5bcf3d1 Masterlist Updating Enabled Total Number of Messages 26 Number of Warnings 17 Number of Errors 8
General Messages
  • Note: Latest LOOT thread.
  • Note: Your SKSE is up-to-date.
  • Note: A dynamically created plugin is installed. Please refer to the authors notes for more information on determining the best load order.
  • Note: It appears you have Fores New Idles in Skyrim installed. Remember to run GenerateFNISforUsers.exe every time you have installed or de-installed FNIS, or a FNIS based mod.
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Edited by Zjosh86, 12 June 2014 - 05:11 AM.


#18
ArtMurder

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General rule of thumb with requiem. If it adds content to the game; armor, weapons, spells, potions, enemies, etc, it NEEDS a patch or it will be unbalanced in some way (either under or over powered) Simply searching "requiem" in the nexus and skimming through the patches is a good way to find good mods that can be made to work with it. Immersive Armors, immersive weapons, immersive creatures, and interesting NPCS all have very good working patches just to name a few if you need more variety. Also, keep in mind anything that does not effect game play directly, as in, graphics, homes,locations, are fine as long as they do not spawn loot or enemies. Also, anything that adds in stuff like houses will likely be unbalanced if you need to pay for the house. It is not to hard to edit mods to work with requiem, depending on the mod itself. Also, things such as dialogue and animation based mods *cough*sexlabmods*cough* work perfectly fine with it out of the box with no need for any kind of patch, and actually add to the "realism" in a more respectable way then in most other mod combinations. 

 

Oh, and yeah, reproccer is kind of a mess, it's out dated and to get it to work well you basically need patches for every mod before running it, which kinds defeats the purpose of even having it...  Over all, requiem has more conflicts, and is harder to add tons of mods on top of, but is a lot more stable then skyre.

 

If requiem is to much for you, I do suggest trying the other mod I linked to, SkyDie, it is new and not very highly rated, but at least to knowledge has an option that does not edit armor/weapons in any way, meaning it does not need hardly any patches.



#19
Zjosh86

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So, far things are working in order. I suppose I can find a weapon editor to help balance certain stuff as I go.

Does this work at all? http://www.nexusmods...rim/mods/25794/

 

http://www.nexusmods...im/mods/33395/?

 

 

Also found skytweak


Edited by Zjosh86, 12 June 2014 - 07:07 PM.


#20
ArtMurder

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I haven't used them, but I don't see any reason why those shouldn't work if you don't mind editing them yourself in game! I personally just stick to immersive weapons/armors and the patches, that adds in plenty for it to feel different and varied for me. Requiem itself even adds in a lot of weapons, like katanas, longarms, and such for more varied combat.

 

In fact, I am going to look into these programs myself. Requiem sometimes has a glitch with flipping the armor values of heavy and light shields, this could be a quick dirty fix to that.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: combat, enhanced, real, realistic, balance

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