Boomers/BoS/Desert Rangers expanded

[dangman4ever]

Another couple of locations that I want to bring in is Area 51 and S4. I know that Area 51 was suppose to be included in F2 and had a group of scientists still living there but was cut from the game so Area 51 is up for grabs. Site S4 is similar to and often mistaken as being Area 51 and part of the Nellis range but this has never been mentioned in Fallout. If Nevada is going to guarded by a coalition government then maybe recruits could be drawn from Area 51 and S4 as there might be remnant U.S soldiers still based there. I am thinking further down the line for this post Hoover Dam mod but I would want to expand the narrative beyond just the Legion and the NCR. What are your thoughts?

Not worth thinking or talking about until you get your original three groups nailed down in terms of lore, reasoning, and situation.

[Degby1]

 

 

 

@Narmz

First and foremost, it seems that your knowledge of the military is a bit...shallow? Many combat veterans don't leave the military mainly for the following reasons:

- They love the sense of duty and purpose they get every day by serving.

- There are no other relative easier avenues of employment for them since there is right now a huge pool of veterans in the job market. Those veterans in the job market often have better resumes, technical training, more time served in the military, and/or combat experience.

- If they serve their time in the military, they can retire after 20 years and get retirement pay from the government

- They don't want to leave their fellow soldiers who they've fought and trained alongside with for years.

Only a few are still in it because they're addicted to combat. Those are usually the ones the military watches out for in the first place. Not to mention those are the ones that other soldiers don't want to be led by. As such, those type of guys end up in the PMCs.

Second, think your example through: If there are Desert Rangers who are effectively combat junkies who like to shoot people up indiscriminately, why would the Courier hire those guys to train and lead the Independent Militia operating near civilian areas? See the problem there? The Courier isn't running Blackwater here.

As for the BoS not wanting to kill the Courier, there are two in-game examples that shows that the BoS aren't as strongly loyal and honorable as you think:

1) Elder McNamara saved the BoS from total destruction after Operation Sunburst five years before the game started. He led BoS forces through NCR lines and kept them hidden and safe in the Hidden Valley Bunker for years. Yet Head Paladin Hardin and others wanted to oust him in order to wage a new war.

2) Veronica was born, raised, and trained in the BoS. Her parents died fighting the NCR. She was the literal life line of the BoS since she helped get supplies for the Mojave BoS. Without her, the BoS would have died from starvation. Even if you convinced Veronica to stay with the BoS, several members still went out and try to kill Veronica and the Courier anyway due to her "heresy". If you convinced Veronica to join the FoA, the BoS still wiped out one of the FoA outposts to ensure that no one would learn of BoS technology.

So there are two in-game examples showing that BoS would and have turned on people who have literally saved their lives.

Now I actually do think that a consortium of independent groups working to defend the Mojave is feasible. However I disagree with your methods and reasoning of actually achieving that.

 

Good points again and thanks for your feedback!

 

I wouldnt say my knowledge of the Military is shallow although i'll admit that i'm probably coming across as having a very limited amount of knowledge on the subject. I know that veterans are in a bad situation when they leave, PTS, limited employment opportunites (although theres a brewery in the U.S who exclusively hire vets), I know a lot feel cheated by going to war with nations based upon lies (but thats a whole other debate that will go completely off topic) and yes a lot have the choice of climbing the ranks or taking the pension money and retiring.

 

Whereas other do join the PMC's. The point I was making with the PMC's however wasnt so much that the Desert Rangers would want to shoot up random people, more the fact that they've been fighting for so long its all they know now only this time they'll be getting a better salary. What shouldnt be overlooked here is that Fallout is in a Post Apocalyptic world. Its a dangerous world where you have to fight to survive, even if u retire you still have to defend your home on the regular by force! There'll always be Fiends to shoot after all, or some other group like the Jackals.

 

As i've said previously I have no doubt that a vast number of the original Desert Rangers would be fed up with all the fighting and be suffering from combat fatigue and no doubt leave with the NCR and take a up a nightclub doorman job in the Boneyard or something along the lines of, maybe even retire altogether and leave in the hills as a farmer. But theres no way that absolutely non of them would stay or atleast want to stay and work with the Courier with the right incentive. Obviously this incentive needs to be worked on.

 

Now for the BoS -

 

Hardin is just a jumped up fat f"ck Friar Tuck lookalike. You always hear other BoS members talking about how he wont challenge McNamara outright, Hardin just likes to talk tough but when push comes to shove he has to go to you, the outsider, to backdoor McNamara out of his position. Sounds a bit like a script from The Wire involving Jimmy McNulty.

It was also McNamara who suggested the truce between the NCR and BoS and even mentions after joining them that he was going to try to dissuade Hardin from retaking HELIOS.

The ending slide also proves that the BoS did honor their end of the deal and allowed the NCR to safely evacuate the Nevada region. Although things became problematic after that as they started to shake down travallers and random people for bits of technology, so once again this is somethng that can be addressed in an extensive quest or series of quests to make them see that they're acting like a c**t.

 

Veronica is proof that even members of the BoS, even if she is the only one in that chapter, can lean more to helping people in a more direct way. Elder Lyons and his chapter did and now they are the new U.S Army in the Washington D.C area. Roger Maxson wanted to help humanity and those first few years they still maintained a very military outlook on things, they just became corrupted slightly over time and obsessed with tech hoarding. Even in the Enclave, Cannibal Johnson is proof that there are those who will go against their codex as it interferes with their moral compass, in Fallout 2 Lt Col Charles Curling of the U.S Chemical Corps can be convinced to turn on his own men for the better of humanity.

 

I think your over estimating the rigid dogma that both groups have in that there are those who can work with others for the better. And yes the "recruitment" process would be problematic to say the least, but lets not forget just how smart, powerful, charasmatic and determined the Courier is after completing FNV.

 

The Desert Rangers don't quite strike me as the type thats in it for the money. There might be one or two that are but the majority? Most likely not based on their survivalist independent nature. You might get one or two Desert Rangers that actually want to retire in the Mojave but those would be the ones who are too old and/or family-less.

Personally I don't think the Desert Rangers are all that. By the time of the game and out of the game, they're effectively the same as the rest of the Veteran Rangers in terms of combat capability and abilities. As such, I'm not seeing a particular great reason to focus just on former Desert Rangers when there's a whole pool of Veteran Rangers.

Like I said earlier, I like your concept but I don't like your implementation. So here's what I recommend:

During the NCR flight, one senior NCR veteran ranger, a former Desert Ranger, decides to stay behind to talk with the Courier. Let's call this veteran ranger, George Washington Bacon. George still believe that Caesar's Legion is still a threat even with its head cut off. So rather than wait for the Legion to ultimately dissolve to infighting, this Veteran Ranger wants to speed that dissolution up. But his commanding officers and higher up in the chain of command are weary of devoting resources, time, and personnel to such an operation in the aftermath of the NCR pullout of the Mojave.

But this George Bacon has convinced three other Veteran Rangers of the danger of the Caesar's Legion. These four Veteran Rangers are so convinced of the continued danger of the Legion that they're ultimately willing to desert the NCR to fight in Legion territory. BUt Bacon is still pragmatic and still wants to make sure that the three Veteran Rangers are taken care of. So here's George's pitch to the Courier:

"Fund our expedition into Legion territory. Even join it if you want to. In exchange and if we do come back, we'll stay in the Mojave and train your militia."

The Courier has the following reasons to commit to this:

1) The Courier desperately needs trained leaders and teachers for his militia forces.

2) The Courier has heard of or seen George Bacon's actions in the Mojave and during the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam. So he knows that Bacon won't take the money and run.

3) The Courier is also convinced about the possibility of a resurgent Legion.

There you go, now you have your trained leaders.

As for the BoS, you and I clearly have different views on Hardin. The very fact that Hardin is resorting to trying to find rules to oust McNamara shows that he ultimately respects the Codex, the Elder himself, and the chain of command. Respect for chain of command is a vital pillar of a military force. If Hardin had ousted McNamara by force with no legal reasoning, that ultimately shows that the BoS is an undisciplined war band at best. Remember that McNulty ended getting f***ed by doing the backdooring as well (The Wire happens to be one of my favorite series FYI :D).

Don't forget that the Brotherhood Outcasts exists as well. That's also proof that there will be those in the Brotherhood that would stay by the Codex at all costs. As history has shown time and time again, just because you're the leader of the most powerful military force in existence does not mean that you'll have an easy or anything less than hard time convincing other leaders to do what you want. North Korea under the Kim Dynasty, North Vietnam under Lê Duẩn, Afghanistan under Karzai, Iraq under Saddamn and al-Maliki, Cuba under Castro, Libya under Gaddafi, Hamas, Israel, and other numerous other examples have shown that you can actually defy the President of the United States Government and the U.S government with little to no reprehensions. Hence why I don't believe that the Courier will be the answer to changing the BoS onto a different path.

 

Well in the case of the DR's there would only be a squad of them. Maybe a small platoon (no more than 26 people). Older members to train the youngers and take a strategic role. I quite like this implementation, using the threat of Legion resurgents. The first few quests would be a search and destroy of Legion forces, whereas this new group would show up and shake things up. Maybe even have them take a DR hostage or even kill one of them so along with the incentives you mentioned, revenge for a fallen multiplies their reason for staying.

 

Funny you mention The Wire, for 3 seasons the Barksdales were the bullies and then along came Marlo. The new group will be like Marlo's crew in that they are more ruthless than the Legion. Although Marlo was very lucky he didnt end up getting shot by Slim Charles and Barksdale crew had some stupid dumb motherf"ckers in it, never the less, Marlo took over much like this new group I want to implement are looking to do. Sensing weakness the dominant groups and attacking them all out!

 

The BoS would stay within their codex to an extent, whereas extenuating circumstances lead to them going against it and fighting alongside the NCR. No doubt Hardin will have his doubts and object as will others, but it seems the majority of the Mojave chapter have more respect for McNamara as evidenced by Ramos who could have dug alot deeper than he did when looking for other ousted elders.

The Outcasts are an interesting bunch, I could see them rejoining the ECBoS maybe if they got in touch with the western BoS at Lost Hills and saw that they too have been dropped from the BoS. But thats a whole other debate, its funny that they berate the LW and cuss wastelanders but then back them when their in a fight and in danger. Could say its self defense but i've seen them run from a fairly safe distance to come help me out so i dont think they are as hard faced as they think they are. Orion Moreno is another prime example, he was Enclave through and through but still could be convinced to help the NCR.

 

As for defying these leaders, in North Korea you'd be executed or simply disappear, f"ck they dont even let people out of the country in a lot of cases i think ive only seen North Korean football (soccer) players outside of NK. The U.S will just drone strike you or lock u up under the NDAA, albeit alot of political opposition is in the U.S relatively unharmed but those FEMA camps are being built for a reason.

 

Back to the BoS, the Courier alone can't change their path but he can be the catalyst or the pivot that leads them to rethink their ideology.

[MarchUntoTorment]

I can't see the Brotherhood betraying their ideological core. They've more than once demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice themselves for its sake. It took them receiving 75% casualties at HELIOS for them to let one pre-war facility go, and even then, many soldiers gave their lives ensuring that ARCHIMEDES couldn't be used by anyone. That wasn't orders - they was their choice.

Put simply, they aren't about to disobey their mission. But some (like Veronica and McNamara if the Courier tries to broker a deal) see the Codex as a set of guidelines to be followed in principle (some elements of which are outdated), whereas others (like Hardin) see at as a set of rules to be followed to the letter. Kind of like the Bible, actually.

 

But the thing that they all agree on is the mission of the BoS - to keep dangerous technology out of the hands of Wastelanders. That is why they exist. They might (after some persuasion) be convinced to lend advanced farming and medical technology to the Courier, but they'd stop in their tracks the moment the Courier started insisting that they share power armour and laser rifles with other factions.

 

They might agree to take on Wastelanders and expand themselves militarily to stand as a defence force of the Mojave (in exchange for a role in the Mojave's governance, likely as some sort of 'technology minister' position). If you give them the impression that you're willing to work with them, then they'll help you - as demonstrated by the NCR questline. If you try to force them or blackmail them into violating the core principle of their organisation, then you'd better have a lot of .50 armour-piercing ammo on you.

[dangman4ever]

In the interest in moving the thread forward, I'm going to ignore that crazy insanity bit about the FEMA camps.

Again, still not seeing why you're hell-bent on getting "Desert Rangers" as a group. As for a new enemy, in order for a new enemy to arise, they'd have to be an existing enemy or several months (maybe a year or so) has passed since the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam for time for a new enemy force to arise to become a prominent threat. Remember what this new enemy force will be facing: A Legion, though fractured, is still composed of decently led and well trained troops that holds large swaths of territory with local populace that may actually prefer the Legion over other options. Not to mention, how do you make an enemy that's actually more brutal and ruthless than the Legion?

There's only two in-game enemies that could be a potential threat in the near term to the Mojave: The tunnelers and maaaybe the 80's. Dealing with the Tunnelers would no doubt include the Big MT from OWB and would make quick work of most forces in the night in the Mojave. The 80's are nowhere near the level of the Legion. Not to mention, the sheer logistics of them moving from their hunting ground to the Mojave.

With the Legion's tight control over their territory, there's realy no chance that any new force would be coming up from Arizona and New Mexico or down from Colorado and Utah. Wyoming is kinda out since the Great Khans do end up going there to revive their group during one of the FNV endings. Definitely not through Oregon since Reno and NCR forces are near that area. So they'd have to come farther east. Maybe Texas.

As for the BoS, remember that the Mojave BoS members already knows what happened in the split between the BoS Outcasts and the Capital Wasteland BoS. Combined with the fact that the remaining Mojave BoS are so few in numbers, that no present and clear danger exists yet, and the Elder's own willingness to ignore whatever technology Veronica brought with her, I don't see the Mojave BoS deviating so far from their core ideals, how corrupted they may be from the original ideals. The Elder will not risk open civil war between the remaining Mojave BoS. In addition, one of those technologies was a giant death ray from space. If that wasn't enough to change the Elder's mind, I don't think anything else will.

Edited August 8, 2014 by dangman4ever

[MarchUntoTorment]

On the other hand, the BoS can be convinced to align with the NCR, which also goes against quite a few of their ideals (and the idea of common sense).

 

I'd say that they'd be able to be convinced to assist the player, at least post-game. Maybe even take on new recruits, although they'd want their own selection protocols. Their core ideology is the control of technology; everything else is secondary.

[Degby1]

 

In the interest in moving the thread forward, I'm going to ignore that crazy insanity bit about the FEMA camps.

Again, still not seeing why you're hell-bent on getting "Desert Rangers" as a group. As for a new enemy, in order for a new enemy to arise, they'd have to be an existing enemy or several months (maybe a year or so) has passed since the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam for time for a new enemy force to arise to become a prominent threat. Remember what this new enemy force will be facing: A Legion, though fractured, is still composed of decently led and well trained troops that holds large swaths of territory with local populace that may actually prefer the Legion over other options. Not to mention, how do you make an enemy that's actually more brutal and ruthless than the Legion?

There's only two in-game enemies that could be a potential threat in the near term to the Mojave: The tunnelers and maaaybe the 80's. Dealing with the Tunnelers would no doubt include the Big MT from OWB and would make quick work of most forces in the night in the Mojave. The 80's are nowhere near the level of the Legion. Not to mention, the sheer logistics of them moving from their hunting ground to the Mojave.

With the Legion's tight control over their territory, there's realy no chance that any new force would be coming up from Arizona and New Mexico or down from Colorado and Utah. Wyoming is kinda out since the Great Khans do end up going there to revive their group during one of the FNV endings. Definitely not through Oregon since Reno and NCR forces are near that area. So they'd have to come farther east. Maybe Texas.

As for the BoS, remember that the Mojave BoS members already knows what happened in the split between the BoS Outcasts and the Capital Wasteland BoS. Combined with the fact that the remaining Mojave BoS are so few in numbers, that no present and clear danger exists yet, and the Elder's own willingness to ignore whatever technology Veronica brought with her, I don't see the Mojave BoS deviating so far from their core ideals, how corrupted they may be from the original ideals. The Elder will not risk open civil war between the remaining Mojave BoS. In addition, one of those technologies was a giant death ray from space. If that wasn't enough to change the Elder's mind, I don't think anything else will.

 

 

On the other hand, the BoS can be convinced to align with the NCR, which also goes against quite a few of their ideals (and the idea of common sense).

 

I'd say that they'd be able to be convinced to assist the player, at least post-game. Maybe even take on new recruits, although they'd want their own selection protocols. Their core ideology is the control of technology; everything else is secondary.

Brilliant, forgot about The Tunnelers! They would be a formidable foe and very do-able. To begin with I just thought that the Desert Rangers would be a welcome addition to the task force, I wasnt hell bent on getting them but now its somehow gone down that road and it seems that others support the idea of having a few of them show up. I had the Boomers in mind more as I feel that they have a bigger role to play. Westside Militia and Great Khans would make up the bulk the defense force whereas the Boomers, BoS and DRs would be a de facto Special Forces group. Even if the Securitron Army is blown up theres still enough patrolling the Strip after being upgraded to police that area. The Kings, the FoA and even the Gun Runners can join in, the aim of the mod is what happens in the Mojave now after the NCR-Legion war. Albeit focussed on the Boomers, BoS n whatever DRs stay. The Chairmen and Omertas can hold their terrortory to.

 

The BoS have already supported rival factions so I still don't see how it is impossible for them to play an active part in patrolling their terrortory for the benefit of everyone else. There are no subordinate groups, except for the WM and maybe The Kings as they are being trained by the others. As for them and technology, Elijah forced them to stay at Helios when they wanted to retreat, and McNamara recognises that are in trouble if they dont expand their horizons although wanting to respect the codex is a priority for him, but yet he still recruits an outsider to take care of serious s#*! that other Paladins should have been able to do. For the BoS I propose that they still carry on collecting technology, reclaim Helios, given access to the Enclave Remnant bunker in return for patrolling without harrassing people and training other defense force troops. As an added bonus, they get access to Big MT on completion. Think of what kind of weapon and armor upgrades can come as a result.

 

As for BoS recruitment process, maybe a few CW BoS Outcasts join their ranks, that way they get to collect technology and see that even the Mojave Chapter recognise the importance working together with other groups for mutual benefit.