Jump to content

Photo

Why does everyone here seem and/or say they kill Loghain every time?


  • Please log in to reply
139 replies to this topic

#131
brokenergy

brokenergy

    Damn it Luke!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,743 posts

The Grey Wardens want to bring in reinforcements from Orlais; that;s enough reason for Loghain to have them killed.


And you assume that many of these Wardens are doing this for a good cause? Many come from Orlais and have contacts with nobility. To assume this idealistic view that Wardens give up politics and richs for the good of all is silly.


So? More likely it would've become a dual kingdom. If Calian would've married Celene, would that mean Ferelden would become subjugated to Orlesian rule again? That seems unlikely.



With Orlais as it's ruler. Do you think the people of Ferelden would want that, considering that they have been abused for a 150 years of occupation? Many would skin Cailan alive when that happens.

Killing the Wardens will only result in losing Ferelden to the Blight. So if Loghain is successfull, everything he's being trying to save will be destroyed.


No. What the Warden did was stupid and totally out of line with the GW mantra. If they were dead and Duncan was alive, the first thing he would have done is to leave Ferelden and rally the rest of the GW's to stop the Blight's spread. Ferelden was already doomed.

Loghain could've done something about Howe's treachery; he knew about Howe's actions as he tells the Human Noble at Ostagar that he is familiar with the king's promise. When he states at the Landsmeet, that "whatever Howe may have done, he should have been brought before the Senesechal", makes him a bloody hypocrite. His alliance with Howe is only convenient when Loghain can benefit from Howe's actions.
So not bringing Howe to justice, he allows to go unpunished.



You are meta-gaming at this point. You don't know if Loghain knew enough about Howe's plans, considering that he wanted to kill Anora and blame it on Eamon.

At least Eamon isn't blind to the Blight's threat.


But Eamon is hungry for power. The Blight works well for him.

If he wins, Ferelden is doomed. Just because Loghain is blind to see the true threat of the Blight, doesn't make him right to destroy all of Ferelden's chances to oppose and overcome the Darkspawn menace. His actions will bring about the downfall of everything he cherishes and all he is trying to save.


If he wins, Ferelden is united and can fight slow the threat down till GWs come and finish it once and for all.

His views will lead to the total annihilation of everything he wants to save. Though his views may be justifiable, his actions -if successfull- will doom every living soul in his "beloved Ferelden". He will brook no threat to Ferelden's safety -and its independence- from anyone. Clearly he fails to realise that the biggest threat to Ferelden is his own one track mind towards everything Orlesian. That makes Loghain the bigger threat to Ferelden,, than the Wardens and Eamon combined. Loghain simply is too pigheaded to do what is right, even if it means turning to Orlais for their contingent of Grey Wardens So maybe this isn't an issue of legal vs illegal, but one of whose actions are detrimental versus beneficial to Ferelden.


While he doesn't see the Blight as a threat, it must be pointed out that the Blight was never a real threat. Preivous Blights were much bigger in scale and time while this Blight was small. It's like watching a hyped up action movie only to have a anticlimatic ending. Even if the Blight is stopped, Orlais still remains, the Qunari still remain, all of Ferelden's enemies still remain.

#132
Alehazar

Alehazar

    Neuropath

  • Premium Member
  • 1,318 posts


The Grey Wardens want to bring in reinforcements from Orlais; that;s enough reason for Loghain to have them killed.


And you assume that many of these Wardens are doing this for a good cause? Many come from Orlais and have contacts with nobility. To assume this idealistic view that Wardens give up politics and richs for the good of all is silly.

Then the game should never have been released as it was; the designers should have added the option for the Wardens to leave Ferelden, cross into Orlais, let the Blight swallow Loghain's beloved country and then destroy the archdemon when it starts to push to the Orlesian border. Ferelden is a sacrificed. That way the Wardens don'tt have to go through all the trouble of getting the Dalish, the mages and the dwarves to honor their treaties. They don't oppose Loghain, they don't have to defuse a civil war. They can save time, money, effort and other limited resources by turning their backs on Ferelden.


So? More likely it would've become a dual kingdom. If Calian would've married Celene, would that mean Ferelden would become subjugated to Orlesian rule again? That seems unlikely.



With Orlais as it's ruler. Do you think the people of Ferelden would want that, considering that they have been abused for a 150 years of occupation? Many would skin Cailan alive when that happens.

So for fear of Orlais, everything must be sacrifced? Would Loghain rather destroy Ferelden himself, so no one can lay claim to it? Sounds like killing ones own children to prevent them from dying by random accidents.

Killing the Wardens will only result in losing Ferelden to the Blight. So if Loghain is successfull, everything he's being trying to save will be destroyed.


No. What the Warden did was stupid and totally out of line with the GW mantra. If they were dead and Duncan was alive, the first thing he would have done is to leave Ferelden and rally the rest of the GW's to stop the Blight's spread. Ferelden was already doomed.

If Duncan truly believed that trying to fight the darkspawn at Ostagar was silly -that Ferelden was doomed from the getgo- he'd have left before the massacre. He'd probably not have waited for Cailan to get his army ready.

Loghain could've done something about Howe's treachery; he knew about Howe's actions as he tells the Human Noble at Ostagar that he is familiar with the king's promise. When he states at the Landsmeet, that "whatever Howe may have done, he should have been brought before the Senesechal", makes him a bloody hypocrite. His alliance with Howe is only convenient when Loghain can benefit from Howe's actions.
So not bringing Howe to justice, he allows to go unpunished.



You are meta-gaming at this point. You don't know if Loghain knew enough about Howe's plans, considering that he wanted to kill Anora and blame it on Eamon.

I thought it was Howe's idea to kill Anora and blame it on Eamon; as Anora is a prisoner within the Arl of Denerim Estate, and Howe is also the current Arl of Denerim.
Loghain may not know about this plot either; if Howe kills Anora he can feed Loghain any lie as to how she died.
Anora cannot honestly have thought her own father would have her killed; sometimes she decides to support her father. If Loghain truly wanted to kill his daughter, then without her, he could become king instead of regent. I'd say he's gone 'round the bend if that was really something he seriously contemplated.


At least Eamon isn't blind to the Blight's threat.


But Eamon is hungry for power. The Blight works well for him.

And Loghain isn't?

If he wins, Ferelden is doomed. Just because Loghain is blind to see the true threat of the Blight, doesn't make him right to destroy all of Ferelden's chances to oppose and overcome the Darkspawn menace. His actions will bring about the downfall of everything he cherishes and all he is trying to save.


If he wins, Ferelden is united and can fight slow the threat down till GWs come and finish it once and for all.

Why would Grey Wardens come to save the day, when Loghain has targeted them as regicides, sends assassins after them and hunts them down like animals?
If they really have ties with Orlesian nobility and play politics like anyone else, they'd probably resent Loghain for such actions. And as they do not seem to be tied down by idealistic motives, the Wardens can simply wait for Loghain's forces to be properly decimated, then move in to kill both the archdemon and Loghain's battle-weary troops. The Loghain loses still.


His views will lead to the total annihilation of everything he wants to save. Though his views may be justifiable, his actions -if successfull- will doom every living soul in his "beloved Ferelden". He will brook no threat to Ferelden's safety -and its independence- from anyone. Clearly he fails to realise that the biggest threat to Ferelden is his own one track mind towards everything Orlesian. That makes Loghain the bigger threat to Ferelden,, than the Wardens and Eamon combined. Loghain simply is too pigheaded to do what is right, even if it means turning to Orlais for their contingent of Grey Wardens So maybe this isn't an issue of legal vs illegal, but one of whose actions are detrimental versus beneficial to Ferelden.


While he doesn't see the Blight as a threat, it must be pointed out that the Blight was never a real threat. Preivous Blights were much bigger in scale and time while this Blight was small. It's like watching a hyped up action movie only to have a anticlimatic ending. Even if the Blight is stopped, Orlais still remains, the Qunari still remain, all of Ferelden's enemies still remain.


Not a real threat? The darkspawn have found an old God, tainted it into an Archdemon. The archdemon can unify the otherwise ragtag bands of darkspawn into a formidable fighting force. "Unstoppable" is what Duncan called it.
So if Loghain succeeds and the Wardens die, the "never real threat" will be left unchecked and soon it will be a Blight of such proportions that it could easily dwarf the magnitude of previous Blights. The archdemon cannot die, if not slain by a Grey Warden. So Loghain will never be able to contain the darkspawn. They will spread -and unified by the Archdemon, they will become the unstoppable force that Duncan dreaded. Then it doesn't really matter whether Orlais, the Qunari and other enemies of Ferelden remain; there will be no more Ferelden.


#133
FallenHeroX

FallenHeroX

    Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 390 posts
i execute him 99% of the time what loghain did to the pc and the wardens is unforgivable last time when i played origins i dueled loghain my self and let alister execute him

Edited by FallenHeroX, 12 October 2011 - 03:03 AM.


#134
Sync182

Sync182

    Fan

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 493 posts

* That was illegal (I give you that) but he need a way to fund his forces. Most likely that this was one of Howe's plans rather than Loghain's
* Same as above
* Also same
* He didn't allowed it, Howe did it on his own for petty revenge


By knowing what happened and not seeing Howe hauled off for it, Loghain is every bit as culpable. "Harbouring a criminal" I believe the term is. ;)

With Orlais as it's ruler. Do you think the people of Ferelden would want that, considering that they have been abused for a 150 years of occupation? Many would skin Cailan alive when that happens.


I thought it was about 80 years. Loghain refers to a century during the War Council meeting right after the Joining ritual, but I always thought that was just Loghain rounding up for effect. *shrugs*

Maybe Cailan is right about Empress Celene. Maybe the intended alliance - maybe marriage? - is to strengthen ties with Orlais, and Loghain is determined to live in the past. ;)

#135
brokenergy

brokenergy

    Damn it Luke!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,743 posts
@ Alehazar: lol that's funny, especially since the game beats you over the head with a stick that there is something more coming that is worse. Not once but twice! Choosing not to listen and complain later when it happens is a problem some have to deal with it.

@Sync: One of more outstanding theories that people hate Loghain is people's problem with supporting someone who is the enemy. It's really common and has to the "thou you must win" syndrome that is ingrained into people.

However, everyone keeps on repeating that Cailan and Celene would create a duel monarchy after the fact that Orlais is a regional powerhouse (like 16th century France), home to the Chantry and exporters of culture after Tervinter. Who do you think is going to get the upper hand if Ferelden and Orlais combine? What was the point of Maric rebeling if his son is going to squnder all his hard work? Do you think that the nobles in Ferelden will approve, no less than Loghain, the king's father-in-law? To think that it's going to end up like sunshine and rainbows then you are sorely mistaken. It happened in real life too.

#136
cheburator987

cheburator987

    Enthusiast

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 220 posts
Logein is a traitor.Death to traitors!!!
In Russia it's simple-wall and the firing squad.
I am sick of your democrasy bulls*** and tolerance.
Traitors should be killed.On spot.

#137
Alehazar

Alehazar

    Neuropath

  • Premium Member
  • 1,318 posts

@ Alehazar: lol that's funny, especially since the game beats you over the head with a stick that there is something more coming that is worse. Not once but twice! Choosing not to listen and complain later when it happens is a problem some have to deal with it.


During the field test in the Korcari Wilds Flemeth says: "... tell them that this Blight's threat is greater than they think...."
So saying that this Blight is not really a threat -whether or not compared to previous Blights- seems rather silly.
When she sends Morrigan with you and you decide to question Flemeth before you leave for Lothering, she tells you that the Wardens should not rely on anyone else defeating the Blight. While Loghain is a different story to her, he apparently believes the Blight is an army he can outmanoeuver -that he doesn't see the real threat behind it: the Archdemon.
Since it is common sense not to fight a war on two separate fronts -that usually is the one thing that will make you lose the war, not being able to commit your forces as a whole- Loghain must be taken out of the equation, since his meddling keeps the nation divided.
Then when you arrive in Denerim -Arl Eamon's estate- he has the gall to say that we are the ones who divide the nation "while a Blight claws at our land.".
Even at the Landsmeet he says to all assembled: "None of you have a say...... how dare you judge me.....".
If you simply add up all of Loghain's actions since Ostagar, it is evident to me that his crimes warrant capital punishment.

And Riordan's claim that there are too few Wardens in Ferelden and they need all the help they can get is rather redundant; even is Loghain joins, the tally remains three, as Alistair will leave. If my Warden had the option to leave as well if Riordan is so intent on making Loghain a Warden, I'd be out of there as well.
"We aren't judges", Riordan says, but in my opinion Loghain's atrocities simply cannot be overlooked.

Usually as a human-hating elf (I like to roleplay and since DAO is an RPG) I have very little respect for Alistair -since he doesn't want to assume the responsibility of making decisions, but still second-guesses my every decision if they are not within the ballpark of his moral standards- but my resentment for him pales compared to the utter loathing I feel for Loghain.
History is ultimately written by the victor; only then is it decided whether underground freedom fighters who rebel against the invading forces, will revered as heroes or reviled as terrorists.

#138
NeoKingArthur

NeoKingArthur

    Faithful poster

  • Premium Member
  • 1,211 posts
I prefer to have as many people alive as possible. And being a grey warden is like something awesome. I like forgiving people and I believe in redemption not through death. So I keep him alive. Sure alistair will leave, but at least he's hardened King and married to Anora. By the time of Awakening, Alistair would have forgive my warden for sparing Loghain, even though he still despise him.

So, my ending would always be:
  • Magi Warden = Alive and become the next Warden Commander and next become the new Teyrn of Gwaren after marrying with Leliana, the new Teyrna. (while his cousin is a Kirkwall nobleman. Imagine, Two Amells as two separate noble houses in Thedas. Can't get anymore epic than that.)
  • Alistair = Becomes king and married to Anora. His hardened personality would make him express enthusiasm to the art of governing. Able to govern the country with humourous smile yet firm and just. Anora who are already loved by the people and her governing skill is the other side of that coin. (Awesome Royal family)
  • Anora = Happy that her father is alive and well and married to Cailan's "Twin" but a better person because of his contributions during the blight and his governing skills that keeps getting better and better. Unlike Cailan who spends his time daydreaming while Anora's busy running the kingdom.
  • Loghain = Become a grey warden and finally understands the necessity of the order by experiencing it first-hand. Transferred to Orlais, the land that he hates the most but realise that the Grey Wardens of Orlais is an independent order separate from the Orlesian Government. He soon understands that and still happy to be able actively defend the land from Darkspawn.
See, everyone's happy. Even if I kill loghain, There's only eliminating that fourth point. So having Loghain survives is just better ending for me. I may not be making good decisions during the game, but I always make sure that my choices has the best outcome for everyone.

#139
Kage1986

Kage1986

    Stranger

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Flemeth to Maric,The Stolen Throne. If you keep this one with you, he will betray you ,each time worse than the last. Loghain betrays everybody, and dies for sure in my playthroughs.



#140
fraquar

fraquar

    Faithful poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,886 posts

Lol, a 10 year old necro'd thread.   That might be a record.

The cut scenes condemn him, and you have so many that there can be only one outcome.

Off with his head - treason.

 

Early on he has a point; why waste an army in a fight you can't win.

Looks bad (the outcome), but makes sense.

Everything else after that you are exposed to roots him out for who he really is.

 

My only question for the rest of the game was this - was he possessed?   That was his only saving grace, just like Connor.






IPB skins by Skinbox
Page loaded in: 0.978 seconds