85 replies to this topic

[DrNewcenstein]

The core game files would have to be cut into fine pieces to start with any sense of standardization or compartmentalization. For Actors alone, you would need to separate all the individual components - Race, Stats, Factions, Inventory, Behavior, AI packages, etc etc. This would open up limitless customizing options, where you can use one modder's Stats For Lydia and another modder's Lydia Face Replacer and another modder's Lydia Behavior Replacer ad infinium, but you'd hit the 256 ESPs cap quickly. Sure, you can use an external app to merge the various hypothetical Lydia Overhaul mods into one, but then how reliable is homebrew software when the core "professional" product has such a buggy reputation itself? Skyrim crashes BECAUSE you click "Play", with no mods. If all you have in your Data folder is Skyrim.esm, it crashes.

 

Without an unlimited mod count, an unlimited memory capacity, and a complete rebuilding of the core game system, I don't see a better way of doing things than we have now.

[angrybuffalo238]

A problem with a community like this is that there is no uniformity to anything that goes on. People just 'do what ever they want' and in the end what we find are many hundreds of mods that really arent worth anything, sorry to say...

 

On the other hand, if modders were to get organized and set up a system of modding not only would all the extreme conflicts of many mods not happen as often but the need for patchs would be addressed much faster.

 

Ideally if there was a kind of template system in which different aspects of the game were corralled into compartments and each compartment was treated as a whole item them modding this or that aspect of the game would be more productive rather than making one mod that touches half the game and trying to figure out where that weird thing floating in the sky came from...

 

Put it in these terms. Graphics is its own compartment, while animations often play a role in graphics they are both totally different objects. If all graphic modding was centralized then you would have the collective development of all mods in one place allowing you to pick and choose what aspects you want and slap it all together into a specialized package. Then once you like the way it looks you can then go to animations and build a package there that suits the desired effects.

 

Normally each mod is a stand alone with its own graphics and animations assembled which most of the time are fixed and do not allow the end user to change it without making a new version of the mod themselves. But by making different things modular and pooling the resources in one place it could be very easy to get a well polished product that can be altered great or small to the end users desired outcome.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

A problem with a community like this is that there is no uniformity to anything that goes on. People just 'do what ever they want' and in the end what we find are many hundreds of mods that really arent worth anything, sorry to say...

 

On the other hand, if modders were to get organized and set up a system of modding not only would all the extreme conflicts of many mods not happen as often but the need for patchs would be addressed much faster.

 

Ideally if there was a kind of template system in which different aspects of the game were corralled into compartments and each compartment was treated as a whole item them modding this or that aspect of the game would be more productive rather than making one mod that touches half the game and trying to figure out where that weird thing floating in the sky came from...

 

Put it in these terms. Graphics is its own compartment, while animations often play a role in graphics they are both totally different objects. If all graphic modding was centralized then you would have the collective development of all mods in one place allowing you to pick and choose what aspects you want and slap it all together into a specialized package. Then once you like the way it looks you can then go to animations and build a package there that suits the desired effects.

 

Normally each mod is a stand alone with its own graphics and animations assembled which most of the time are fixed and do not allow the end user to change it without making a new version of the mod themselves. But by making different things modular and pooling the resources in one place it could be very easy to get a well polished product that can be altered great or small to the end users desired outcome.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

 

On the other hand, if modders were to get organized

So, we should form some kind of modders guild?   Appoint leaders and form a committee to set rules that all modders MUST follow or suffer some consequences?

 

"You, modder number 37685 failed to follow directive 37. The punishment for that is drawing and quartering."

Nah, I don't think that is exactly what you had in mind.

 

What you really want is some kind of standardization - and it's just not going to happen overnight as nearly every modder wants to do things their own way - this is a characteristic of creative people. They resent being told how to be creative and if you try to force it, they will intentionally do it different.

 

"MY way is better because I like it better than YOUR way."     - Who decides which way is the 'one' right way? You? Me? ( I don't want that job) some unknown faceless committee that makes up directive 37 which must be obeyed?

 

Yes it would be nice if everyone adhered to the same standards. Or even some standards.   And there is some effort in that direction. We try to have recommended standards, but modders are just too independent - it's like herding cats.

 

Then we have the SDK (CS, CK, GECK, or whatever they call it for each game) - every game is different and has a different way that things have to be done and no rules come with any of them - so standardization between games is out the window.

 

One of these days we are going to get organized. But today isn't that day. And tomorrow isn't looking too good either.

 

We are always open to suggestions as to how things can be done better, but hard and fast rules just won't work in a community like this one.

 

Well a the risk of getting into a fight with a moderator... My way is better because I dont just look at one thing in one direction with one purpose in mind.

 

I take the whole picture of what something is at face value and then take into account all the divergent trees that spread out in all directions as real factors and not just 'my opinion' or 'what i want to do'

 

For my tastes specifically I want everything to be exceedingly realistic. While I see this as a superior way to build a role playing experience there are always going to be people who want to play casually. So what i was saying with the whole template system is that you allow the end user to pick and choose modules to fit the taste of that play style.

 

What im talking about is not about forcing people to behave a certain way, but rather the industrializing of all systems where as they are seems to by quite feudal in nature.

 

Consider this, you are a green modder joining the nexus community. When you pop into the 'workshop' you are immediately confronted with the spread sheet of how to make a mod in a universal format and given the tools to do so.  It would be like having the engine of a vehicle standardized in every aspect of how it works and when someone comes in to 'modify' the engine each part unplugs leaving a free slot for what ever the modifier wants to put in its place. And further more there would be slots on top of those standard parts allowing for additions so that the part in question can become more than it was initially intended to be.

 

I might just be rambling at this point but thats as clearly as I can think to put it into words. And really when we think about modding the real issue really just boils down to 'I want things to look this way' 'I want to add this new stuff' 'I want to change the way this behaves' 'I want to fix this problem' and for me to say 'well look, if everybody just does whatever they want because their free to do so then none of these parts are going to fit together and nothing is going to function the way its supposed to...' I dont think such a remark is in any way over any kind of realistic line...

 

I mean consider modding without a Nexus Mod Manager and just throwing mods in left and right without any consideration for keeping track of what went where. You are going to find huge catastrophic problems and have no idea how to fix it other than whipping the whole thing clean and starting over. I find the whole prospect to be a waste of time and energy.

 

I mean hey, ill just be perfectly honest with you, I find the whole idea of individual opinions to be a form of insanity. The world we live in is built and functions upon cold hard facts and brutal mathematics. To say that everyone can be right in their own mind and has a right to that is insane. I defy you to break a law and tell the cop that your opinion is different and that he cant force his on you, see what he does in response...

 

But in the end, if anyone should try to impose anything in any capacity feelings will get hurt and trivial violence will ensue... So rather than trying to have either a fascistic or an anarchistic system why not just live by consent and save some time and energy?

[Boombro]

There is also the problem of them being picky as hell. 

Being picky and not making your own mods is one hell of a problem.

[simtam]

Sure, you can use an external app to merge the various hypothetical Lydia Overhaul mods into one, but then how reliable is homebrew software when the core "professional" product has such a buggy reputation itself? Skyrim crashes BECAUSE you click "Play", with no mods. If all you have in your Data folder is Skyrim.esm, it crashes.

 

It's pretty reliable.

 

You are comparing relatively simple data editor/processor with fully-fledged game engine, and the former is much simpler piece of software.

[hereticalzealot]

 

A problem with a community like this is that there is no uniformity to anything that goes on. People just 'do what ever they want' and in the end what we find are many hundreds of mods that really arent worth anything, sorry to say...

 

On the other hand, if modders were to get organized and set up a system of modding not only would all the extreme conflicts of many mods not happen as often but the need for patchs would be addressed much faster.

 

Ideally if there was a kind of template system in which different aspects of the game were corralled into compartments and each compartment was treated as a whole item them modding this or that aspect of the game would be more productive rather than making one mod that touches half the game and trying to figure out where that weird thing floating in the sky came from...

 

Put it in these terms. Graphics is its own compartment, while animations often play a role in graphics they are both totally different objects. If all graphic modding was centralized then you would have the collective development of all mods in one place allowing you to pick and choose what aspects you want and slap it all together into a specialized package. Then once you like the way it looks you can then go to animations and build a package there that suits the desired effects.

 

Normally each mod is a stand alone with its own graphics and animations assembled which most of the time are fixed and do not allow the end user to change it without making a new version of the mod themselves. But by making different things modular and pooling the resources in one place it could be very easy to get a well polished product that can be altered great or small to the end users desired outcome.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

 

On the other hand, if modders were to get organized

So, we should form some kind of modders guild?   Appoint leaders and form a committee to set rules that all modders MUST follow or suffer some consequences?

 

"You, modder number 37685 failed to follow directive 37. The punishment for that is drawing and quartering."

Nah, I don't think that is exactly what you had in mind.

 

What you really want is some kind of standardization - and it's just not going to happen overnight as nearly every modder wants to do things their own way - this is a characteristic of creative people. They resent being told how to be creative and if you try to force it, they will intentionally do it different.

 

"MY way is better because I like it better than YOUR way."     - Who decides which way is the 'one' right way? You? Me? ( I don't want that job) some unknown faceless committee that makes up directive 37 which must be obeyed?

 

Yes it would be nice if everyone adhered to the same standards. Or even some standards.   And there is some effort in that direction. We try to have recommended standards, but modders are just too independent - it's like herding cats.

 

Then we have the SDK (CS, CK, GECK, or whatever they call it for each game) - every game is different and has a different way that things have to be done and no rules come with any of them - so standardization between games is out the window.

 

One of these days we are going to get organized. But today isn't that day. And tomorrow isn't looking too good either.

 

We are always open to suggestions as to how things can be done better, but hard and fast rules just won't work in a community like this one.

 

Well a the risk of getting into a fight with a moderator... My way is better because I dont just look at one thing in one direction with one purpose in mind.

 

I take the whole picture of what something is at face value and then take into account all the divergent trees that spread out in all directions as real factors and not just 'my opinion' or 'what i want to do'

 

For my tastes specifically I want everything to be exceedingly realistic. While I see this as a superior way to build a role playing experience there are always going to be people who want to play casually. So what i was saying with the whole template system is that you allow the end user to pick and choose modules to fit the taste of that play style.

 

What im talking about is not about forcing people to behave a certain way, but rather the industrializing of all systems where as they are seems to by quite feudal in nature.

 

Consider this, you are a green modder joining the nexus community. When you pop into the 'workshop' you are immediately confronted with the spread sheet of how to make a mod in a universal format and given the tools to do so.  It would be like having the engine of a vehicle standardized in every aspect of how it works and when someone comes in to 'modify' the engine each part unplugs leaving a free slot for what ever the modifier wants to put in its place. And further more there would be slots on top of those standard parts allowing for additions so that the part in question can become more than it was initially intended to be.

 

I might just be rambling at this point but thats as clearly as I can think to put it into words. And really when we think about modding the real issue really just boils down to 'I want things to look this way' 'I want to add this new stuff' 'I want to change the way this behaves' 'I want to fix this problem' and for me to say 'well look, if everybody just does whatever they want because their free to do so then none of these parts are going to fit together and nothing is going to function the way its supposed to...' I dont think such a remark is in any way over any kind of realistic line...

 

I mean consider modding without a Nexus Mod Manager and just throwing mods in left and right without any consideration for keeping track of what went where. You are going to find huge catastrophic problems and have no idea how to fix it other than whipping the whole thing clean and starting over. I find the whole prospect to be a waste of time and energy.

 

  Some actual idea of order would be in order in all the madness, am I wrong? From what I've learned about modding in my some six years of hoping and writing and dreaming and plotting and planning is if youre going it alone and you think youre gonna go big-go home before you s*** yourself. OR know each section you want changed-animation-3D models for armour weapons creatures and locations-quest design-scripting for quests, activated static objects, activated movable objects, dialogue editing and radiant/activated events scenes, quests and oh my gods(if i continue this list rant I'll catch fire). those with big imaginations and little experience are gonna be pissed at some point or another.

 

 Personally, im so green brelyna maryons trying to counterspell me  . this is only my second nexus post. i see a community of half powerful dreamers and creators divided by ego and convention. i see a big golden beautiful dragon flying in a circle, biting at its tail, blowing smoke and fire up its own arse. but i do see big gold. not money-gold (though the possibility is there for the seekers). but only if we learn together will the green modders with no knowledge and deep gnawing inner doubt about getting their imaginations realized be brought up into the fold of near developer studio level greatness.

 

  The players want to play, the creators want to create. how does one go from player to content creator? that, i am still trying to find out but i DO KNOW that I have substance (arrogant? eh i hope not-please bear with me) as a writer and future level designer, loremaster, 3d artist, voice actor, script writer, content creator and contributor. i have toiled over a apocrypha of scribbles and empty words in hope that i may one day play them out and watch my friends live a story WE wrote together. i know i am not alone in my frustrations and i hope that I and all others like me can YES guild up and ragtag together, peaceably and with common sense and common respect to ALL of our COMMON desires make them a reality. for those who learn in different ways than the gray standard, there is no other way and their visions have been ignored. all the resources are so scattered about and require so many format conversions one could turn to Jyggalag just THINKING about it all.                   
 

 ranting and rambling now, im just trying to say angrybuffalo is dead on the money- we (uninitiated-unexperienced modder hopefuls) essentially have no way to see our ideas realized with no actual COMMUNITY and just a couple million dreamers rehashing the same problems since the 11-11-11 release.
the Interesting NPCS and the full Tamriel project teams are the god-muse-heroes for me right now and that im sure those just started with one crazy kid with some damn good ideas he brought to others until there was an indie mod crew working TOGETHER blasting out one of the most life-giving mods in the nexus.
 

if any of that sounded bastard-y, sorry.  if anyone agrees PLEASE let me know as i am RAVENOUS to work alongside other mad guys and gals and spin a twisted tale or two 

[bben46]

In any system such as you propose, someone has to be in charge. someone has to make the rules, someone has to make the decisions as to what you can or cannot do. You just lost about 85% of the competent modders. These are not team players, they don't take orders very well. Just as many creative people in other fields are not. I have watched as various groups tried to work together to make large mods - most of them fell apart long before they completed anything (not all though) due to differences in opinion on how things should be done. As soon as you make a standard, and insist that this is the way it MUST be done, someone is going to do it different, and possibly better. (Now we get into that Directive 37 scenario )

 

The tools are not standardized - so, if  you really want to 'industrialize'   modding - you may consider working on standardizing the tools we are forced to use. Give us an SDK that just works, and works the same for all games. Unfortunately, the tools change with every new game - what works for Skyrim is not going to be possible in Witcher 3 - and there are going to be things you can do in Redkit (the Witcher SDK) that you cannot do using the Skyrim CK. And those things you can do will have to be done completely differently. Even Bethesda has changed their SDK for each new game - similar, but enough different to drive you nuts.

 

It would be great if we could just learn one way of doing modding and it worked for all games. I will wish you luck in herding your cats.

 

One of these days we have to get organized.

[hereticalzealot]

well we have two conversations now: the matter of getting n00b modders trained up and the matter of the who whole of the modding "industry" and it IS becoming one if it wasnt already. three kind of actually cos this is all about In regards to mod teams, if you are thinking about doing a large project and attempting to recruit others to help.

 

• If you really want your idea come to life you are best to learn how to mod yourself.

  Check out the nexus wiki and Google for many very helpful guides to get you started.

   

  Things to keep in mind when starting to make mods for the first time.

   

  • Start small, do not jump into wanting to make a complete overhaul with no mod making experience.

   

  • Realize it can be time consuming but rewarding in the end.

   

  • You do not have to release every small mod and change you make, a lot of the time they have probably already been done.

  definitely true, the greats are out there. but they can become drowned  

  • Mod for yourself, not for fame and glory but because you want something and will hopefully enjoy it.

   

  Do some work beforehand beyond just the idea/concept, people want to see you can actually contribute to a team you are trying to form.

          If you just come with an idea and no real preexisting work done the only people you will get wanting to help will just have ideas and no experience to.  and I totally welcome that!

If you really want your idea come to life you are best to learn how to mod yourself..............................................................

Check out the nexus wiki and Google for many very helpful guides to get you started...........................................................

 

Things to keep in mind when starting to make mods for the first time.

 

• Start small, do not jump into wanting to make a complete overhaul with no mod making experience.

 

• Realize it can be time consuming but rewarding in the end. for the gods

 

• You do not have to release every small mod and change you make, a lot of the time they have probably already been done.

but this STILL happens and mainly because every modder is naturally going to want to see what they can do with their new knowledge and if they did it right. and its good to get different tastes satisfied but the problem is that we see a lot of the same issues with compatibility research and whatnot

for the first its really just a matter of someone, anybody please finally finishing the goddamn Creation Kit Wiki (no exterior mod tut saga? and all those bloody red empty links? that really grinds my gears) and to really get everyone to understand the bare basics of what they want for their modding experience and everyone's future playing experiences and what it will take. for me?

 

   I'm f***ing touched with insanity: I want to redux all of the base questlines, (especially that damn 8-quest witch house with bells) do something similar to Interesting NPCs with introducing a vast cast of rich, real characters, implement a new combat system. A new magicka system. A new perk tree, skill and leveling system. A new AI system. (i say new but its really just re-balances. most of which wont be done and might do to work with other mods as bases) introduce my own original storylines that tie into the world and lore. im holding out, i admit but im 85% sure i can get the foundations done myself. Quest and story design ive got down pat but i hear tales of issues when bothering the main questlines. I love papyrus script because its easy to keep track of your mod's goal (i bet im gonna bloody regret saying that eventually) but naturally voice actors are needed. proper script writers are needed for referral. 3D animators for actors, world and objects are needed, riggers for NEW animations.......I'm making myself cry. essentially this mod is bigger than me. it will take more than me. Especially because I, like many others at this interesting time on Gaea, am piss poor and will have no way to buy any of the $200+x pro tools that one uses to become a modgod. I ain't scared either- just cant remember last time I slept.          i believe in magic when it comes to true teamwork

Now on the budding opportunity for anyone with an internet connection, a couple thousand bucks for pro tools, some substantial free time and some imagination to make a nice living doing some of the most coveted work ever? well its been my dream since third grade so... i hope the big game development houses that let us in don't close the gates when technology is finally catching up but........ I'm used to being disappointed. I agree with the issue of modding between games. We DO need a universal platform but I believe THAT will just take some more applied insanity.....More, on that i will have to post, most definitely in the future.

With regards to getting the knowledge out and into one detailed and comprehensive place, it takes just that. and maaaaaaaybe some kind of tweak to the listing. Directive 37 in any strong group with clear goals should be don't be an inconsiderate ass or simply don't be a part of the team. there are always differences and to avoid those it does help to plan together and talk about personal methods before diving in to the mines. I'm a bit of a renegade myself, that's why I mod but I do know when to be personable and the problem is we have a lot who aren't. But, finally with some more talks about the issues we can come to quicker resolutions. 

Edited by hereticalzealot, 26 May 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[Morgwynn]

Team work can be great but individual creativity is wonderful as well. You know I've requested many mods for Skyrim and have even been fortunate enough to have one made but when making a mod request I think the saying " Patients is a virtue. " is kind of the rule. Most people don't realize that on the other side of their computer screen the modders are real people with real stuff going on in their lives as well and like most people they know that there just isn't enough hours in a day to do what they love like modding. I've been here a little over a year and have started to figure out the GECK for myself and one day hope to be a decent modder myself and my motto about modding is this " If life gives you lemons . . . Make a mod about lemons. ".

[dante9494]

When you request a mod you have to realize this forum is more of a mod ideas forum.

 

Truth be told the chance of your mod being made is beyond extremely slim as most mod makers are busy with their own projects and ideas are a dime a dozen with every one thinking theirs is "teh bestest idea eveh!".

 

If you really want your idea come to life you are best to learn how to mod yourself.

Check out the nexus wiki and Google for many very helpful guides to get you started.

 

Things to keep in mind when starting to make mods for the first time.

 

• Start small, do not jump into wanting to make a complete overhaul with no mod making experience.

 

• Realize it can be time consuming but rewarding in the end.

 

• You do not have to release every small mod and change you make, a lot of the time they have probably already been done.

 

• Mod for yourself, not for fame and glory but because you want something and will hopefully enjoy it.

 

 

In regards to mod teams, if you are thinking about doing a large project and attempting to recruit others to help.

 

• Do some work beforehand beyond just the idea/concept, people want to see you can actually contribute to a team you are trying to form.

          If you just come with an idea and no real preexisting work done the only people you will get wanting to help will just have ideas and no experience to.

 

• Realize that it is very common for teams that do get off the ground to not go anywhere either, be it differences of opinions and direction to disliking other members.

 

 

Good luck and have fun modding is the main thing though!

 

 

BLEEPITY BLEEPING BLEEP RITE MICALOV! i for one have had enuf of ppl whining about their crap not happening or wht-the-f****-evr i am not capable to do my own mods but i appreciate what the modders put out there (love you micalov btw) and i enjoy what ppl make and dont harrase them about things i dont approve of i just move on to other more... amenable mods.

[FrigidMaster]

So... Why not make a small mod compilation