Crime and Punishment Overhaul Mod

[Madrias]

This sounds actually rather interesting. Honestly, I've tried several different 'crime and punishment overhaul' type mods in the past, but... Well, none of them ever really seem to fit my style.

 

First, I've dealt with too many that try to do away with the whole "each hold is its own" thing. I agree that some should be linked (an example would be that if I massacred the town guard in an Imperially-Controlled Solitude, I'd expect other Imperial controlled areas to hate my guts, but I'd expect the Stormcloak controlled areas to be indifferent or possibly more polite.), but for the most part, I like the idea that if I've racked up a bounty in a hold, like in the Reach, I can go run off to the Rift and be just fine.

 

Second, my main problem is the lack of things to do once arrested in some of these mods. I've tried some from here and some from, well, that other site that has more... adult oriented content, and the problem is, sure, you're arrested and in jail, and in some, you're even punished, but apart from that, there's absolutely nothing to do. It just becomes a boring time-sink without an interactive questline going on, something logical. However, the time spent in prison also can't take too long, or the player will lose interest and start looking for ways out of it.

 

Thirdly, I seriously dislike the fact that all of the crimes in Skyrim have such piddly little fines behind them, and that's even comparing them to things in the same game world. Oh, you've butchered one of the City Guard and managed to survive. That'll be 1000 gold. Oh, you want to buy Breezehome? That's 5000 gold. On the flipside, some things make sense not to punish as expensively, but for the most part, the penalties aren't anywhere near enough, especially when you're in the late-game.

 

Finally, I love the idea of Trials and all that it means behind it. I'll get more into detail down below.

 

So, if you'll forgive (or possibly take inspiration from) my idea-dump, which is mostly in response to your original post, with ideas of my own added in. I also apologize for how long this is. I really shouldn't respond to posts with ideas when I'm tired, they tend to run on a bit, but if I tried this when I'm fully awake, I wouldn't have half of these ideas.

 

Reputation: I agree that the people of Skyrim should take notice of your actions. Biggest pet peeve of mine is that I can be the Holy Crusader of the Eight Divines or the darkest scum of Nirn this side of Sithis, and I'm treated exactly the same by everyone. Let's break it down a bit.

 

- Notoriety: If you commit crimes, people know about it. Specifically, the guards. Becoming notorious means that you're given less warning (in the case of trespassing) and the guards don't like you. In fact, they all want to see you in prison for a good long time. Become notorious enough, and you might end up framed and facing a Trial you won't win.

 

- Trials: As much as I love the idea of your Trial by Combat, I don't see it having the desired effect. Unless you hooked in through Death Alternative to prevent dying, or you write your own scripts to stop at a certain point of the player's health, this either leads to "I win the fight, so I'm free, and because of this, I'm gonna butcher everyone in this room" or being stuck in an infinite death loop. My thought would be to have a properly dishonest trial.

 

What do I mean by that?

 

Remember the Notoriety above, and what I said about guards, how the more notorious you are, the more they hate your guts? This works two ways. If this is your first crime, and it's not all that serious, the guards won't go out of their way to see you in jail, and you'll deal with more or less a random jury of your peers. If you're well liked by the Jarl because you hunt bandits and dragons as a hobby, and you're their Thane, your jury might have many of your friends and acquaintances in it - after all, if you're not sitting in jail, you might go out and hunt down that pesky dragon as a favor for getting off the hook. However, if you're a notorious criminal, your jury might be full of people you've wronged in some way or another, sealing your fate.

 

The end results of your Trial can end a variety of different ways:

• Free and Clear. No bounty, no notoriety gain, no fines. Pretty much guaranteed with friends, a possible outcome of a random jury, and never given out by those you've hurt.
• Pay a Price. Basically equivalent to Skyrim's current bounty amounts. A light smack on the wrist, equivalent to paying for your stolen goods. Obviously, some notoriety will be gained from this.
• Public Punishment - Mild. Basically, being stuck in the stockade and pelted with produce. Used for things like being busted for your first time thieving. Only available with low notoriety. Ends with a very small rise in notoriety - People find it amusing that even the Mighty Dragonborn can be humbled by a cabbage to the face.
• Public Punishment - Severe. Equivalent to being whipped in town square. Used if your notoriety is too high for the mild version, but the same things apply, except that your notoriety rises more significantly - Obviously, everyone knows you're a criminal now, and you've got the marks to prove it.
• Jailed. Fairly severe, more so than the public punishments. Preferably, I'd like to see it used alongside public punishment (the equivalent of a week in jail, then taken into town square and whipped publicly before being let go.) but for lighter crimes, it could be used alone. Notoriety will rise significantly for this. Also used whenever you can't afford to pay your fines.
• Banishment. A severe penalty for severe crimes. Reserved for crimes like murder, massive thefts, etc. Doesn't last too long (I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of 10-30 in game days, preferably adjustable) but even entering the hold gets you a trespass warning. Notoriety, even at the minimum it could have been, should be nearly maxed out - If you've been Banished, you are undoubtedly a serious criminal.

Now, why do I mention all of those? Because variety makes crime and punishment less boring. If you know you're just going to jail if you can't pay your fine, you aren't going to try stealing from the strongboxes in the market stalls. However, if you feel bold and you think you've done enough good to offset the bad you're about to do, and you think you could beat the system in the trial, then you might go for it.

 

- Shopkeepers: If you steal from the shops and you're caught doing it, you should be punished for it, and that comes in the form of increased vigilance as well as throwing you out of more civilized shops after enough thieving. Barring you from shops should technically be easy, at least in theory, by forcing a trespass when you try to go into their shops. Between the extreme vigilance at that point and the trespass, and some notoriety, you should be arrested fairly quick after trying.

 

- The Prison System: Vanilla Skyrim's jails suck. Whatever cell you're put into always has an escape route. You're never celled up with another inmate. Sleeping passes the time instantly. There's nothing to do in Jail. And as such, there's never a reason to use it, unless you really can't pay your fine.

 

I'd love to see things turned up at least to 7 or 9. I don't need 11, but it'd be cool. Notoriety could come in handy here, and I'll detail it a bit:

• Notorious prisoners get more cell checks.
• Guards hate prisoners who think their above the law. Expect to get bloodied up a few times.
• Fellow Inmates will treat you differently based on your Notoriety with the Guards, and a separate Notoriety with the Inmates (more on this later!)
• Notorious prisoners get a more thorough search. Don't plan on having that lockpick you've clearly hidden up your nose. (there should, at least in most cells, be at least one article of furniture you can pull a bit of metal out of. Allow only one per item for each time you're in prison, and allow you to make one of two contraband items with it, and they're exclusive: the Shiv, or the Lockpick.)
• The more you're in prison, the crappier your cell will be. (Less furniture, more lights to prevent sneaking, more frequent cell checks, more frequent beatings, less escape routes. This ends with you being in a cell in the Torture Chamber (I swear, I'll get to it soon enough), under constant watch unless you're being punished.)

Okay, so we get it, Guard Notoriety means things suck for you. But, there's a way to make the guards hate you less: Rat out your fellow Inmates. Yep, you heard that right. Your best buddy in the prison just pulled a nail out of your bed, so you can't sleep at night because your bed just fell apart, and he made contraband with it? Inform a guard at meal time (I'll get to that in a bit with Prison Schedules, I promise) and they'll check the cell and your cellmate. Find some contraband, and your Guard Notoriety drops. Find nothing, and your Guard Notoriety rises. (You're a troublemaker and a time waster, and the higher your notoriety, the less likely they'll listen, and the more likely that they'll punch you in the mouth.)

 

However, doing that won't make you any friends with the Inmates, and your Prison Notoriety goes up. And we all know the old prison saying, "Snitches get stitches." Well, that's true in Skyrim, too. Rat out an inmate, and you might just find yourself in some serious hurt. On the flipside, take the fall for something you didn't do, and your Prison Notoriety goes the other way, making you some friends among the inmates. Injure or kill a guard, and the Inmates like you more. If you're put in for something serious (like going Werewolf and butchering the entire town of Riverwood), then you're more likely to be left alone.

 

Now, I mentioned a Torture Chamber above, didn't I? This terrifying little room contains everything needed to make your life horrible. This room should be reserved for only a few occasions, but should never be entirely unoccupied:

• First use of the Torture Chamber, when the Player isn't notorious enough for it, or their crimes weren't bad enough for it, and they weren't captured by an Enemy Soldier, should be for the purposes of immersion. The player should hear screams from that general direction at (pseudo)random times of day/night. If the player visits the prisons when they're not arrested, they should be able to walk into the torture chamber and actually see a prisoner either in the cell, or being tortured.
• Second use of the torture chamber should be when the player's crimes or notoriety force the situation. It should be used as a method of punishment, and as a result, should apply some hefty debuffs after experiencing the horrors within (damaged health/stamina/magicka, regenerations either slowed or stopped, depending on the tortures used. I think there should be variety, if it's not too hard to do). Depending on the notoriety, the player will either be returned to their cell (big crimes, but not being a problem to the Guards), or locked in the cell in the torture chamber (A problem to the Guards).
• Third use of the Torture Chamber is when the player has been captured by an enemy soldier (Legion soldier captured by a Stormcloak, or Stormcloak captured by the Legion, or Talos Worshipper captured by Thalmor) and they're being tortured for information. There should always be options in between each session of torture: Give up the Information, Stay Silent, Act Defiant, and Pray to the Divines. Giving Up stops the torture immediately, but has a chance of applying a debuff - Weak Willed - making it harder to resist in the future. This should be able to be cured, but should require something difficult to do in order to clear it. Staying Silent gets you a basic bit of torture, applying standard torture debuffs. Acting Defiant enrages the torturer, getting the usual torture debuffs with much stronger values (example, if your health is normally reduced by 50% and regeneration slowed by 75%, you may find acting defiant ends up reducing your total health by 75% and stopping your regeneration entirely). Praying to the Divines should be the same as staying silent, except with a very small chance (like 1%) of the Divines listening and granting you their Blessing, removing all debuffs and shielding you from damage for that round.
• So, what happens if you give up in torture for information? Well, while your torture stops immediately, and you're just thrown in a cell (after all, you are a very treacherous traitor) to serve the rest of your sentence (probably somewhere around that 10-30 day adjustable mark mentioned above somewhere)... Well, it's very likely that a severe upset will happen based on your information. If you're a Legion soldier who gave up, expect a minor Stormcloak victory (not visible, but heard about), a letter from your superior officer (General Tullius) admonishing you for giving up vital information about the war effort, and that it's your fault that the Stormcloaks massacred this small outpost in whateversville.
• And what about if you're devout to the Divines? Well, if you pray at enough shrines, or at one or another in particular enough, you might be able to raise your chance at Divine Salvation by a little bit. And if you're really devout? You might find yourself teleported to the nearest temple of that Divine, fully healed. You'll be without your gear, but you're not being set on fire anymore, either.

Okay, now seriously, let's talk Prison Schedules. I mentioned it above, but the Torture Chamber got away from me.

 

I think the idea of a rigid schedule makes sense. This is just a rough idea, but it could be worked into something, I think.

 

• 6 AM: Wake Up Call. All inmates are required to be up at this time. Setting your sleep beyond 6 will lead to punishment for defiance. You'll be expected to change out of your sleep outfit and into something suitable for the day's tasks. (You know the drill by now, I'll get to that later.)
• 7 AM: Breakfast. This should be set up such that those of us with needs mods can survive. I don't know all of the mods that do things for eating and drinking to survive, so my best guess would be to have a vendor and give every prisoner a limited amount of gold to spend on food and drink. Confiscate the gold before we leave so we're not using it to do nefarious things behind the guards' backs.
• 8 - 11 AM: Work. Remember the outfits I'd mentioned? I'll request they stay vanilla, but giving us Ragged Robes, Ragged Trousers, Roughspun Tunic, and Blacksmith's Apron would give 4 basic outfits. Setting your mod to tell what one we're wearing and assigning them to a job would be a rather powerful system to control the player character's ability to act freely. I'll mention the clothing under the schedule later.
• 12 PM: Lunch. Basically Breakfast all over again. Mentioning it here because I didn't want to bloat up breakfast, but the meal times should be all the inmates (Except quest-related vanilla NPC's) in the rooms at once. Lots of guards should be around in case any crap starts.
• 1 - 4 PM: Work / Punishments. Basically, this should be either a repeat of the first work (if you've not riled up the guards yet) or a punishment for defiance. This could be anything from a beating/whipping (health damage, no regen slowing), a stay in the Torture Chamber (apply Torture Debuffs), or going to See the Warden (More severe punishments can be applied by them).
• 5 PM: Dinner. Same as the usual chaos at meal times.
• 6 - 8 PM: Social Time. This'll allow for all the illicit trades and such to happen in the prison. This also allows your fellow Inmates to interact with you.
• 9 PM: Bed. It is expected that you'll sleep at this time, although some may choose to do other activities at their own risk.

Okay, so let's talk about the outfits and what they'd do.

• Ragged Trousers should be your sleeping attire. It should be considered as an act of defiance to be wearing this out of your cell at any time, except maybe during Social Time.
• Roughspun Tunic is required if you've been assigned cleaning duty. Cleaning should be some interactive piles of dirt, where you activate it, you go into the sweeping idle, and time passes for an hour. Provide plenty of dirt piles such that it'd be impossible to clean all of them in one day. Make them respawn often, such that getting cleaning duty is never a simple "I have nothing to clean" shift.
• Blacksmith's Apron is required if you've been assigned to a shift at the smelter. As with the cleaning duty, it should just be an interactive "activate the smelter to work" type setup, where time passes until the end of your shift.
• Ragged Robes is for a shift at the cooking pot. Similarly to the Smelter, it should be an interactive "activate Cooking Pot" to pass the time.

But, this wouldn't be prison if the inmates couldn't ask for favors.

• Your fellow inmates read the same schedule you have. Thereby, you'll always have the option to complete the favor you've been asked, because you'll be doing the job you'll need to be at in order to get the supplies you'll need.
• If you've been assigned Cleaning Duty, activating the spare broom will allow you to break the broom handle. Best not to get caught doing this. Doing so will gain you a weapon: a Broken Handle. Some inmates will ask for a weapon, and this will comfortably fit the bill.
• If you've been assigned a shift in the Smeltery, you have a couple options. You can pocket some Bits of Scrap Metal, useful for making lockpicks and shivs, or, you can break the shovel to gain a broken handle. Some inmates will ask for a weapon, but others would rather have a lockpick, or they'd prefer to have just the bits of scrap metal.
• If you've been assigned a shift at the cooking pot, you can steal valuable cooking ingredients (garlic and wine come to mind), brew a bottle of Foul Brew alcohol, or poison someone's food. Some inmates want you to get them some alcohol, and they're not too picky. Some inmates want to get revenge, but need a little help. Getting them the ingredient they need for their poison is the first step. Some inmates want to see someone dealt with permanently, and will give you a poison to put in someone's food.

Oh, but there's a flipside to this. If you sufficiently raise your Prison Notoriety to get on the Guards' good side, you can wear a guard uniform as your assigned job (the only one you can accept at that point) and be assigned randomly to patrolling a hallway or assisting the torturer.

 

But, there's a downside to being on the Guards' good side: you aren't the only one in this prison, and your actions against the other Inmates has consequences. Expect to be attacked at meal times with shivs and broken handles. Don't be surprised if a guard finds a dozen lockpicks in your cell. Prepare to be poisoned at meal times.

 

Okay, so time to move on from the Prison System and to Crime in general.

 

- Crimes: Skyrim's default crimes are kinda crappy. The values are way out of balance and there's not enough variety. Let's fix that.

 

My values are going to be very high, but I'd rather see people in jail because they couldn't pay their fines than to watch every big-shot level 81 Dovahkiin wander around butchering entire cities and paying it off.

• Let's start big by fixing murder. 1000 gold? Ha. You wish. Let's see what people think of 30,000 gold. Dark Brotherhood, prepare to be afraid. You don't want to get caught assassinating random people anymore. And the fact that poisoning the Emperor was only 1500 gold... Let's try 45,000 on for a change, and max out your notoriety the instant he croaks it.
• Lycanthropy, Vampirism, or Crimes against Nature (cannibalism)... Honestly, I think 10,000 gold sounds good here. Not quite as bold as Murder itself, but... You are a creature that could technically do it, and getting found out should max out your notoriety.
• Talos Worship. Stormcloaks might let you off easy if you're wearing your amulet openly. The Legion will not, and the Thalmor will haul you off for 'questioning'. Not sure what the bounty should be, though...
• Treason. Jail time for questioning.
• Slavery. I'm thinking 25,000 gold. Obviously, not a big deal on Solstheim. Possibly not a big deal if you pull a Stormcloak Victory, but only if committed against Elven races.
• Banditry. 30x the worth of your stolen goods, plus 10,000 gold, plus any bounties occurring from the murdering of bounty hunters sent to kill or capture you. On the plus side... You do get to have a cool bounty letter with your name on it.
• Possessing or Using Skooma should be about 5,000 gold. Something easily swept under the rug for most mid-to-late-game players. However, it should hinge around there being fewer than 6 bottles of Skooma in your inventory (or whatever the cutoff point is by default for making a droppable stack).
• Making or Selling Skooma should be 20,000 gold, plus, for every skooma bottle you're carrying, an additional 1000 gold.
• Assault with your fists: 1000 gold.
• Assault with a weapon: 25,000 gold.
• Gambling - Fights: I don't really think that should be a crime. Brawls are part of Skyrim.
• Gambling - Drinking Contests: I'm thinking 500 gold. It's, for the most part, something petty.
• Gambling - Horse Races: I think this should also be pretty low. Gambling would be something new in Skyrim, though, hence trying to encourage doing so.
• Framed for a Crime - Should be based on your Notoriety. Always results in a trial.
• Bribery - 8,000 gold, unless you bribe your way out of it again.
• Theft. Pretty much as you said, just up the penalty because at this point, I could go steal everything in Skyrim openly, go fence about an eighth of it to cover basic costs, and pay off my bounty.
• Killing domesticated animals: Let's wind this up to 3000 gold. Yep, shooting that chicken in Riverwood just got even more serious.
• Destruction of Property (That stupid Dwemer Urn comes to mind, as well as Fus Ro Dah anywhere civilized that sends stuff flying) 1000 gold. Probably needs to be more, but I think it'd be hilarious the first time someone sees fit to prove they're Dragonborn to Avenicci by sending the contents of the nearby table flying.
• Malicious Wounding: Basically, you know how assaults on animals that don't end in death caused a bounty? This is what I'm terming it as, because while the domesticated animals are property, it needs to be more severe. 1500 gold. And it should count if you shoot the cow being given to the Giants.
• Pickpocketing - Getting caught should be as much as if you'd actually stolen that item.
• Lockpicking - 7500 gold sounds about right for that.
• Trespassing - 1000 gold. They really don't want people doing this anymore.
• Public Drunkenness - No gold penalty, but you get to spend the next two days in prison sobering up.
• Disturbing the Jarl's Peace. Let's make this a nice catch-all for everything we can think of that doesn't fit the above, including shouting after the guards have told you to knock it off. 1000 gold and a day in a cell.
• Failing to show up for Jury Duty. Three days in a cell. Let's give people who own every property in Skyrim something to worry about.

Oh, and because I introduced that last concept, I should flesh it out.

 

- Jury Duty. As a property-owning citizen in a hold, it is expected that once in a while (some four or five in game months) you may be required to show up and participate in a trial. Failure to show up will earn you some time in jail. Showing up will get you a tiny amount of pay barely sufficient to cover travel expenses from any of the major carriage-to-carriage holds. Enjoy getting this letter when you're wandering around Solstheim.

 

And one last idea before I call this post way-too-long-and-only-getting-longer:

Please, whatever you do, make sure we get to see the whole crime->trial->prison->punishment system working, even when we're not the center of attention. I'd love to be able to deal with wandering into the prison and paying the guards my 100 gold to legally beat up a prisoner with my bare hands. Watching a trial unfold between two randomly generated NPC's and a jury of several NPC's deciding someone's fate could be a good break between dragon fights, bandit busting, and unloading my trash onto every NPC I can who has gold. Hurling rotten produce at the latest prisoner stuck in the stocks while I'm in the market anyway would be a pleasant break from fighting vampires. And, occasionally seeing a bandit up for public execution would make going to Solitude worth it.

[Slade37]

I personally love the ideas!

[Kazuya482]

Just one question. Public execution/beheading(s)?

[Madrias]

Just one question. Public execution/beheading(s)?

Personally, I'd love to see this for a bounty-hunter playthrough. Seeing the bandits you bring in get punished would be perfect. It'd both add life to the world (Ironically, by adding death to the world at the same time), and add a sense of productivity. Walking into Solitude and seeing the bandits you brought in a few days ago are now standing in a row, each being executed one after another, I think it'd add a reason to take bandits back alive. Even better if you get paid more for bringing bandits in alive, rather than outright killing them.

 

For the player, though, I personally think it's foolish. Sure, it's very realistic, that if you ran around and murdered entire villages, you should be killed, but it just sends you to the "Load a Save, or Start a New Game" screen. Which, I suppose if you wanted to kill off a character and start a new game, that would be a fitting way to go, but I think I can speak for the majority that reloading your last known good save is a bit boring. Plus, if player execution was a thing, and it couldn't be turned off, I'm sure a lot of people would skip the mod, even if it had features they really liked.

 

Then again, that's an idea. Have player execution disabled by default, and a warning when turning it on that your player could be killed as a result of their actions. Also that if you're playing with Death Alternative, it's probably not going to be compatible.

[Slade37]

You know, a thought just occurred to me. In the main quest line the character goes to sovengard, so he has already walked among the dead. What if execution didn't have to be the end? What if the character were sent to sovengard, and maybe there he would go on a quest to return to the land of the living?

[drewsbrew]

Whew, OK, sorry about the delayed response but there was a lot to read and I'm spread kind thin right now; working on video projects for two YouTube channels, drawing concept art for my own purposes and concept (exibit A, exibit B, with more on the way) art for the Beyond Skyrim (Cyrodiil) team, learning how to script, learning more about 3D modeling, and about a half dozen other things... anyway...

 

Madrias,

If you haven't already, and you're willing to do so, I'd like for you to check out my post about the reputation system (also in my signature). I've never designed anything like this before, so I'd like as much input as I can get. I think a lot of your ideas you talked about are already going to be a part of the system I outlined.

 

As far as your concerns about the trials by combat not having the desired effect, I agree completely. In addition, I planed on having each hold have its own champion, and if the player managed to kill the champion once, who would be there for to represent the hold in all future trials by combat? I would have to create lots of 'champion' NPCs and all things considered I think it would be best to have just one for each hold. Also, lots of people seem to think Ulfric was wrong for challenging King Torreg, but some insist it is 'the old way' and 'tradition', etc. So in a sense it might not make sense to have trials by combat that are actually to the death... having said that it might be interesting to have that change based on who controls the hold; the Stormcloaks, or the Imperials... though if I do that then I am back to the same problem of having to create a lot of 'champion NPCs', and I also want to make Ulfric himself the champion of Windhelm... having that TBC go to the death is problematic for a number of reasons. Anyway, on the whole, still thinking about this one. What I'll probably do is have this be a togleable option in the MCM menu o something.

I'll add that for this (and for public executions) I may use Slade37's Sovengard idea...

 

I also agree that Skyrim jails do suck, and would like to redesign all of them to varying extents; fairly minor tweaks and adjustments to some, with total overhauls to others.

 

I also love a lot of your ideas, i.e.; the more severe form of public punishment, a temporary banishment from holds in extreme cases, notoriety having an impact on prison life as well, and having a torture chamber added to jails... and being tortured when captured by enemy soldiers! I will definitely use those, and don't worry, there will absolutely be other NPCs committing crimes/going through the system besides just the player... in fact...

 

*spoiler start*

When the player enters Whiterun for the first time, I want them to immedietly see NPCs in a stockade (probably outside the guard barracks) being pelted by produce and being able to join in.

*spoiler end*

 

I like the idea of work in prison, more specifically having different jobs in prison, which allows you to do different favors for different people— however it may be immersion breaking in the sense that when you go to jail in Markarth you are told ‘some prisons may allow you to sit around, but here you work’.

-love the ‘foul brew alcohol’ idea, will definitely use it.

 

Some crimes (like murder, or attempting to assassinate the Emperor) probably won’t have an option to simply pay a fine at all, unless you are a thane or something, having said that though I do like your numbers that you came up with for the fines.

 

 

Just one question. Public execution/beheading(s)?

 

Yes.. there will certainly be more NPCs who will be executed, and I think I will have this as an MCM option for the player. If you choose not to be subject to public executions yourself, there will be a built in reason for why that is so as to not break immersion... for example; because you are Dragonborn and saving the world a hold will not execute you when they otherwise would if it were anyone else, which is one area where I think Madrias's idea of having a banishment period comes in nicely.

 

 

You know, a thought just occurred to me. In the main quest line the character goes to sovengard, so he has already walked among the dead. What if execution didn't have to be the end? What if the character were sent to sovengard, and maybe there he would go on a quest to return to the land of the living?

 

As I said earlier, I really like this idea, not sure if I'll use it or not but I will definitely think about it.

Edited June 20, 2016 by drewsbrew

[Madrias]

...jail in Markarth you are told ‘some prisons may allow you to sit around, but here you work’...

 

I don't see it as lore-breaking. I don't think it was ever exclusively mentioned as Skyrim's prisons, and if I remember Oblivion well enough, all you did was sit around in prison. Could read it as a reference, then, to the fact that in Skyrim's prisons, you'll work, while in Cyrodiil, you sit and grow old.

 

And yes, I'm working on your requested look at the reputation system, and unfortunately, despite my best efforts at keeping it short, it's gotten lengthy again. Suffice it to say, I've got ideas, but the core seems good so far.

[Slade37]

As for the markarth reference.... I personally always saw the silverblood family as prideful anyways. That remark could just be written off as them thinking their better than all the other prisons around the world. There could be a small storyline added to that as a sort of competition where the prisoner suffers a great deal more at markarth because their prime motive would be to break the prisoners spirits with demands that cant be fulfilled, and severe punishments for falling short. Also I had a second idea (small idea) but I want to say all the same. What if you removed the option to use the bed, or to pass time by while in Jail. One thing that bothers me about skyrim prison is that you can simply pass the time by to speed along the process, but in the new system, you would only be able to rest to pass time by if the guard allows it, and only to the duration that the guard allows. Just a couple ideas I wanted to throw out there. ..... Or, you could keep the sleep ability, but if you attempted to, and they didn't allow it, you buy yourself additional prison time, and more punishments.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Slade37

[drewsbrew]

Here is a random thought... what if doing jobs in prison was optional, something you could do to lessen your sentence...

 

And a second idea, what if it was something that the guards had to trust you enough to let you do in the first place, in other words you have to build up your reputation as a 'good inmate' trying to reform themselves...

[Madrias]

That... That is a really great idea, Drew. (You don't mind if I call you that, right?)

 

There was a mod I tried forever ago, can't remember the name of it, but it basically made all the prisons irrelevant, sent you to one main prison like the old Oblivion system, but you had to work to get out faster. Thought it was decent, but always wished it'd have left the default prisons alone and used them instead of making them just something to look at when you needed to do quests.

 

So, as you said, the idea of needing to build up your trust with the guards, just to be able to get these jobs, just to shave a bit of time off of your sentence, I think that'd be awesome. It'd mean that prison isn't just working, it's full interactions.

 

Essentially, trying to get on the guards' good side would just about put you on the bad side of some of the Inmates, but if you managed, your stay would be much faster.

 

And I just had an idea for that, a little risk-versus-reward:

 

Guards forget prisoners each time you leave (your trust is reset each time, thereby when returning, you have to go through this all over again), but inmates never forget. Why? Because they've got nothing better to do than remember that the Dragonborn was a slime-ball who cozied up to the guards to get out a couple weeks early. So the next time you return to that prison, the guards don't care that you were the ideal inmate the last time, as it's in the past and you're here, now, all over again. The inmates, however, remember how you basically told them, "No, I don't want to help you make skooma in the back of your cell," and "Are you crazy?! No, I'm not going to bring you a weapon," and they'll use that as an excuse to make your second (or third, or fourth, etc...) time to prison just that little bit worse, until you're nearly forced to do things to get on their good side because of some random event ideas I just thought of.

 

Oh, Dagon, I'm doing it again...

 

Random Events:

 

We already know Skyrim supports these, I've played mods that I think can break you out of the sleep sequence a couple hours early, and if you're on a fixed sleep schedule, and you model some form of prison stamina multiplier where working requires stamina to keep doing a task, and it only regenerates when sleeping, being woken up is the worst thing that can happen.

 

So, a few ideas on what could be done as a forced wake-up:

- Shanked. Your reputation with the inmate population has fallen so dramatically that the only course of action they can think of is to try to kill you. Obviously, that inmate fails at killing you, and the guards react (they have to, a dead prisoner means paperwork and a loss of revenue for the prison.) by punishing both you and the inmate. (Takes two to tango, and obviously you did something to offend this guy, so you're getting punished.) Both of you get solitary confinement, which means your stay has gotten longer (a prison punishment for breaking rules) and you're unable to work it off.

- Midnight Skooma Deal. Your cellmate has just offered to trade you Skooma for (insert object you're carrying). Accept, the trade is completed, and you're free to go back to bed. Decline, and your reputation as a nasty goody-two-shoes goes up.

- Drugged. You refused a skooma deal one time too many, so your cellmate just made sure you're three-sails-to-the-wind with skooma, then called the guard.

 

Obviously, these events shouldn't happen so often that you can't sleep, and should only be triggered by low-inmate-reputation, starting with skooma deals and progressing through drugging to being shanked. The idea being that the skooma deal would be an early warning, and an easy way to settle your inmate reputation back to where it should be over time.

 

And because of that, I got another idea, making Skooma and Foul Brew useful to the player as more than trading commodities: They help you sleep, provided you don't over-do it. Skooma is highly addictive, but works very strongly, and might be used in the event that Foul Brew doesn't have the effect anymore. Alcohol, of any sort, helps you get to sleep, provided you haven't become dependant on it to sleep.

 

And yes, I said 'of any sort,' thereby implying that the guards may have mead or wine available if you're willing to steal it.