RedRabe Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Is this really a Bug? I maybe wrong but after reading about these bugs, the new settlement functions, and the new "AI" this is what I have deduced: 1. There is a new navmesh system especially within settlement building. Navmeshes are "fluid" and adjust to new objects placed within them. It isn't perfect, I still get NPCs walking in place sometimes. Modded items do not receive navmesh updates because we do not have the GECK yet so NPCs tend to ignore them. 2. There are tons of animation "nodes" that enable NPCs to interact with the world environment. This makes them seem more alive and intelligent. These 2 things (maybe more) combined I believe why many world objects are not selectable in console. To delete/disable an object could cause navmesh/animation corruption within a cell. I am beginning to believe this "bug" is not a bug at all but a form of game engine "security". If the engine detects an "unauthorized" change has been made to a cell it resets it to prevent cell corruption and/or CTD. The devs added a lot of new features to this version and with more features things become more complicated. The more complicated things are the easier it is to screw it up. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdunlap Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 First I'll say this. Well thought out. I don't happen to agree but its still very well reasoned. The navmesh. I personally think the NPC's ignoring some modded items is more likely that the NPC's instead of each having a list of idles there are some invisible furniture things that idle behavior is built on. As an example the cat at Abernathy. Using one of the mods I am involved in I can scrap Abernathy down to bare metal. The cat however still idles around the former porch area as if it was still there. He goes to where his bowl was and when he leans down to eat from missing bowl from missing porch he floats up to old porch level while eating and when done floats down. I have also seen him lay down on the missing porch. in mid air. So I personally think we are just missing data on the animation furniture and how its used instead of navmesh issues. I have spent loads of time in xedit looking at the world and persistent objects and I don't see any way that the scrapping is corrupting a cell. It may just be that certain things are "Expected" and when not found the engine calls "reset" to pull new/build new for a one off attempt to clear the issue. If it was Caused by the scrapping directly then the cell would go into a looping/constant "reset" and I would then expect a CTD. I think that due to all the new stuff Bethesda did in the 64 bit version of the engine this is just a simple one step method added to clear up any strange unexpected issue in the Settlement cells. These cells are handled differently by the engine specifically *(they do not clean up dead bodies etc...) and I feel as if we are seeing an error handler Bethesda put in place in anticipation of Modding. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3507349User Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Actually, it is at least partially a bug, and it's been found that it's related to containers in settlements. Some vanilla containers in settlements have the 'respawn' flag set on them, and mods that alter settlements can trigger it. the reasons why posted above make sense. The solution was to replace all vanilla containers with dupes that don't have the flag set..problem solved as far as items go. I can't speak to the navmesh points and so forth. This mod ( http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/6772/? ) gives a pretty decent explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdunlap Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Yes,That mod is one of 4 that Lapdragon and I do together. :) He is the Mod God I am the Padawan Learner. I am a Very old school (circa COBOL/Fortran 77) programmer, Lapdragon is guiding me into some mod building and we have done some extremely exhaustive work on the cell reset issue and all its funky flavors. :P One question we have not answered to satisfaction: Why do some settlement cells never raise the reset bug even though our large mod "Scrappable_Commonwealth" touches them the same as all the other stuff? This is what has led me personally to begin to suspect we are seeing a design not a flaw from the engine. In the mod you point out above what we basically do is clone the containers in a settlement and remove the "Respawn" flag from its keywords. They still spawn with appropriate stuff they just don't clear and reset. If the process we use were directly at fault I "think" we would see a much stronger reaction from the engine. Do note that I am using "Think" and "Feel" a lot in this discourse. Until we have the tools designed by Bethesda to work with we will be in the dark about a lot of things. XEdit is a Super tool, but they specifically tell us to use caution due to some data types they will not have a handle on until GECK or its equivalent releases. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3507349User Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, y'know....since radroaches use power armor now I suppose ANYTHING is possible... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAXCfIzvNU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdunlap Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well, y'know....since radroaches use power armor now I suppose ANYTHING is possible... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAXCfIzvNUThats GREAT!I have had that happen and tried to tell a buddy about it. I am pretty sure he thought I was off in the head. :) It may be a bug *(pun intended) but I like to think the rad roaches are just evolving to the environment. I mean hey, if there is going to be Power Armor on every corner whats a roach to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wenderer Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 I poked around this issue and PA resets with one mod (not mine), and looks like i found some dirty way to bend over this problem. However it's not well tested yet, i just loaded game and see that my PA that always reset self not resetted this time. Solution if pretty easy to do: just turn esp plugin into esm. Yep, that it, set flag in esp header to ESM in FO4Edit, save, and then rename file from *.esp to *.esm. maybe it will help someone until Beth's will fix it at lower level (exe or dll). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slash0mega Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 t First I'll say this. Well thought out. I don't happen to agree but its still very well reasoned. The navmesh. I personally think the NPC's ignoring some modded items is more likely that the NPC's instead of each having a list of idles there are some invisible furniture things that idle behavior is built on. As an example the cat at Abernathy. Using one of the mods I am involved in I can scrap Abernathy down to bare metal. The cat however still idles around the former porch area as if it was still there. He goes to where his bowl was and when he leans down to eat from missing bowl from missing porch he floats up to old porch level while eating and when done floats down. I have also seen him lay down on the missing porch. in mid air. So I personally think we are just missing data on the animation furniture and how its used instead of navmesh issues. I have spent loads of time in xedit looking at the world and persistent objects and I don't see any way that the scrapping is corrupting a cell. It may just be that certain things are "Expected" and when not found the engine calls "reset" to pull new/build new for a one off attempt to clear the issue. If it was Caused by the scrapping directly then the cell would go into a looping/constant "reset" and I would then expect a CTD. I think that due to all the new stuff Bethesda did in the 64 bit version of the engine this is just a simple one step method added to clear up any strange unexpected issue in the Settlement cells. These cells are handled differently by the engine specifically *(they do not clean up dead bodies etc...) and I feel as if we are seeing an error handler Bethesda put in place in anticipation of Modding. Robertthat... might acually be because the pernament navmesh was left behind.... you where never ment to scrap the house, so why set up the navmesh to go away when it is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamefever Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 Navmeshing is still done by hand in many cases rather than attached to the actual objects themselves. The case of the floating kitty is that there is in fact an animation marker there and you'd know that simply by opening the creation kit and having a look. Not sure why this stuff confuses people. Just takes time and tinkering really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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