Bethesda Engine Unreal or Unity? I'm not certain which way to point my normals.

[jeffglobal]

I'm learning Substance Designer/Painter and I'm wondering wtf does FO4 use? It becomes important because Substance supports PBR shading and normals both ways, so it would really suck to make stuff for the wrong engine. I don't think I need to bake a world location map if the game doesn't support it.

 

It looks like to me, that the Bethesda engine does not use PBR shading. Like they're lazy as fk to join the 21st century, but then again, I'm ignant.

 

Any, as technical as possible explanations such that I have to research wtf you just said would be appreciated if it points me in the right direction.

 

Should I learn Unity as well? Idk, the workflow looked like 3ds max/Maya, screw zbrush/Mudbox now because Substance Designer/Painter makes that unnecessary, iterate, Host Program. And my understanding is they don't use unity. How do I get to see the stuff I produce in an interface like Unity created?

 

I think since Unity can use procedural changes in real time to the texture maps, Bethesda is NOT using it...holy crap, that would make things awesome! but then again, I'm ignant.

 

 

ty for any help.

[Matth85]

Could you elaborate on your question? Just bake a standard normal map. At worst you need to invert the green channel. Don't mess around with anything else in regards to normals; I doubt it's supported by the engine.

 

The creation engine, which both Fallout 4 and Skyrim uses, is made from the gamebyro engine. Now, I won't pretend to know what Bethesda has done in Fallout 4; I am not modding it untill we get the tools(It seem absolutely pointless). I know they talked about PBR, and I know their engine does use PBR technology (Judging by the looks of the game).

 

First of: PBR is not a "EVERYONE DOES IT!" thing. It's new - very new. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and recall the year of 2011 as it being first discussed about, though I forgot where I read that, and it's being integrated into popular engines in 2014/2015. Anyways, Bethesda has/had to change their whole render structure to use PBR. This is not a simple switch: This is a fundamental change that requires a lot of work. It's easier to build an engine to support PBR, than it is to change an engine to use PBR. Especially with an engine with such old structure as the Gamebryo engine mokcup they use-

 

Neither Unity nor Unreal Engine is similar to Bethesdas engine. These are engines made to be engines, while Bethesda uses an engine made for their games. Learn one if you want; it won't make working with the CK/GECK any easier, sadly. I'd recommend looking into either, though. It's a good practice to get used to different engines. With that in mind, this is not the place to ask about Unity or Unreal Engine.

 

As a side note: Do yourself a favor and learn to texture without substance painter/design/Quixel Suite before using them. It might seem odd, but I am pulling my hairs out when the new breed of texture artist needs help, and they are useless beyond these tools. Sometimes you need to get to the bones of stuff and really understand it before you speed things up ;)

[lazyskeever]

I am by no means technically qualified to answer this, but it has been explained to me that PBR has been implemented into Fallout 4 in a rather half-baked manner by leveraging mostly the specular maps somehow.

[jeffglobal]

Could you elaborate on your question? Just bake a standard normal map. At worst you need to invert the green channel. Don't mess around with anything else in regards to normals; I doubt it's supported by the engine.

 

The creation engine, which both Fallout 4 and Skyrim uses, is made from the gamebyro engine. Now, I won't pretend to know what Bethesda has done in Fallout 4; I am not modding it untill we get the tools(It seem absolutely pointless). I know they talked about PBR, and I know their engine does use PBR technology (Judging by the looks of the game).

 

First of: PBR is not a "EVERYONE DOES IT!" thing. It's new - very new. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and recall the year of 2011 as it being first discussed about, though I forgot where I read that, and it's being integrated into popular engines in 2014/2015. Anyways, Bethesda has/had to change their whole render structure to use PBR. This is not a simple switch: This is a fundamental change that requires a lot of work. It's easier to build an engine to support PBR, than it is to change an engine to use PBR. Especially with an engine with such old structure as the Gamebryo engine mokcup they use-

 

Neither Unity nor Unreal Engine is similar to Bethesdas engine. These are engines made to be engines, while Bethesda uses an engine made for their games. Learn one if you want; it won't make working with the CK/GECK any easier, sadly. I'd recommend looking into either, though. It's a good practice to get used to different engines. With that in mind, this is not the place to ask about Unity or Unreal Engine.

 

As a side note: Do yourself a favor and learn to texture without substance painter/design/Quixel Suite before using them. It might seem odd, but I am pulling my hairs out when the new breed of texture artist needs help, and they are useless beyond these tools. Sometimes you need to get to the bones of stuff and really understand it before you speed things up :wink:

K, ty. I see the game engine on the net. Maybe I can get a better presentation of the red/green/blue specular map which is really a metallic/gloss, and specular map.

[jeffglobal]

As a side note: Do yourself a favor and learn to texture without substance painter/design/Quixel Suite before using them. It might seem odd, but I am pulling my hairs out when the new breed of texture artist needs help, and they are useless beyond these tools. Sometimes you need to get to the bones of stuff and really understand it before you speed things up :wink:

What do you suggest I use instead of those programs first? There's tangent space and world space normals. Disney uses one type and I think Bethesda uses tangent space.

[DUST2DEATH]

 

As a side note: Do yourself a favor and learn to texture without substance painter/design/Quixel Suite before using them. It might seem odd, but I am pulling my hairs out when the new breed of texture artist needs help, and they are useless beyond these tools. Sometimes you need to get to the bones of stuff and really understand it before you speed things up :wink:

What do you suggest I use instead of those programs first? There's tangent space and world space normals. Disney uses one type and I think Bethesda uses tangent space.

 

 

I just use photoshop myself...

[bben46]

The Bethesda engine used for FO4 is a revamped Gambryo engine - an ancient and creaky 19 year old engine that is long overdue for replacement. They renamed it the Creation Engine for Skyrim. But it is still really just a modified and updated Gambryo engine. This is the same basic engine used for Oblivion, Fallout 3 and many other games. It seems to be fairly modular as they add or cut parts to suit the game.

[Matth85]

I like to think of it as a very old car with lots of ducttape, and on the side it is written "BUGATTI". It's barely holding together, badly optimized and just s***. (Witcher 3 runs at constant 60fps at max. Fallout 4 varies between 30 and 60 at high, while looking worse, having worse LoD and it's smaller in size.)

 

Anyways. We use a tangent based normal maps for the majority of game engines I am aware of. Though knowing the difference between the types is not a bad idea!

Edited December 28, 2015 by Matth85

[jeffglobal]

I like to think of it as a very old car with lots of ducttape, and on the side it is written "BUGATTI". It's barely holding together, badly optimized and just s***. (Witcher 3 runs at constant 60fps at max. Fallout 4 varies between 30 and 60 at high, while looking worse, having worse LoD and it's smaller in size.)

 

Anyways. We use a tangent based normal maps for the majority of game engines I am aware of. Though knowing the difference between the types is not a bad idea!

Yeah, ty, just Substance Designer was default set to world space normals because of it's love for PBR texturing, which does seem nifty as I go thru way too many videos. I would be baking stuff completely useless for FO4 that way though.

 

Well Photoshop, Substance Design and Paint and 3ds max can produce for pretty much any engine, and relearning 3ds max can't be bad, unless Maya has become the standard now, idk. Maya seems easier to use watching...not using...it's amazing how much forgetting keyboard shortcuts bites you in the ass.

 

It's great to know PS4 and Xbox use Gamebryo. SO there's gonna be new hardware soon...good luck selling new equipment in this economy.