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Should I be using ba2s instead of loose files?


mm137

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Packing scripts into a .ba2 apparently breaks them.

 

This could be because of something else, but it's happened with at least one mod that I know of. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?

Packing scripts into BA2 files does not break them. As witnessed by the many folks using UFO4P with scripts in the archive that comes with it all working exactly as expected.

 

My question would be: Is your archive file names properly?

 

It needs to be of the format [Mod ESP name] - Main.ba2 for the game to recognize it at all. Any other naming convention will fail.

 

For textures, it has to be [Mod ESP name] - Textures.ba2.

 

Look at the official DLC files. Basically just mimic that.

 

As far as which works better, if the texture files are in the proper format for the game (not old Skyrim style DXT1 stuff etc) then packing them into an archive will provide a performance boost. How big of one depends on how much you're packing. There's optimization code in the engine that handles all that.

 

I don't know if the same applies to the "Main" archive though. It might, might not, but either way for purposes of distribution and installation by others, obviously a packed archive is easier to manage.

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I haven't been creating mods for that long, so I'm not sure how valuable my input would be considered (though I've been a developer for decades). However, I've never had any issues with my BA2 archives. I HAVE run across issues when a packed mod is not setup properly. Haven't pinned it down yet to a particular record type, and it DOES affect certain other packed mods that follow the bad one in the load order (which only partially makes sense to me). But, when I run across it, I can open the problem mod, find an error and fix it, repack it, then that mod and all packed mods afterward that had a similar record all work fine. I can also leave the error, extract the mod into loose files, and everything works fine (except of course whatever is broken in game due to the obvious error). I can only guess that the engine just doesn't have strict error handling for one of the methods and so it gives the appearance to some people that packed mods are problematic. Kind of like how interpreted languages that use variant variable types allow you to get away with some things you normally can't in strictly formed compiled languages.

Perhaps Arthmoor would have an idea HOW that can happen - I only know when it does, I can fix it as described. The next time I come across an example, I'll try to remember to come back and describe it.

Also, just my personal perspective, but I always offer both packed and loose downloads. Most people download and use the archive, but it provides an option if someone wants the loose file version. You could argue that some people are downloading the loose version because they don't fully understand something and need to figure out the real issue, and I would have no objection. But at the end of the day, just like you sometimes need a quick raw script to get a quick task done at work, even if not formatted properly, sometimes people just want to get in the game and play. If me offering both as an option helps in that regard, then why not? :smile:

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I've never heard of anything like that happening. At least not when the official tools are used. I suppose it's POSSIBLE it's a symptom of using 3rd party tools that aren't entirely right in their methods.

 

It won't have a thing to do with the record types in the ESP though because the archiving tools don't look at those.

 

Loose files simply create a support nightmare for everyone, why do that? :P

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All I can tell you is that it does. If it doesn't work, I change a record in someone's bad mod, and it works, then that's not really arguable against. That why I was asking about how error handling works when the engine reads packed archives vs. loose files. And I know it happens with the official tools as well because I've had it happen with one my own mods, records created from scratch in the CK, not even copying vanilla records.

 

I disagree about the support nightmare for various reasons, but don't really feel like arguing about it. Thanks for the feedback. :)

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I've been using packed .ba2s for my mod and for the most part they help cut down on the texture sizes, and therefor the download sizes. If nothing else, they make the mod more convenient to download.

 

However, I've had some odd reports of problems with the mod. it seems that about 1 in 1000 users will have an issue where the .ba2 files aren't being read by Fallout 4, so when they mouse over a new weapon in the pipboy, the mesh fails to load and the game crashes. None of my testers can reproduce this, nor can I. I put up a version of the mod with the files unpacked and every one of those users can use the mod fine.

 

It's very weird to say the least, but so far only a minor problem.

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In New Vegas at least packing LOD settings into a .bsa with any level of compression prevents them from being read by the game. Generalizing this case to Fallout 4, I wouldn't be surprised if only specific levels of compression ought to be used with certain resources, and indeed Bethesda's Archive2 tool does have different presets for textures and everything else.

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All I can tell you is that it does. If it doesn't work, I change a record in someone's bad mod, and it works, then that's not really arguable against. That why I was asking about how error handling works when the engine reads packed archives vs. loose files. And I know it happens with the official tools as well because I've had it happen with one my own mods, records created from scratch in the CK, not even copying vanilla records.

 

I disagree about the support nightmare for various reasons, but don't really feel like arguing about it. Thanks for the feedback. :smile:

This makes no sense to me. First, how do you know if someone's mod is "bad" and what specific records do you change to "fix" it? How do you modify those records? Is there something in particular you are looking for or do you just make a random edit in a random record? I've never heard of this kind of thing nor have I ever experienced it in my years of modding, so I'm rather suspect of this as a real issue. Plus the fact that you aren't describing an actual method for fixing the problem, but just stating generalities. Give us a specific example and that will be more credible. Edited by Reneer
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All I can tell you is that it does. If it doesn't work, I change a record in someone's bad mod, and it works, then that's not really arguable against. That why I was asking about how error handling works when the engine reads packed archives vs. loose files. And I know it happens with the official tools as well because I've had it happen with one my own mods, records created from scratch in the CK, not even copying vanilla records.

 

I disagree about the support nightmare for various reasons, but don't really feel like arguing about it. Thanks for the feedback. :smile:

I don't see how this could be true at all though. If it were the case that plugins influence the archives, there would be widespread reports about this cropping up everywhere. Especially on Bethesda.net uploads since you HAVE to use an archive to upload there.

 

Could you provide a link to a mod you know has this problem so that we can all have a look at it and see what the problem might be?

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As I mentioned very early on:

 

 

 

The next time I come across an example, I'll try to remember to come back and describe it.

 

I guess everyone missed that comment. I am constantly bouncing between testing others and my own mods and I just fix things and move on. I don't take official court records of every single thing I do, so I don't remember everything in enough detail to provide you a good enough example. Hence, why I said I would come back when I had my next example.

 

 

 

First, how do you know if someone's mod is "bad" and what specific records do you change to "fix" it? How do you modify those records? Is there something in particular you are looking for or do you just make a random edit in a random record?

 

Whether intended or not, this particular line of questioning is an absolute slap in the face to be honest. But, I'll roll with it... Leaving Skyrim out of the picture, I currently have between 180 and 240 active mods in FO4, with 134 plugins right now. I'm installing, removing, testing, creating, etc. every day pretty much. Knowing if someone's mod is bad is not rocket science. In fact, most people's mods have something wrong with them (my own included). It might be as simple as something being done less efficiently than it could be (just due to the person's knowledge level at the time) or a simple typo somewhere that isn't found out until you do one specific thing in the mod that 75% of people may not even do. You make mods, you learn from experience, improve upon them, etc. So, let's say I install someone's mod and it seems to be working fine, but I then run across a particular scenario. Instance naming doesn't work as stated on an author's page as I'm modifying an item at the workbench, so I know that's an issue with an INNR record, a keyword, etc., Or, I start modifying a weapon that someone has created, but one of the workbench modifications doesn't work right, so I know that's attached to something coded wrong in an OMOD or something referenced by or in the OMOD. Maybe someone has included texture changes in game and one of the textures doesn't work right. Could be a missing texture, could be an issue with the MSWP record, etc. Maybe something is supposed to glow but doesn't. I look at the BGSM files and NIFs and one particular one has a typo in it or they copied and pasted from vanilla and forgot to change a key string, so if you happen to get into one particular scenario in game, the glow map doesn't get applied onto the diffuse texture and you have no glow.

 

Do I really need to go on even more to answer your question? Or is that enough? Because I feel like I'm getting attacked for no reason, simply because... well, crap, I don't even know why (makes no sense to me at all). I mean, I highly respect both of you and have for a long time, but seriously?. I stopped by just to express my general preference towards BA2 files, but that I'd seen some odd behavior and then stated I would try to remember to come back when I had a specific example. And I stated that FROM THE VERY BEGINNING! I know you guys probably want to keep bad information from propagating (and I understand and appreciate that), but just because a lot of bad information is out there, doesn't mean you start off assuming the worst, which is how I feel like you're treating me. I don't feel like I communicated ineffectively - rather I feel like (forgive me if I misinterpreted this) you both either skimmed what I wrote OR read more into my comment than I intended, and immediately started trying to poke as many holes in my comments as you could instead of simply waiting for me to come back with an example. Or, God forbid there's something that seems like it wouldn't be possible now, but 6 months from now, lo and behold, there's this one situation that turns out to cause issues because of X reason that no one recognized or thought of.

 

But I digress... I need to get back to Reneer's interrogation... :)

 

Basically, if I find an error, I fix it for my own game, then I'll post a bug or send the author a PM to let them know (usually the latter as it lets them decide what "errors" they want to make public or not, especially since many errors are just accidental). I don't keep track of all this stuff. I even had it happen with my own mod once as I mentioned, but I don't remember all the details. I was doing something with the Chem station and wasn't paying attention to a detail somewhere (I believe I had copied a vanilla record that I didn't edit properly). Had nothing to do with the Recipe - that much I remember. And it had nothing to do with the object created by the recipe. It was something else. But when I went in game, it fubar'ed the chem station menu. Interestingly, it was a packed mod. I went back to the loose files while troubleshooting, but found that my item in the Chem station menu simply didn't show up now, but the other mods using packed archives now showed up fine (so a problem in my packed archive negatively impacted, somehow, other's packed mod archives that went away simply by me switching to loose files before I even fixed my issue). I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THAT HAPPENED THAT WAY! I ONLY KNOW IT DID! I wasn't drinking. Wasn't doing drugs. Had plenty of sleep. Kids weren't even at home to distract me. I saw what I saw whether it make sense or doesn't.

 

Maybe the fact that Beth split loose files into Main and Textures causes a unique scenario that we just don't understand yet. Maybe... oh good grief, never mind. I'm spending time on this when I could be playing the dang game and enjoying myself.

 

I still highly respect you both and appreciate your tremendous contributions to this community. I've done nothing but endorse and compliment your mods enthusiastically, supporting you both as best I could for awhile now. Then, I come in and make a comment and rather than a simple and respectful comment like "haven't seen that, but maybe there's something we just haven't run across yet - would be interesting to see the example you mentioned when you come across another one", I get an ear full from both of you (is ear full even really an appropriate term in a text only discussion? :)

 

Anyway, I've rambled enough. I'm sure I've given you both plenty more to pick apart and explain how wrong I am or how everything I said doesn't make any sense. Knock yourselves out if that's what floats your boat. As for me, I'm not going to be participating in this thread or the Mod Author's forum for awhile because it just isn't worth the headache - I have enough of those from medical problems. However, I do look forward to your upcoming mods. Looks like you both just released some updates. I'll probably try out Shor's Stone this weekend hopefully. Always did enjoy those small village updates you've done, Arthmoor...

 

Take care guys.

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I think the problem here is that you said it was the use of archives that cause these problems. It clearly isn't. It's bad assets. Meshes, textures, errors in the ESP, etc. It wouldn't matter in that case if everything were in loose files or in an archive. They'd still be broken.

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