Transformation Spells - Balance?

[raatorotta]

Seems more like an alteration type spell to me as you are changing something into something else.

 

That being said it would be hilarious to change an enemy into a rabbit or other harmless animal.

 

Try Wabbajack.

[danshive]

The Wabbajack is what made me realize that not only should these spells be possible, but they should be relatively easy to make. The code's basically already in the game. It just has to be understood and modified to suit the desired results.

 

As such, the challenge of the transformation spells is not making them, but keeping them balanced.

[jeffrobot]

Ironically, I think the transform-to-rabbit spell would be the most op. Transforming anyone to a rabbit would basically be like changing their hp to 10 and removing their ability to attack, right?

 

Hey OP, I know the idea of animal transformation is cool, but from a 'game design' perspective, what would you say it really adds to the game? As you said before, it is very similar to the illusion spells? Do you see it as creating a different playstyle, or recreating the illusion playstyle?

[danshive]

I would need to experiment to see what the full potential would be. I fully admit to it *mostly* being for the novelty, but at the same time, I'd like it to fit the game and not be overpowered. Or if a spell IS overpowered, at least have that in an optional separate mod.

 

There are definite trade-offs between illusion, however, such as enemies in altered states effectively being unharmed by whatever damage their transformed state takes (this is a natural side effect of using disable/enable for the transformation), the possibility to make an enemy more powerful before putting them into a frenzy, etc.

 

One of the very first spells I really want to try and see how well it works, however, is nothing like anything in Illusion, and that's a horse transformation spell with a recurring duration so long as you stay on the "horse". It's a spell I could have used earlier today, actually, when escorting this really useless non-essential guy to a specific location. No damage done to him as a horse would have carried back to his human form, and I could have used him to get there faster without having to own a horse. It's silly and bizarre, but it would have made the task easier. It could also be an alternative to ever buying a horse, relying on transformed fauna and low-level NPCs who look at you funny to quickly reach destinations without fast travel.

 

It's sort of a jerk move on the part of the spell caster, but this is the sort of messed up things I see spell casters doing, and would lend credence to all the characters who are wary of magic users (not that they really needed another reason).

 

Of course, a slightly less silly and bizarre spell to get the same results would be a conjured horse, but I see that sort of thing as being a higher level deal due to fewer drawbacks (such as not having to transform anything to get a horse).

Edited November 25, 2011 by danshive

[jeffrobot]

The horse idea sounds cool? Any other specific ones you've thought of?

 

I've been doing some thinking about interesting new kinds of magic myself. I know that NPCs in the game have a "responsibility" attribute of 1 - 100 that determines how likely they are to commit a crime - I think an awesome spell would be one that manipulated an npcs responsibility. Turning good people into thieving criminals - how cool is that?

[warshadow412]

there isa weapon named wabbajack :D and that can turn npc to chicken and dremora :D well the dremora killing everything off :D

[calisgett]

With the Illusion vs Alteration school perhaps with the new dual casting system you could have the transformation spell being in the alteration school and the mind affect being in the illusion and you need to dual cast both for it to be effective, since the way I see it, if I were to transform you into a bear, you would still be yourself, just in bear form and the illusion spell could make you an angry bear or something. You could make different versions of the illusion spells, just like the alteration. What I mean by this is.

 

The Illusion side has two different spells. Passive and aggressive. So you could turn your enemy's into passive rabbits or your companions into aggressive rabbits (of course I'm sure you could think of better version).

 

Then the alteration has different versions like a bear as a tank or rabbit is a rogue :P

 

Both spells should have to be dual casted together otherwise it doesn't work.

 

Balancing wise I honestly have no idea since I see this as OP but incredibly fun. Bosses and dragons shouldn't be allowed to be transformed maybe since it trivializes somethings. Or perhaps you could incorporate the use of soul gems, like to transform a human into a bear you need a charged black soul gem. Perhaps to obtain the spells you get like a quest from a guy in the mages college that specializes in this and you have to do quests for him to teach you, just a thought.

 

Just some ideas goodluck with the mod, definitely will be getting this if you release it

[ZER0777]

If you are worried about a spell being over powered do what xilver did in midas magic andmake the spell exremely difficult to obtain but not to dificullt that it is not worth the time it takes to get it. For example, you can hide them around the world like they did with the word walls or you can put them at the end of a difficult puzzle like a labyrinth or obstacle course. So only some one who is strong enough to use the spell without it being overpower could get it. Or, you could give the spell a chance to fail, and the chance getts bigger the higher the enemys level.

[elricshan]

Of course the enemies must get those spells to :D like turn the player into a rabit :D like that girl in the college but you can control yourself whi you are transformed and get the ability to transform yourself out of free will to. Like turning into a deer and run far away. Off cause this would all be alteration.

[onezerotwo]

Hello Future Modder,

 

Suggestions follow.

 

"Transmutation" is a gigantic field, I'd recommend you really hone in and specifically decide what your new spell tree or line of spells for a current tree (alteration) would serve as part of the game's mechanics. Illusion already fills the role of hard CC (crowd control) in Skyrim, so we'd have to figure out what your spells could do that would make them unique other than the fact they would be visually impressive.

 

For the description that follows, I'm going to use: "the transformation of living and inorganic matter into eachother or other forms of the same" for my questions/suggestions here!

 

Novice - Steel to Lead

 

It's easy, transforming metal into another metal, here... take your wand in hand...

 

A basic slow that slightly reduces damage the player takes from incoming attacks, here's the interesting part, it creates an inverse effect based on the target's armour level/weapon type. Skyrim is very good about showing us which enemies are heavily armoured and which are not (Bandit Leader v. Forsworn) so there wouldn't be too much player guesswork in figuring out what to cast this on. This also sticks with the alteration tree's theme of defense.

 

Apprentice - Dire Guardian

 

Yeah, you're right, at first glance that goat doesn't seem very dangerous at all, does it?

 

This is Transmutation's first transformative spell, this provides a buff to any unit it is cast upon, making it faster and deal more damage. This spell is designed to be unique from the Illusion spell Courage in that Courage buffs health and stamina and dire guardian buffs speed and damage. Initially in-game particle effects could be used to demonstrate the buffed unit, eventually busy modellers could work out minor changes to units (if they like) to expand on the spell's effect. Transmutation is a very "wow, what have I just done!?" spell tree so it aught to look the part.

 

Adept - Stone Curse

 

Forsworn are really scary, unless they can't move... what? Come on, I'll show you.

 

Skyrim has hard CC in the form of spells like Calm and Fear and there's no soft CC in the game, Stone Curse transforms a targets boots and gauntlets to stone, rooting them in place and preventing them from making non-magical attacks. I imagine a target running towards you and then bam, their hands and feet turn grey and they fall to an all-fours position, struggling to stand up. This is a short-term disable that allows magic users to continue casting. This spell may be a bit to similar to Steel to Lead but I'm just bashing out ideas here.

 

Expert - Humble Form

 

Yep, I'm a wizard.

 

You transform your target, temporarily, into a goat. While in this form the target's defenses are zero. There you go, ultimate hard CC, when you blow your mana on this then swap to stone curse to lock down a few other targets on the field as your Dremora butchers them, you're going to feel pretty godlike, might make Skyrim's tiny battles almost trivially difficult, would need some solution to make sure the game stayed hard on Master (maybe decrease the CC timer or add diminishing returns as difficulties go up)

 

Master - War Polymorph

 

You think I'm unarmed because I'm only carrying these two staves? Fools!"

 

Transforming other people is cool and all, but what we're looking for for mastery is self-polymorph. Talented modelers could make something cool or you can use pre-built effects like smoke, transparency, horns, etc (think Warcraft 3, Illidan's ultimate) to transform the character into something suitably deadly.

 

 

 

Could make for an interesting Expert or Adept level spell if the character could cast something to manifest other race's powers, but not the rapid recharge ones, maybe you get a random mix of resistances from other races and then two guaranteed abilities like Water Breathing (Argonian) and Eye of Night (Khaljit), supplementing more resistances if you are of one of those races.

 

Who knows! good luck!

Edited November 27, 2011 by onezerotwo