TES5Edit Critical Conflicts

[ricke44654]

Hello all. I have a question about conflict resolution in TES5Edit that I can't seem to find an answer for across the Internets, despite my best Google-Fu. My question is this - what makes a critical conflict (red text, fuchsia background) critical as far as TES5Edit is concerned? For example, I load up TES5Edit on my full load order and do an Apply Filter to show Conflict Losers. I see around 15 mods in the list (about 1/2 patches) that are marked as critical conflicts, but I don't really see why that would be.

 

Should critical conflicts always be fixed? I found more than a few instances where the winner had values that seemed reasonable to keep in place. Just trying to understand the nuances of the tool so I can use it appropriately. I've read the TES5Edit manual a couple times over the last two days along with numerous searches to try to track it down, but I didn't find really any explanation on critical conflicts.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Nephenee13]

Mods will conflict. The key is figuring out what you want to win that conflict.

If you want different mods to contribute different parts, you will need a conflict resolution patch of some sorts.

 

Conflicts aren't bad, they are the fundamental basis of how modding works.

[ricke44654]

Thanks for the reply. I understand that conflicts will happen, in fact nearly have to happen as that is the basis of how Skyrim mods fundamentally work in an overriding fashion. But if TES5Edit identifies something as a critical conflict, that seems to imply something needs attention and shouldn't be ignored or allowed to pass through. Otherwise, why not just show it as a conflict without calling it a critical conflict? No flames intended here, just trying to understand the difference from a standard conflict, if indeed there is a difference. :)

[Nephenee13]

Thanks for the reply. I understand that conflicts will happen, in fact nearly have to happen as that is the basis of how Skyrim mods fundamentally work in an overriding fashion. But if TES5Edit identifies something as a critical conflict, that seems to imply something needs attention and shouldn't be ignored or allowed to pass through. Otherwise, why not just show it as a conflict without calling it a critical conflict? No flames intended here, just trying to understand the difference from a standard conflict, if indeed there is a difference. :smile:

 

TES5Edit has literally no idea what the mods you load into it are "supposed" to do. It can't tell if a conflict will break a mod completely or not. A Critical Conflict is, simply a record that is completely overwritten by a later loading one. This can be perfectly fine, or it can break a mod entirely. It just depends.

 

I would highly suggest looking into the utility Mator Smash, which uses TES5Edit as a backend and can create a patch that can resolve almost any conflict. It is a little daunting at first, but it is also incredibly powerful

[Sharlikran]

I don't think I can really add much to what has already been said. I ported the text from the training manual to a Wiki page. I have never added all the screen shots from the training manual except for the section on conflicts and overrides. You mentioned you read the manual but you're still unsure about what critical really means but I don't see that in the manual. Red doesn't mean critical it means conflict looser. The training manual explains what the colors mean and section 4 explains Conflict Detection and Resolution. The only way to get the row to stop being red is to drag values to all the plugins altering the same record which isn't how you resolve anything.

 

When I apply a filter to find conflict loosers I may only load certain mods or I may load all the mods in my data folder. However, then I look at the records to see what they change. If I feel it's reasonable then I leave it alone. If not then I use copy as override into and make a manual patch. My patch might only contain a few changes because the majority of the time the winning mod has the value that should be there anyway.

 

So in the end the colors are important but they are explained. Other then that you need to decide whether or not the change provided by the author is what you feel comfortable with. If it is leave it, if not make a manual patch as discussed in section 4. I have never used Mator Smash but there is nothing wrong with trying it. The only thing is it's automatic. So again when it's done you need to see if you feel the change is what you want or not.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Sharlikran

[ricke44654]

@Nephenee13 - I wasn't expecting TES5Edit to be a savant and tell me what my mods are "supposed" to do, not at all. :) No, what I was looking for was the distinction between a conflict and a critical conflict and what that means. If a critical conflict is simply a record that is completely overwritten by a later loading one -- that's perfect and nailed what I was looking for, a definition of a critical conflict. I spent considerable time searching for an answer online because "critical" to me generally means something urgent, don't ignore, etc. and I wasn't sure if it was a stronger indicator that something would break in Skyrim if not addressed. That doesn't appear to be the case.

 

@Nephenee13, @Sharlikran - Thank you for the responses, I appreciate it. I'm trying to learn TES5Edit in more detail so I can address conflicts more appropriately for my wife's rig to get a stable setup - she seems to get late game issues (somewhere between Level 30-40 character) where she hits a spot where the game does CTD / freeze every time in an area, building, particular weapon/armor... it varies. At lower levels, she doesn't seem to have problems with the same area, building, etc., though she may get the occasional CTD as Skyrim wants to do. It seems to point to something else maybe opening up later in game maybe? I haven't been able to nail it yet. My own rig doesn't seem to have these issues, though I fully understand we have different hardware, different mods, different orders... so it's not the same. We use Mod Organizer, Loot, Wrye Bash, TES5Edit for Merge Patch (automatic), SKSE, ENBoost, etc. In the past, I've had reasonable success just using Loot, Bash Patch, Merge Patch, mod patches, and install / load order adjustments to get a stable playthrough - I've finished a few times, and I use bigger mods (Requiem, Legacy of the Dragonborn) together than she does. Not once for her... and boy do I hear it, especially after it's been the 3rd-4th-5th time it happens. :ohmy: :ermm:

 

Don't mean to go on, just wanted to explain the method to my madness and my goal for a happy home. :) My thanks to you both for your explanations.

[Sharlikran]

I don't get to play any of the games much at all. It would seem to be very frustrating to play from level 1 to 30 and travel all over the place only to hit about level 35ish and then you crash all the time. I've experienced crashes in the past but it's never for the same reason. The two things I do try to fix or work out are deleted objects and deleted navmeshes.

 

Not all mods always need to be cleaned. However, there is no reason you can't apply the Filter for cleaning and then using only the UDR function. It will undelete deleted objects like trees and rocks and place them out of reach of the game. So even if an author says don't clean my mod, well then don't but I can't think of any good reason not to deal with UDRs. Meaning don't use the ITM routine just the UDR routine.

 

With an unmodded game dirty edits in the DLC won't affect your game at all. With a modded game anything that loads after a mod with UDRs will cause a crash if it's accessing a deleted object from a mod higher in your load order. So at Hex 40 you have ModA.esp with 100 UDRs and at Hex 45 you have a mod trying to access one of those objects. It will crash the game. Remove the UDR and now it won't.

 

When you clean mods you will notice that TES5Edit will tell you there are x amount of deleted navmeshes that can't be undeleted. Those are left over by a mod author that doesn't know they are there or doesn't know how to resolve them. So if you see that, those mods will also cause a crash because any mod loading after them will crash as well for the same reason it does for deleted objects.

 

To inspect mods you don't even need to save it after running the cleaning procedure. Load one and run the cleaning process but uncheck the box at the end and don't save it. Then if you have UDRs those can be resolved automatically by xEdit. If you see deleted navmeshes you may want to consider a play through without those mods. A deleted navmesh can be dealt with but I don't recommend it for novice users. Undeleting one may create another. Sometimes I see a mod that looks really interesting and I try it out but I always look for deleted navmeshes. I have fixed mods for mod authors in the past and I might only find 2 deleted navmeshes to start with. Before I am done I may have had to fix multiple navmeshes and undelete any number of the vanilla navmeshes and resolve them.

 

UDRs and deleted navmeshes are almost guaranteed to be an issue. It should not occur at a certain level so I can't help you with that. Something to consider anyway. I guess the only other thing is don't forget about your memory block but I believe that's part of SKSE now. Also ENBoost can help with video ram as well. I use the ENBoost but don't have the ENB graphical portion active. I'm not sure which video about ENBoost is the newest. I use just the ENB binaries I didn't have to download anything from the nexus. Again those videos may be outdated.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Sharlikran

[ricke44654]

Sharlikran, thanks very much for the insight, I appreciate it. Your points about what you try to fix are quite helpful as I've found it somewhat difficult to pin some of those things down... sometimes it feels like I'm searching for a needle in a pile of needles. There's a literal mountain of information out there on Skyrim, but sometimes divining what's useful / correct from stuff that's outdated, wrong, misinformed, etc. can be a challenge. I've been playing modded Skyrim for a couple years now and feel I have a solid understanding of the basics, but sometimes it almost feels like I need to be an amateur modder to ferret out the problems.

 

Outside of doing auto merge patches, I haven't really delved into TES5Edit much until now. Perhaps I have benefited from my laziness for too long and just been lucky. :smile: I feel I have a good technical understanding of how to edit in TES5Edit, it's the understanding of what conflicts / issues are important to resolve vs. what really won't cause a problem that seems to be hard to find. It sure hasn't been from a lack of reading / watching. If you have any other pointers on nearly certain game killers when left unfixed, I would gladly accept them. I found this post the other day from Arthmoor that was most helpful - http://afkmods.iguanadons.net/index.php?/topic/3940-skyrim-tes5edit-records-that-merge-at-runtime/

 

I do have SKSE with it's memory goodness setup and I also use ENBoost without the graphic portion active, though my attempts to get it going on my wife's rig met with negative results... it got stutters and freezes instead of smoothing it out. I worked on troubleshooting it for quite a while, but the end result was no joy so I don't use it on her's... perhaps I gave up too early. A bit odd since she's got a "gaming" laptop (an Alienware M14x) and I expected it to perform better than my own. ENBoost works a treat on my laptop and I have no issues.

 

My thanks again for your response.

Edited October 7, 2016 by ricke44654

[Sharlikran]

I do have SKSE with it's memory goodness setup and I also use ENBoost without the graphic portion active, though my attempts to get it going on my wife's rig met with negative results... it got stutters and freezes instead of smoothing it out. I worked on troubleshooting it for quite a while, but the end result was no joy so I don't use it on her's... perhaps I gave up too early. A bit odd since she's got a "gaming" laptop (an Alienware M14x) and I expected it to perform better than my own. ENBoost works a treat on my laptop and I have no issues.

One thing I found while fiddling with ENB is that you should get the binaries from the author and install it just as is. Then for the INI files you should use what he provides. If you are watching a video or going to add a line make the change to the file the author provided. Don't cut and paste an entire INI file from another source. You can't really copy the INI files from other version, videos, internet links, and so on. because things may have changed.

 

Obviously you wouldn't go out and buy any programs to make your INI files work but since I have to have it I compare files with BeyondCompare. Then I can see the changes and if it looks like for sure it should be changed I do it. Otherwise I leave it alone. That's vague I know but many times only a few lines need to change for the ENBoost portion to become active. Changing the least amount of lines is best.