90 replies to this topic

[IxionInc]

Alright, here's the first dragon lord you'll fight out in the Reach. He'll probably look similar to a cross between Odahviing and a Blood Dragon. I'm envisioning his dragon cavern as being labyrinthian, thinly populated, and frankly, it will be hard to reach him once he starts moving. He knows his way around the place- you don't. Look out for attacks from behind pillars and tricks involving 'Throw Voice'. If you look at his taunts, you'll notice I made him quite arrogant- he leaves out all of the comments on honour and a good fight that most of the other dragons do.

I'm also starting to come up with an idea for a concept for female dragons, or Dragon Matriarchs, if you will. I haven't really developed it, but I'm envisioning them as being more graceful and elegant than the males, but also being a real pain to fight, especially in dragon caverns.

Naxfeynfaas [Translation: Cruelty Bane Fear]
'Fo Krah Diin'- Ice-Breathing
'Yol Toor Shul'- Fire-Breathing
'Fus Ro Dah'- Unrelenting Force
'Wuld Nah Kest'- Whirlwind Sprint
'Zun Haal Viik'- Disarm
'Strun Bah Qo'- Storm Call
'Lok Vah Koor'- Clear Skies
'Tiid Klo Ul'- Slow Time
'Iiz Slen Nus'- Ice Form
'Zul Mey Gut'- Throw Voice

Taunts

"Hiding will not save you!"

"Dovahkiin! Your Voice is no match for mine!"

"Daar denek fen dahmaan hin dinok, Dovahkiin!" Translation: This soil will remember your death Dragonborn!

"Ful lusei Dovahkiin? Geinmaar prodah pogaas!" Translation: You are Dragonborn? I expected [direct: was foretold] more [direct: much]!

This dragon sounds awesome to fight with. Especially if he didn't fly in his lair, and instead crawled on the walls/ceiling like in an Aliens movie. The taunts are something regular dragons severely lack as well.
I think adding, or replacing the normal dragon lairs with new ones is definitely a good choice if done well.

Matriarchs could be really cool too. Especially if they were found in nests of dragonlings and juvenile dragons. Can we get an Onyxia type thing going on?
I think the Matriarchs should have a shout or some kind of attack that involves their role as brood-mothers. Like a shout that hatches dragon/drake/wyvern eggs. Maybe there could be a singular Matriarch who rose to power in Alduin's absence, and is breeding an army of dragons... Or even dragon-kin. There could be dragon eggs that randomly fall from the sky, dropped by a dragon; or maybe the Matriarchs carry more than one egg on their backs like frogs or scorpions, and use them as weapons against the player!
Like, say Wyverns and Drakes are just as intelligent as Dragons, but don't have the power of the Thu'um, making them ostracized by regular dragons. Maybe there's a dragon lord/matriarch who seeks to usurp that dragon rule, and overthrow the "pureblood" dragons.
Not only could random encounters continue after the quest, and you could witness those cool raising/birthing rituals, but there would be a chance for dragon in-fighting, and maybe a dragon faction.

In fact, I'd love to see Dragons that have minions in general. Dragons were worshipped as lords, primarily by humans, but what about other creatures? Dragons are practically at the top of the food-chain. And especially after you defeat Alduin, and leave it open for another power hungry dragon, there should be no excuse for EVERY dragon to fight on it's own. There could be dragons that have Draugr followers, a dragon and dragon-priest duo, or even dragons that simply seek knowledge, and have become necromancers or Oblivion conjurers. I'd love to see a dragon rip open a portal to one of the realms of Oblivion, and attack a city with an Oblivion Gate.

There is a lot of potential here, and I really hope you recognize it.

Edited by IxionInc, 16 December 2011 - 08:08 PM.

[Galacticat42]

In fact, I'd love to see Dragons that have minions in general. Dragons were worshipped as lords, primarily by humans, but what about other creatures? Dragons are practically at the top of the food-chain. And especially after you defeat Alduin, and leave it open for another power hungry dragon, there should be no excuse for EVERY dragon to fight on it's own. There could be dragons that have Draugr followers, a dragon and dragon-priest duo, or even dragons that simply seek knowledge, and have become necromancers or Oblivion conjurers. I'd love to see a dragon rip open a portal to one of the realms of Oblivion, and attack a city with an Oblivion Gate.

There is a lot of potential here, and I really hope you recognize it.

Oh man you just gave me a crazy idea... Change around the 'Deep Dragon' idea (mentioned in TFG's forum) into a Dragon of Namira - black as night with clouds of pure shadow that streak off its wings. It shouts to raise graveyards and crypts, it shouts to summon multitudes of insects and it shouts to consume things in shadows. And in its wake, a terrible gathering of Draugr and Vampires amass.

Edited by Budz42, 17 December 2011 - 10:50 AM.

[IxionInc]

In fact, I'd love to see Dragons that have minions in general. Dragons were worshipped as lords, primarily by humans, but what about other creatures? Dragons are practically at the top of the food-chain. And especially after you defeat Alduin, and leave it open for another power hungry dragon, there should be no excuse for EVERY dragon to fight on it's own. There could be dragons that have Draugr followers, a dragon and dragon-priest duo, or even dragons that simply seek knowledge, and have become necromancers or Oblivion conjurers. I'd love to see a dragon rip open a portal to one of the realms of Oblivion, and attack a city with an Oblivion Gate.

There is a lot of potential here, and I really hope you recognize it.

Oh man you just gave me a crazy idea... Change around the 'Deep Dragon' idea (mentioned in TFG's forum) into a Dragon of Namira - black as night with clouds of pure shadow that streak off its wings. It shouts to raise graveyards and crypts, it shouts to summon multitudes of insects and it shouts to consume things in shadows. And in its wake, a terrible gathering of Draugr and Vampires amass.

I personally love the Deep Dragon idea, partially because I keep envisioning a kind of "nature" based dragon that went into hibernation underground with mushrooms and other flora growing on it, and controlled Spriggans and Chaurus or something.
However, that idea sounds spectacularly awesome. Especially if there were one of those dragons that created a virulent plague of sorts, and attacked a Hold. Undead minions and insect swarms sounds amazing.

But this is why I think separated dragon types would seem so awesome. Even if it's not separated by dragon breed, element, or magic school, and instead there were dragons that were categorized by what Divine/Daedric Prince they served, it would still serve to structure it. A Dragon servant of Mehrunes Dagon could have Dremora bodyguards and Flame Atronach minions, and it could easily sate my desire for a fire dragon.

Edited by IxionInc, 17 December 2011 - 09:50 PM.

[Zinnorokkrah]

Hmm... I'll see what I can do with the wyverns and drakes. The concept of new shouts is one I haven't looked at for the most part, so this should get interesting. And sorry, no dragon matriarchs dropping eggs and having them hatch.

[amtrack]

I support this, definitely nice to see some well-thought out suggestions like this. I actually think, if anything, the game needs a more definitive hierarchy when it comes to dragons. As of now, every dragon is pretty much the same, but harder to kill. They look almost identical, minus minor color/design changes. Here are some suggestions I have in mind, that I imagine some ppl are already working on:

1) Size changes: Quite frankly, higher class dragons should be much bigger than lower class dragons. I'd either reduce the size of lower class dragons, or increase the size of higher class ones. Dragons are already pretty big though, but I say just play around with it and see how it goes.

2) Attack changes: This pretty much fits in line with the original suggestion. Higher level dragons should have increasingly larger attack pools, and attack variety. There's no reason why a high level dragon couldn't, for instance, utilize multiple shouts or multiple elemental breaths. Mainly, they need to appear more forceful. Dragon breaths as they are now are pretty weak. Higher level dragon breaths should look increasingly more powerful imo.

3) Legendary/Boss class Dragons: This could be a lore issue of course, unless both Alduin and Paathurnax are rebalanced. If lore isn't a big issue, it wouldnt hurt to add "legendary" dragons, ones that dwarf *all* others in size, strength, attack power, and health. Legendary dragons should make the average character have to retreat, and even force a strong character to think twice. In other words, they should be scaled starting near the level cap, if not at the level cap. Legendaries should have unique breaths, shouts, or even elements..and naturally should make us all soil our loincloths. You could give them either a very low random encounter rate, or give them a lair..maybe both? For fun, legendary armor could be crafted from their hides. Legendaries should be pretty limited, Boss Dragons can be more numerous imo. Heck, Legendaries could be added in installments, akin to the Pokemon franchise. They could even be released through quests. Just food for thought here.


Anyway the third idea is just for giggles, the first two are probably the most important. The third one was a fun expansion of the original premise of the thread, something that can continually added upon, and something that would give "difficulty junkies" their fix..without ruining the fun for everyone else.

[IxionInc]

Hmm... I'll see what I can do with the wyverns and drakes. The concept of new shouts is one I haven't looked at for the most part, so this should get interesting. And sorry, no dragon matriarchs dropping eggs and having them hatch.

Well, then you should probably take a look at this then: http://www.skyrimnex...ile.php?id=3829
As far as I can see, this guy is like, 3 steps ahead of you.

And as for the matriarchs, I hope you're simply crossing out the idea of them bombing the player with eggs; Because if they didn't at least do SOMETHING along the lines of birthing/hatching dragonlings or dragon-kin, they'd be like every other blood, swamp, elder and ancient dragon around. It'd be a pity to lose such a concept.

I support this, definitely nice to see some well-thought out suggestions like this. I actually think, if anything, the game needs a more definitive hierarchy when it comes to dragons. As of now, every dragon is pretty much the same, but harder to kill. They look almost identical, minus minor color/design changes.

Exactly. Each battle is boring and the same, not just because the dragons have like, 3 attacks, but because they're all the SAME. No variety. At. All.
I'm not saying make each and every dragon you encounter earth, wind, fire and water incarnate, like a bloody Planeteer; I'm just saying there needs more structure and variety, and a stronger tie to the primal ferocity that dragons are through variation in attacks and form.

1) Size changes: Quite frankly, higher class dragons should be much bigger than lower class dragons. I'd either reduce the size of lower class dragons, or increase the size of higher class ones. Dragons are already pretty big though, but I say just play around with it and see how it goes.

I'm not too big on this change for randomly spawned dragons. And even for boss and legendary dragons, I feel they should be scripted. However, if wyverns, sea serpents, drakes, chimaeras, and whatever other flying beasties are added in, they could take the place of regular dragon attacks with the added creatures being smaller than regular dragons, and the regular dragons could remain the same size. Kinda bump it up from the bottom, y'know?
But if that doesn't tickle your pickle, then maybe make legendary and boss dragons relatively stationary? Like, they fly a few hundred feet out, and that's it; Their aggro is completely focused on the player.

2) Attack changes: This pretty much fits in line with the original suggestion. Higher level dragons should have increasingly larger attack pools, and attack variety. There's no reason why a high level dragon couldn't, for instance, utilize multiple shouts or multiple elemental breaths. Mainly, they need to appear more forceful. Dragon breaths as they are now are pretty weak. Higher level dragon breaths should look increasingly more powerful imo.

This is a definite. But not just the shouts. I'd like the dragon fights to be fun as well, such as with my suggestions for Naxfeynfaas and the matriarchs. Break the monotony of "Shooty shoot shoot, land, stab, heal, shooty shoot again". That's why I suggested the hatching mechanic. Or that Naxfeynfaas like to be a stealthy ninja dragon.
I mean, aren't all dragons sentient beings? They have their own language for crying out loud. Surely they can have preferences just as a mage, rogue and fighter do.

Another thing I'd like to see is more environmental interaction from the dragons, particularly higher level ones. Sure, you shoot fire at a tree; It leaves a small blaze on one of the branches. But a powerful dragon should light that thing ablaze. Not like, burn it down, for the sake of laziness, but just something.

3) Legendary/Boss class Dragons: This could be a lore issue of course, unless both Alduin and Paathurnax are rebalanced. If lore isn't a big issue, it wouldnt hurt to add "legendary" dragons, ones that dwarf *all* others in size, strength, attack power, and health. Legendary dragons should make the average character have to retreat, and even force a strong character to think twice. In other words, they should be scaled starting near the level cap, if not at the level cap. Legendaries should have unique breaths, shouts, or even elements..and naturally should make us all soil our loincloths. You could give them either a very low random encounter rate, or give them a lair..maybe both? For fun, legendary armor could be crafted from their hides. Legendaries should be pretty limited, Boss Dragons can be more numerous imo. Heck, Legendaries could be added in installments, akin to the Pokemon franchise. They could even be released through quests. Just food for thought here.

Bam. Major point I'd like to get to.
I realize I have this huge element-fetish, but c'mon. Alduin was the embodiment of death and extinction, placed in dragon form. Who's to say there aren't other titan-like beings similar to him?

Hence why I feel that legendary dragons, although scripted and possibly restricted to a certain dungeon or quest, should mimic a blasting volcano, or a gargantuan glacier. They don't even have to resemble whatever element they are. Hell, they don't even have to be elements! They can just even be based on abstract concepts! Look at the way RIFT handled it.

Regulos, the dragon of extinction, personifies death; while Akylios, the dragon of madness, personifies water.

You could have one like Dudoahkrin; Devourer of Courage, as some kind of two-headed dragon made of wailing faces that casts fear and frenzy upon enemies.

[Zinnorokkrah]

It's not a speed contest. I'm considering entire new quest lines for goodness sake! In any case, the matriarchs are going to have some sort of ability pertaining to their female nature- perhaps something that summons dragonlings? A shout that might, perhaps, strengthen dragons? I don't know. I'll look into the wyverns and dragon-kin, and I've already come up with a bit of back-story to them which could be interesting. In any case, I will absolutely consider giving the dragon lords unique shouts- I'm actually drafting one for Naxfeynfaas right now- something that will likely drive everyone into the area insane. Even companions will attack you, and everything else. It might cause severe casualties among his own followers, but it will be worth it if it can hurt you. He might have the advantage of knowing his lair, but he's also restricted. Maybe while you're fighting him he's evading and trying to hurt you at the same so that he can get out into the open air and get aloft.

[Zinnorokkrah]

Added a new shout to Naxfeynfaas as well as a few spells and I gave a few spells to the Storm Dragon and the Fire Dragon. Here's a list of the dragon-kin I'm planning to include, as well as the Dragon Matriarch.

Dragon-kin: In the first Dragon War there were some that stood up to Alduin and his reign of terror in Skyrim. For their troubles, they were killed, their eggs stolen, and experimented on. Through dark magic and the power of the Voice Alduin stripped the eggs of their souls, giving them instead an additional skill in magic and thus the dragon-kin came into Nirn. These creatures are every bit as vicious and intelligent as dragons, and can even be incited against their Voiced brethren by a cunning hero.

Wyverns-

Similar to a crestless, spiny Blood Dragon
Uses a 'Poison Breath' along the lines of a Chaurus
Can cast 'Wards' and 'Flame Cloak' [When health reaches %50]

Wyrms-

A four-legged, wingless Dragon
Uses a 'Poison Breath' along the lines of a Chaurus, and a 'Steam Attack' like a Dwarven Centurion
Semi-Aquatic- lives in rivers, marshes, can be lured onto land
Uses 'Wards' and 'Dragonhide'

Sea Serpent-

An aquatic, finned, northern Dragon
Uses a 'Steam Attack' like a Dwarven Centurion
Can cast 'Wards', 'Blizzard' [When health reaches %25], 'Dragonhide', and 'Water-breathing'

New Dragons

Dragon Matriarch-

A more slender, graceful version of every dragon. Can appear at the same rate as other dragons.
For shouts see the respective dragons they match up with.
However, Dragon Matriarchs do have a few unique abilities-
'Kiin Zeymah Kiir'- Brooding [Translation: Born Brothers Child- summons dragonlings and drakes to her, increases their stamina, health, and resistance to damage]
Uses the spells 'Heal Other' [When Dragonling health reaches %25] and 'Harmony'

Ancient Frost-

See Frost Dragon
The Ancient Frost Dragon is impervious to Frost damage
Add the spells 'Blizzard' [On the ground], 'Frost Cloak' [When health reaches %25], 'Wall of Frost' [In the air]

Ancient Fire-

See the Fire Dragon
The Ancient Fire Dragon is impervious to Fire damage
Add the spells 'Fire Storm' [On the ground], 'Fire Cloak' [When health reaches %25], 'Wall of Flames' [In the air]

Ancient Storm

See the Storm Dragon
The Ancient Storm Dragon is impervious to Shock damage
Add the spells 'Lighting Storm' [On the ground], 'Lightning Cloak' [When health reaches %25, 'Wall of Storms' [In the air]

So what do you think?

Edited by Zinnorokkrah, 16 January 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[IxionInc]

**Snipped for convenience.**

The top bits, I absolutely love. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

I still feel the Matriarchs simply conjuring dragonlings out of thin air is a bit sketchy (Of course, it could work like the Odahviing shout, or maybe they can burrow out of the ground or something), but the fact that they are primarily armchair generals who let their minions do the work for them is wonderful, especially with the heal other spells. Makes it a bit more fun.

The ancient dragons sound super awesome as well, especially if they were to use the walls tactically from the air to block off the player's path or something.

Looking good so far.

And I would like to personally apologize for being a bit of a hardass in my posts. I wasn't trying to imply in the last post that this whole dragon improvement thing was a race. I was just trying to point out that someone's managed to do custom shouts without the CK, and that it's possible.
Sorry bro. :{

*shoosh-paps all around*

Edited by IxionInc, 20 December 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[Zinnorokkrah]

Ah it's fine- and yes, the 'Brooding' shout works like the Odahviing shout- except, you know with something like fifteen ravenous dragonlings. I feel I should develop the dragon-kin lore a bit more- tailor it to the Elder Scrolls universe. Another concept I'm working on is dragon lore walls- word walls simply covered with writing. The player can translate it themselves, or they could bring a wizard to the wall location and will then translate it and put the contents into a book you'll receive next time you're there. The Ancient Elemental Dragons 'should' be able to use those spells tactically, but perhaps some scripting in their attack sequence could fix the general AI stupidity when it comes to manipulating magic. I was thinking of perhaps scripting Naxfeynfaas to attack along a length of tunnel on his way out, similar to the way Alduin breaks into and down a wall in Helgen at the beginning of the game. In any case, I was also thinking of perhaps incorporating a lot of traps and massive traps which can only be escaped from by using shouts (Like when you're searching for Jurgen's Horn just after the Greybeards teach you 'Whirlwind Sprint') The next dragon lord should be up by tomorrow- he should be up in the Hold of Hjaalmarch and is designed more as a honourable, though over-confident, mage-like dragon.