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Qwinn´s Ultimate DAO Fixpack v3 (no longer beta!)


Katzapult

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Upon further review:

 

1) Looking at the script, it explicitly removes the key from her inventory when she gives it to you (which is typically only done so you can't have her give you one and then steal a second one). Technically, though, It could also be done so you can't loot a second key off her corpse.

 

2) She does actually have the key on her, it just isn't marked as stealable.

 

3) There is code to check and make sure you can't ask her for the key if you no longer have a need for it - which is necessary in the case that you stole it, as she can't plausibly realize she doesn't have the key anymore throughout a conversation that ends in her giving it to you - but, it's slightly off. It checks a plot flag to see if she gave you the key, rather than checking your inventory for it. It'd be a simple matter to have it just check if you physically have it (it also checks if the cage has been opened, which would remove the key) so that once you steal it, you can't get into the problematic conversation.

 

Given the above information, what do you guys think? Key nonstealable - bug or not?

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Bleah! No, it ain't that simple sadly. (LadyHonor, we crossposted, read above please :) Sten's dialogue also checks the plot flag set by her giving it to you rather than whether you actually have it in your possession. So, you can have it on you, but you can't tell Sten you have it in dialogue unless she gave it to you in her dialogue. I can make it work properly, but it would take more than just flipping the stealable flag to on.

 

Here's what I suspect happened: In older versions of the game, they originally meant to allow you to steal it (thus the line in the dialogue of you admitting to it, and the script removing it from her), but it caused problems due to the reliance on the plot flag instead of checking your inventory. They knew they could fix it (I know I could), but they considered it more trouble than it was worth, so they just made it unstealable to avoid the problem. That would track with the wiki's description about it being patched.

 

Even so, I'm leaning toward just leaving it alone now, since I try to be fairly strict about only changing things that are clearly a bug. There's evidence pointing in both directions on this one, and in those cases, I try to lean on the side of caution. But I am open to listen to arguments for making it work, if anyone feels strongly about it.

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And in that same spirit, on further review, I'm retracting this fix, so no new fixes tonight sadly:

 

E16. "The Qunari Prisoner". Per the Dragon Age Wiki: "Bug! If The Warden gets the key by intimidation, Sten will be surprised that the Revered Mother agreed to part with the key. He suspects The Warden has stolen the key off her, and sometimes you can't deny it, even if you didn't steal it." This is fixed.

 

Looking at it more closely, this may be intentional. First, the Wiki description is inaccurate: he is always surprised that the Reverend Mother parted with it whether you intimidated her or not, and beyond that he never suggests he thinks you stole it. If you were forced into admitting you stole it, then I'd definitely agree it needs fixing. But you can always respond instead "<Lie>She agreed to release you into my custody"... and I think calling that a lie is plausible, since she didn't really AGREE to anything, you demanded you give it to her with threats. There are a couple of paths where you get the key with threats that do set the "she agrees" flag, but both involve either Leliana's or Alistair's intervention that seems to make her slightly less pissed off. One where no one intervenes and you just bully it out of her - yeah, I can see them intending that claiming she agreed to it would be a lie. I'm going to leave it be.

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I've never actually tried to steal or ask the revered mother for it. if i'm not playing as a rogue, I always have lel pick the lock. lol personally, I never really thought about it, but that isn't the first weird thing the developers have done that made little sense. in my enchanting mementoes mod, I needed to capture the flag when you give Alistair his mother's amulet but it was impossible to do it without editing the dialog line because for some insane reason it set it and cleared it in the same dang line. what I finally wound up doing was altering the amulet uti to send a campaign acquired event when you picked it up off the arl's table. there are a lot of annoying things like that in there and it forces you to get creative. lol

 


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Okay, I've decided here's what I'm gonna do:

 

E15. "The Qunari Prisoner": You can no longer admit to Sten that you stole the key from the Revered Mother, since it isn't actually possible to steal it from her anymore - according to the DA wiki, it was made unstealable in an official patch, so that dialogue line should be removed as well.

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sounds simple enough. while you're adding and subtracting lines, there is one in Alistair's I would *love* for you to fix. if you go to the mage tower before going to redcliff and side with Templars, you have absolutely no other options than killing Isolde (who should die every time...mages or Templars...doesn't matter) or killing Connor. is there anything you can do to keep him from ripping you a new one when you get back to camp if you kill Isolde? I mean he knows there's no one at the tower to help. it's either her or the boy. he should be happy you could at least save the boy.

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Sorry, went to sleep after making that decision.

 

I'll absolutely take a look at that, it does sound suspicious. Remember though, I can't touch it if it looks to be intentional - I limit the Fixpack to fixing bugs and immersion breaking unintended behavior, can't do a thing about bad writing, if that's what it turns out to be. Will be a while before I can evaluate it though, I'm still a good way from Redcliffe. I will be doing it in the order you're talking about though (Circle first), so I should get to see it.

 

EDIT: Hmmm... wasn't planning on siding with the Templars though. I'm playing a mage this time through! Heh, that would be interesting, a mage siding with the Templars...

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Okay, I just snuck a look ahead to that dialogue. There *are* references in that chewing out bit to the possibility of seeking help from the mages, and it doesn't seem to take into account the possibility that there no longer is a circle. At the very least I should be able to add a condition to block lines like "There was no time to try the Circle of Magi" if that does in fact contradict the player's earlier choices. He might still chew you out, I haven't gotten that far yet in my investigation to know for sure, but at least it'd be a more generic "You could've done something!!" than "Why didn't you get help from the Circle", which you're right, isn't appropriate at all if you sided with the Templars.

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EDIT: Hmmm... wasn't planning on siding with the Templars though. I'm playing a mage this time through! Heh, that would be interesting, a mage siding with the Templars...

 

heheheh I do it all the time just so I can kill wynne....I know a lot of people love her, but that preachy ol' biddie who keeps throwing herself at my man has to go. lol

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