[WIP] Weapon Addition and Replacement Suite (WARS)

[Tenurialrope3]

Hi, sticking my head out here again.

I was planning to ask this about the (then) planned post-release 1911, now that it's going to be made now, well I better ask now:

 

Will the physical ingame model of the gun be scaled "correctly"/true-to-life? As in it would be a bit less than one inch longer (edit: I wrote that as "shorter", damnit me...) (from what I've read) than the Glock 17 in the mod (assuming that that one is scaled "right", seems so).

With pretty much all 1911 mods (ones with custom animations, that's generally my absolute minimum standard for using a weapon mod) I've tried (not that many, but still),

the gun in-hand always seems either too big or too small physically (yes, I'm petty enough that something like that bothers me once I notice it (or think I notice it)).

I've seen this "issue" (as I said) on enough other 1911 mods that I'm paranoid that it will happen in this mod as well.

 

If this comes off in a bad way (kind of reads like it does), my apologies (to the authors of those other 1911 mods as well. ("I'm sorry, I'm just petty, I can't help it!")).

Edited June 12, 2020 by Tenurialrope3

[antistar]

Getting scale right (and consistently right) is a surprisingly difficult thing to do in games.

 

I scaled the M1911 off the Glock according to their real-world dimensions though, yes. It's always the first thing I do, since it's so important to get right, affects the scale of everything else you do for a weapon, and is a real pain to change later on (e.g. once you've given it a bunch of weapon mods). This is the reason the Skorpion in WARS is actually bigger than it should be; I initially over-sized it intentionally so it would better fit Hitman's Kiparis animations - but then once I went to do my own animations for it later on, I didn't want to resize it because some of its weapon mods would no longer believably fit if I did. So it's a bit too big, compared to the real thing.

 

Anyway, from memory I scaled the Glock off Deliverer, since it's a Walther PPK - a rare example of a real-world gun in vanilla FO4. So it boils down to how accurately scaled the PPK is.

[Tenurialrope3]

I certainly will agree that model scaling in games is not easy, I have very, very little experience in working with game's models,

but it does match up with you say there, and I've read similar things on other game/mod related forums.

 

Youch, yeah I think the Deliverer is scaled slightly too large ingame.

I'm pretty sure the downsized model of the "Battlefield 1 Animation Pack - Deliverer" mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/30928) is more accurate to the real thing than the vanilla version is.

(Admittedly, this is almost literally just from feel, looking at the model ingame, and comparing to other mod weapons that I feel pretty securely are scaled right. I can't exactly say anything definitive.)

 

I suppose that the fact that the mod's Glock has 10mm & .45 (.45 option for the Glock is in, right? I would suggest next time you update the weapon details list in the second post, to put the chambering options there as well.)

calibre options does help justify it maybe being sized very slightly too large (though/and the Glock in-hand in the ingame pics you've shown does look about right, so there's also that).

And the 1911 is a big pistol anyway so if it is scaled based on the Glock then it would probably not look that off (if at all) (I hope).

 

(This is what I'm talking about when I say that I'm petty. Most mod users would probably not care (or even notice) at all about minor details like this.)

Edited June 12, 2020 by Tenurialrope3

[Shanzyboo]

I full well see where you're coming from Tenurialrope3, I can be quite picky when it comes to accurate weapon scaling too as Antistar could point out when I inquired their thoughts on Novas Dragunov SVD in Russian Assault Pack, initially I thought it was too small but now that I've seen it ingame it seems too large lol. When it comes to the 1911 mods a lot of them can get away with it being they're customs, like Dan Wesson and Kimbers, which tend to be a little larger than your standard issue M1911A1, even the Thompson SMG Replacer Antistars done for WARS and the standalone which was released seems a little small to me, but that's due to the animations used and tweaked for it..sorry Antistar lol.

 

A question regarding the M1911 Antistar, is there going to be an option for a full on standard issue M1911A1 for WARS? I find the M1911 A1 mod by Shiro and Doom to be not exactly accurate as it still features a skeleton external hammer, and like Tenurialrope brought up it's too big, I'm also skeptical of Deadpools .45 Auto Pistol.

[ARahimi]

Wait, are you editing the robots?

 

Isn't this mod supposed to just replace the ammo/weapons from vanilla?

 

I'm wondering what kind of patches this mod will require to work with older mods. I'm not a fan of every feature this mod intends to add, just being candid, no other way to say it.

I'd prefer a lite version, since I mostly just want to use the M107 that this mod has for it's custom animations which are amazingly done.

 

In fact with the TSR being released as it was, I really wish we could have the other weapons as well. Modders like myself tend to make their own balance patches and level lists, so I don't know what to expect on this mods release.

Edited June 13, 2020 by ARahimi

[antistar]

I certainly will agree that model scaling in games is not easy, I have very, very little experience in working with game's models,

but it does match up with you say there, and I've read similar things on other game/mod related forums.

 

Youch, yeah I think the Deliverer is scaled slightly too large ingame.

I'm pretty sure the downsized model of the "Battlefield 1 Animation Pack - Deliverer" mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/30928) is more accurate to the real thing than the vanilla version is.

(Admittedly, this is almost literally just from feel, looking at the model ingame, and comparing to other mod weapons that I feel pretty securely are scaled right. I can't exactly say anything definitive.)

 

I suppose that the fact that the mod's Glock has 10mm & .45 (.45 option for the Glock is in, right? I would suggest next time you update the weapon details list in the second post, to put the chambering options there as well.)

calibre options does help justify it maybe being sized very slightly too large (though/and the Glock in-hand in the ingame pics you've shown does look about right, so there's also that).

And the 1911 is a big pistol anyway so if it is scaled based on the Glock then it would probably not look that off (if at all) (I hope).

 

(This is what I'm talking about when I say that I'm petty. Most mod users would probably not care (or even notice) at all about minor details like this.)

Looking at the source files, what I did at the time (keeping in mind that the Glock was the very first thing I did for WARS) was match the Glock against Deliverer mainly so that its animations would fit. Fudging things a bit to fit existing animations is fairly common in this context - like Shanzyboo mentioned there with the Thompson, which for the most part was matched against War Daddy's animations and the vanilla SMG.

 

So in that sense it's just as well Deliverer is a bit bigger than an actual PPK, since if Deliverer was scaled appropriately, the Glock in WARS would ideally be a bit bigger than it is. ;)

 

When you don't have a really reliable reference to scale something against, getting the scale right becomes more difficult - but as you say, from eye-balling the Glock in-game, it looks to be a more or less plausible size to me.

 

The plan is for the Glock to be most commonly in 9x19mm, with options for 10mm Auto and .45 ACP, most likely. That'll be locked down once AmmoTweaks integration happens.

 

 

I full well see where you're coming from Tenurialrope3, I can be quite picky when it comes to accurate weapon scaling too as Antistar could point out when I inquired their thoughts on Novas Dragunov SVD in Russian Assault Pack, initially I thought it was too small but now that I've seen it ingame it seems too large lol. When it comes to the 1911 mods a lot of them can get away with it being they're customs, like Dan Wesson and Kimbers, which tend to be a little larger than your standard issue M1911A1, even the Thompson SMG Replacer Antistars done for WARS and the standalone which was released seems a little small to me, but that's due to the animations used and tweaked for it..sorry Antistar lol.

 

A question regarding the M1911 Antistar, is there going to be an option for a full on standard issue M1911A1 for WARS? I find the M1911 A1 mod by Shiro and Doom to be not exactly accurate as it still features a skeleton external hammer, and like Tenurialrope brought up it's too big, I'm also skeptical of Deadpools .45 Auto Pistol.

Yes, there will definitely be a standard "government" M1911 configuration available; that will be the default, really (that or the shorter barrel "officer's" version, just for the sake of progression). That will be basically as it appears here in the resource I'm using.

 

Note that it's specifically an M1911 rather than an M1911A1, though. I probably would have gone for an A1 given the choice, but I'm perfectly fine with this since it's such a beautiful resource, and there's not much difference between them anyway. Certainly not in a way that really affects what I'm doing in this mod.

 

 

Wait, are you editing the robots?

 

Isn't this mod supposed to just replace the ammo/weapons from vanilla?

 

I'm wondering what kind of patches this mod will require to work with older mods. I'm not a fan of every feature this mod intends to add, just being candid, no other way to say it.

I'd prefer a lite version, since I mostly just want to use the M107 that this mod has for it's custom animations which are amazingly done.

 

In fact with the TSR being released as it was, I really wish we could have the other weapons as well. Modders like myself tend to make their own balance patches and level lists, so I don't know what to expect on this mods release.

I'm editing the robot weapons, yes.

 

WARS is an overhaul for weapons and related combat mechanics generally; there's more info on that in the first couple of posts of the thread. The second post in particular has some answers on the other things you bring up there.

 

In short though; since WARS is an overhaul, certain existing mods would require a patch to play nicely with it - notably mods that add new weapons. I'll be writing a tutorial on how to add WARS support to mods like that, as well as making patches for a number of existing weapon mods myself.

[Shanzyboo]

Oooo, thank you for this Antistar :), can't wait to get to use it in game, it'll go nicely with Noniacs Thompson M1928A1 and Covadongas Remington 870, I like customs but I also like having access to standards and classics, kind a disappointed with Bethesda for not having it in the game, despite it taking place in the U.S.

 

About the Glocks I'm curious to how the animations play out, I have Z06Franks Glock 20 and it uses the deliverer animations, which I've replaced with Fiddlers deliverer reanimation replacer.

[antistar]

Yeah there's no way I wouldn't have "standard" parts available, to contrast against the giant Terminator version and the 1920s/30s gangster machine pistol and whatnot. ;)

 

I linked to this on the previous page, but you can see Hitman's Glock animations here.

[Shanzyboo]

Of course not, you're Antistar ;), ok I have to ask, maybe I'll learn something new from it but during those reload animations why pull the slide back like that additionally when the slide is locked in a back position already? It doesn't make sense to me.

[antistar]

My understanding is that it's just another way to release the slide lock and have the slide spring forwards again, bringing the gun back into battery. Someone might choose one way or the other based on what they're used to doing or are trained to do, or maybe depending on the pistol in question. E.g. the slide lock is pretty stiff on a particular pistol so you rack the slide rather than trying to hit the lever with your thumb or whatever.

 

Here's a random video talking about this sort of thing a bit.