Clarification on combined meshes, cell reset etc.

[chucksteel]

Every edit a mod makes is "dirty" then! They are overwrites so by your definition "Dirty"!

 

 

Do what you want... It's your call, but yes... ITMs, and using some trick to disable the previs system in game is the very definition of dirty edits, and it makes your mod dirty.

 

And again by this definition every mod is dirty because Beth built in the disable Pre-Combined meshes just so mods would work.

 

As for the tricks I use I fully admit they are not needed but, they are a concession to the PC players because every idiot who's computer just happened to come with a text editor thinks they know the best .ini edit to make the game perfect!

 

People, screaming "Occlusion issues"!

 

Me, I don't have the issue but I fixed that for you!

 

People, screaming "Sprint Bug"!

 

Me, I didn't have the issue until I had to fix "your occlusion issue" but, I fixed that for you!

 

I had to do this to keep the 90k people from saying the mod is bugged!

 

So I used Tricks!

 

Oddly enough on my PC with vanilla .ini's and on my XB1 none of the tricks are needed!

 

It's clear you understand how to generate new Pre-Combined and Pre-Vis, I looked at your mod hoping to find bugs on the surface but it was nice and clean. (I'll give you that!) Unfortunately you don't really understand what they mean for mod interaction and compatibility.

 

So, Mod "A" edits Cell "A" and Mod "B" Edits Cell "B", Looking at them in xEdit and by all we know from other games these mods are compatible because they don't touch the same cell Right?

 

No they are not because of several reasons.

 

First, if both mods regenerated Pre-Combined and Pre-Vis they CONFLICT because Pre-Vis works on a 3x3 grid which means the last mod to load WINS because the Pre-Vis overwrites the other mods Pre-Vis!

 

Second, Regardless of Pre-Combined, Pre-Vis, Disabled Pre-Combined Meshes or not if one or both of the mods edit the navemesh the cell and adjacent cells are flagged as edited meaning again, The last mod to load WINS!

 

( I had this exact issue with Subway runner) on paper and in xEdit it looked like no conflict (With or without Pre-Combined/Pre-Vis) but no matter the load order one mod overwrote the other because of the Pre-Combined being disabled or not disabled and the regenerated navemesh flagging the cells as edited.

 

I'm getting so tired of people who have read one or two threads on "Mod Cleaning" and "Dirty Edits" running around dropping the D-Bomb on people! A few weeks ago some new guy released there first mod. They were happy and excited and then came in the idiots! Screaming "Dirty" "Dirty" "Dirty Mod".

 

Yes The mod had a few "Deleted Ref's" BUT, no one took the time to look at why!

 

The "Deleted Ref's" were all also flagged as "Initially Disabled" so to me as a modder they were accidents. Yes they needed fixed but it was the persons first mod and there was no reason to go on the attack! No one would take the time to set ref's to "Initially disabled" then delete them would they? On top of all of that "IT WAS PERSONS FIRST MOD!" We all made mistakes on our first one!

 

Lastly, if I were to make the perfect "Clean" mod as you seem to think is needed then I wouldn't be able to also share it with XB1 (use it on my XB1) or god forbid port it to PS4 Because of file size and external assets!

[Trosski]

Of course I understand what it means for mod interaction. I have complained to Bethesda's guys endlessly for the decision to go with this system as it makes world editing such a pain. I have also tried to educate other modders on how to correctly build new data, and make compatibility mods.

 

It's not my fault that Sony is a group of D-bags that won't allow custom assets.

 

Personally I think it can all be blamed on the whole mod piracy fiasco, and DDProduction's fake XBone bricking video. Joke or no... it probably led to Sony saying f*** that s***.

 

I don't care about someone's first mod they have ever created, but leading someone into purposely creating these ITMs to trick the system into disabling a system meant to provide faster, and more stable rendering is imo bad advice.

And while your mod may be fine for the most part, because you know how to disable the precombine system...

 

How many mods do you think will be able to get away with that before serious issues start popping up? Before bloat from all the ITMs start causing instability? It might be fine if one or two mods in your library are made that way, but what happens when more and more people start making world edits to the same area?

 

When I first made my mod I didn't generate new precombine, and visibility data, and it made the areas I edited pretty much unplayable. Whenever the character would walk through a spot that had some reference that I had hidden, s*** would start flickering, and in some cases disappearing all together.

You may not notice it in your mod, if you don't edit areas that people normally store power armor, but I'm willing to bet that your mod still causes the cell reset bug. If I was to leave a piece of fully upgraded power armor in an area you modified, it would probably reset to it's default location, and configuration.

It may be fine for your mod, but the location he is trying to mod will have noticeable bugs if he doesn't generate precombine, and previs data.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Trosski

[chucksteel]

First of all The ITM I talked about in the Mod author and on the beth forum was ONLY A Test! I'm not advocating using them but, ITM's are really no different then any other edit we make in mods. They are a non edit the same as setting an object to "Initially Disabled"

 

I also edit Red Rocket cave cell which doesn't seem to cause any issues with The Red Rocket settlement and the "Cell Reset" issues.

 

The filtering you speak of is the "Occlusion Culling" and it does come form not having new Pre-Combined and Pre-Vis but, as I said running a vanilla ini or the mod on XB1 doesn't have the problem and I've tested the hell out of it.

 

Edit: and for a test I just took a set of PA and stripped it down to the frame, left it in one of my edited cells. Went to sanctuary and waited 20 days in game, when I went back it was still just the frame.

 

this is because Beth acknowledged the "Cell Reset" Bug and fixed it back in April.

[Thicketford]

It may be fine for your mod, but the location he is trying to mod will have noticeable bugs if he doesn't generate precombine, and previs data.

 

The mod I am making will be the only world-editing one I have installed. I take it at the very least, it won't do any harm to generate the pre-combine and pre-vis? I've tested the mod without generating anything, and I'm not seeing any visual bugs.

 

Also, I thought the cell reset bug had been fixed?

Edited December 11, 2016 by Thicketford

[Trosski]

I wasn't aware that the cell reset bug had been fixed. I must have missed those patch notes.

Well, it seems that if you aren't having any occlusion culling issues, then have at it, i guess.

[damanding]

Cell reset bug was fixed around the May timeframe.

[Trosski]

Just in case you liked my mod when you went looking for bugs, I updated my mod tonight to include scrappable Red Rocket pump arms.

[Thicketford]

I tested my mod without pre -combining and I was getting micro stutter when turning around near Red Rocket. I tested it again after pre-combining and the stutter was gone. It would seem in this case, that generating meshes and pre-vis improved performance.

[damanding]

I tested my mod without pre -combining and I was getting micro stutter when turning around near Red Rocket. I tested it again after pre-combining and the stutter was gone. It would seem in this case, that generating meshes and pre-vis improved performance.

That's actually the purpose of precombining and pre-vis, to improve performance. The challenge is compatibility between mods that do that for the same location.

[Trosski]

It's not a big challenge. if you have two mods that modify the same cell you would load them both in the CK with none set to active, and just generate new previs data, and save it as a ptach. it takes all of five minutes. I know that making one for every possible combination out there could potentially be an issue, but you really only need to worry about it if people are complaining about compatibility problems... Not to mention those can be made by third party users and uploaded as a patch mod since it won't contain any of the assets from either mod... just previs data.