A New Government in the Commonwealth

[PoorlyAged]

@AnvitOfWar, I too believe that the Brotherhood of Steel and the Minutemen will eventually be in a shooting war unless one or the other is destroyed. The Brotherhood of Steel has the firm belief that all technology belongs to them and they will eventually attempt to take some technological device by force. If the target is someone that the Minutemen are desirous to protect, the Minutemen and the Brotherhood of Steel will start killing each other. And when that happens it is a sad probability that the Brotherhood of Steel; with their superior technology, would prevail.

[TheSpaceShuttleChallenger]

I don't see a war between the Minutemen and the Brotherhood to be inevitable. They both have a lot to lose and not a hell of a lot to gain.

From the Minutemen's perspective: Literally all you want in this world is for settlements to be safe so that they can grow some tatos and dream some dreams. The Brotherhood of Steel is out patrolling the Commonwealth with their well-trained, well-equipped soldiers killing raiders and super mutants more efficiently than you ever could, and all they want in return is food to keep them going and the privilege of picking through ancient trash heaps in search of scrap parts that you barely have any use for. So maybe every once in a while you'll have to hand over some technology that you wanted to keep. You'll get over it. Because if you don't get over it, then you have to fight them. Did I mention that the BoS has a lot of well-trained, well-equipped soldiers? And an airship? And a Gundam that fires nukes? You might be able to take out the Prydwen with your artillery but even if you succeed you're going to take some very serious damage in return. So unless the Brotherhood begins seriously abusing your settlements to the point of kill-or-be-killed, it is very much worth it to keep them on your side.

From the Brotherhood's perspective: If Maxon is still running the show in the long term, then sure, there could be war because Maxon's an idiot. If it's any halfway sensible elder? Well, let's think about this. You're running an expeditionary force in a wasteland far from home. Your resources are stretched pretty thin but you do have, on your side, a bunch of guys that you don't have to train or provision who will voluntarily fight some of your battles for you and keep your supply lines happy. They also have artillery that can potentially blow your ship out of the sky. I would not alienate them unless I absolutely had to. If I felt that there might be conflict, my first plan would be to try to consolidate them under my command, my second plan would be to quietly undermine their resources so that they are too weak to challenge me, and my seventeenth plan would be to violently confront them.

There's a definite possibility for things to deteriorate, particularly if one faction gets their hands in the other faction's business (ie; Minutemen hoarding technology or BoS bothering the settlements.) But the ideal situation for both factions is coexistence. Their primary goals do not conflict and they have a lot of mutual enemies, and fighting between them could be potentially devastating for both sides. If I was a smart leader on either side, I would be willing to compromise quite a bit in order to maintain good relations.

[AnvilOfWar]

TheSpaceShuttleChallenger,

 

If you really think that the BoS are out for anyone other then themselves, I'd say that's pretty naive. I tend to view the games quests in such a way as to ascertain their true intent. And in no respect at all do the BoS offer any kind of support against raiders, there is not once single quest that takes the player against raiders in the entirety of Fallout 4. Collect Tech: Check, Escort Scribes for Tech: Check, Kill Mutants/Ferals/Synths: Check, Obtain food from local farms under -any- pretense needed: Check. Obtain them a nuclear stockpile: Check, Train one of their Squires: Check, in exactly zero quests in the whole of the game do they ask you to take down any raider strongholds. Some of the quests may lead to raider held locations, but that is not the target of the quest. That's pretty telling from the standard of: "Oh we care about the people of the Commonwealth" too which I laughed in Maxson's face. There is a staggering amount of collect stuff for THEM however, and very little on the actual help for others.

The Brotherhood is in the Commonwealth for two reasons, one their ideologically opposed to the Institute, and second to collect or -confiscate- any tech they can get. It's important to note that confiscate is the order of the day, so that AER9 a farmer or trader is packing? Better hand it over "local". Here in lies the rub, the Brotherhood feels entitled to ANY technology no matter who owns it, or how much they use it. If it's better then a rock or a spear, chances are the Brotherhood wants to get their hands on it. The Brotherhood under Maxson is even more of a hardliner then the Outcasts where in the Capital Wasteland. So a little "reading between the lines" isn't all that hard, after all Danse does make the point that the reactor the Prydwen is using to power the ship "came from a beached Aircraft carrier." Which the only beached aircraft carrier around was -Rivet city-. My theory is, given what we have seen from the brotherhood, do you think that Rivet city just -let them gut the source of power- for the settlement, without any issues? I doubt it. It's tech they wanted, and took it, and it would not surprise me in the least if the settlement was razed to the ground in the process to obtain it. My point is, the only people that the Brotherhood has ever cared about is the Brotherhood, the whole "protect mankind" thing is lip service at best. Since after all Lyons was actually doing the "help the locals" thing, and what did it get him, a group of his own troops outright rebelling, and now anytime Lyons is mentioned by any BoS trooper it's with disgust at his very actions. Sadly the Brotherhood (much like Bethesda) only sees things in black and white, where you'd say that you want them to get the Minutemen on their side or undermine them with tactics and finesse, at least Bethesda's writing on the issue I don't see them as a finesse faction at all. They are much too hopped up on their might makes right attitude and "all your tech are belong to us". ;)

I will say I have very much enjoyed this thread so far, there's quite a lot of good ideas on all sides. Cheers all. :)

[Moraelin]

Well, I think the question is: how much time can you buy for the Minutemen before the conflict?

 

I keep saying it, but the BOS has long forgot how to be an actual army. They have pretty much forgotten any team tactics, including elementary stuff like pin and flank. They have no fireteam organization.

 

They have no real organization beyond tactical level. Hell, they don't even carry radios or even pigeons like in WW1 to coordinate at any level beyond what you can shout to each other.

 

Hell, they pretty much have no chain of command. Yes, in theory they do, and it's even one of their basic tenets to not skip ranks, but they completely ignore that. I mean, in NV they actually need YOU to dig into their computer to even find out that they're supposed to HAVE a chain of command. Here, Maxon is personally giving a mission to you, while ignoring your commanding officer standing right next to you.

 

They are a loose collection of individual heroes, and a proper formation applying proper tactics wiped the floor with such hordes of individual heroes for as long as we have a recorded history.

 

And I'd also like to submit as evidence Brandis's mission. It's worth an epic, Picard-style facepalm for anyone who even heard of an army. They come completely unprepared, e.g., they don't even have power cores to use their armours past the insertion point. He leaves people behind, willy-nilly, even a wounded one, to bugger off to look for tech. Hell, one of them is supposed to guard the camp at the training yard for no discernible reason, but at no point does the plan seem to be to actually return to her and that camp. When things go pear shaped, he doesn't return to that camp or anything. Essentially he just abandoned that knight, rather than stop looking for tech. Sorry, but with officers like that, they have a big problem.

 

So, anyway, at the moment Nate is the only living human who actually remembers how an army is supposed to work. Like, at all. And just to qualify that, sure, there are some ghouls and supermutants that were in the army before the war, but frankly, the BOS ain't gonna listen to them. I mean, even Lyon's "good" knights were taking pot-shots at the civilized ghouls in the history museum in DC.

 

Given a couple of years to drill the Minutemen into a proper army -- and give them radios fer Atom's sake -- and more crucially to build an economy to support them, I do believe that you could turn them into something that could blitzkrieg the BOS into oblivion.

 

So that is the question: could you keep the peace for that long? Could be a gamble.

[Fkemman11]

Yeah. I agree about the BOS there Moraelin. It always seemed funny to me that Riley's Rangers in FO3 had a proper military squad formation; Riley- leader ( tactical officer), Brick (heavy weapons), Donovan (technician) , Butcher (field medic), Cleo (fire team) and that the BOS is never shown to have even this level of organization even at the squad level. I mean even the StuperMutants are somewhat organized; suicide bomber (duh), hounds (close-quarters), SM skirmisher, and then usually a few basic riflemen and a heavy gunner. Why Beth didn't try to show a bit more tactical organization with the BOS or other groups is beyond me. My guess is that they were going for the more "gamey" side to be a hero.

 

As often as I see my people cross right in front of me in a fire-fight its a wonder that most don't die from friendly- fire. :confused:

[Moraelin]

I don't think it's just Beth. NV was made by some of the original team that made FO1 and FO2, and those too had you dig into the BOS computer because even the commander of the Knights had forgotten that they're supposed to have a chain of command. Or find it anything wrong with the fact that he doesn't know where the <bleep> his knights are, because they were assigned suicide missions without his knowledge. I mean, literally, he tells you point blank that he can't find any valid objection to raise to how the Elder runs things.

 

And they still have no radios there, since you get a mission to collect reports from their scouts. Sure, let's send a complete stranger to relay the intel, because we can't strap a frikken HAM radio to the back of a power armour.

 

And even there they don't seem to have any real discipline. I mean, what with nobody objecting to, say, Veronica deciding to bugger off with some random guy instead of handling their supplies like she was supposed to. As long as she doesn't come up with crazy ideas like helping the wastelanders, sure, go off in search of a formal dress. Hell, go give tech you found (the green vault, for example) to the NCR. Give control of Helios One to the NCR, never mind that the BOS chapter was nearly wiped out trying to prevent that. It's not like anyone will reprimand her for it.

 

I think really they're supposed to be a bunch of guys playing knights in shiny armour, rather than an actual proper armoy.

[snapper69]

If it came down to it, I have a nice stockpile of Fat Men (the weapon, not people like me) and ammo plus artillery and rocket launchers. Plus I could put together a tidy force equipped with power armour.

 

I would like to see a scenario where each settlement had an "area of influence" that it controlled and where none of the ne'er do wells could set up a camp. That way I could limit their influence in the Commonwealth and hopefully destroy them completely and take back the Commonwealth. It wouldn't be a government in the usual sense, more a group of settlements looking out for each others common interest and protected by the Minutemen.

[PoorlyAged]

I agree with AnvilOfWar and his assessment of the Brotherhood of Steel. They have only one priority. Get the Technology. Everything else is secondary, tertiary, or not even on the list. Where I believe I depart from AnvilOfWar's view is that I do not see the Brotherhood of Steel as a military organization.

 

From my perspective the Brotherhood of Steel is a religious organization, along the lines of the of medieval knights. They are zealots on a mission to save the world from the evils of technology and they believe that this mission gives then some 'higher' authority. They believe that they alone have the intelligence and thus the right to own, use and control technology. They believe that anyone "not bound by steel" is beneath them and these "savages" and "outsiders" can be used or killed with impunity when they interfere with their primary objective. The Brotherhood of Steel has a Calling and everyone who does not share this Calling is unworthy of protection by the Brotherhood of Steel. Teagan in Fallout 4 alludes to the Calling when he says "Those farmers don't know how good they have it. They aren't risking their lives for the greater good".

 

And that theological focus accounts for the Brotherhood of Steel's lack of military training and organization. In Fallout 4 the combat training is a one-on-one session and training success is based solely on the observation skills of the trainee and has no followup to ensure that the correct lessons where learned. There was classroom training presented in Fallout New Vegas but if you listened to the lessons being presented those lessons were on science and Technology and not military tactics. One only need look at how the Brotherhood of Steel deploys their people and how they plan their logistical support to know that the Brotherhood of Steel is not a military organization. The brotherhood of Steel believes in their superior technology and that said technology should be enough to protect them from savages. Consequently, military training is not necessary. Veronica; in Fallout New Vegas, alluded to this when she said "Used to be that all you needed to get your way was a suit of power armor and a laser rifle".

 

And that lack of support is my final point. Every military organization in the world know that "an army marches on it's stomach". The Brotherhood of Steel has a huge inventory of technology, but no supply inventory that contains food and water. Given that the Brotherhood of Steel has no stockpile of food to supply their people in the field, it is obvious that the Brotherhood of Steel expects their people who are dispatched to the field to secure their own supplies. The Brotherhood of Steel is required to "forage liberally" from their current location for food. Veronica in Fallout New Vegas was one such scavenger. In Fallout 4, in his efforts to get food Teagan directs the player to "get their <referring to the farmers> cooperation by any means necessary", demonstrating that the Brotherhood of Steel is not very scrupulous in their interpretation of "forage liberally".

 

So the Brotherhood of Steel is not a military organization, simply because they do not think like one. My interpretation of the evidence leads me to believe they are a religious cult.

[kingwilfre16]

 

So the Brotherhood of Steel is not a military organization, simply because they do not think like one. My interpretation of the evidence leads me to believe they are a religious cult.

Praise Xenu

[CiderMuffin]

The Brotherhood is designed after actual Christian monastic orders like the Knights of Rhodes, Templars, Teutonic etc etc. The Paladins act as knights who protected pilgrims and fought to reclaim the holy land and artifacts while the Scribes act as the monks who guided the crusaders in all things spiritual and wrote down stuff like religious texts, the history of the order, did the financial work, maintained stuff and everything else.

 

The Brotherhood is a military order built around the structure of the pre-war US military but also adopted monastic order qualities.