59 replies to this topic

[JimmyRJump]

I know this is an old post and I'm late to the party but thought I'd leave instructions for anyone else having this problem that might stumble onto this  thread looking for a result. 

 

NMM keeps all of the plugins inside of a text file which is located in the following directory path.

C:\Users\"user name"\AppData\Local\Fallout4\Plugins.txt

 

You can open of this file with notepad and manually move the order you like, save the file and you're done.  I use notepad ++ which is a free download.

You're a couple of years late with that explanation.  NMM is meanwhile at version 0.71.1 and has long since left behind any problems with plugin load order swapping and skse64 files.

[cmaesing]

Ok, I have read (not only in this thread, but also on Github ticket comments etc.) that supposedly NMM 0.71.2 has left behind any problems with plugin load orders.

 

However, my issue is with genuine ESL files (not ESPs tagged as ESLs) in Skyrim SE: NMM will always - even after having manually adjusted the plugin.txt file - move all genuine ESL files right to the bottom of all ESM files (i.e. ahead of the very first ESP file) - where they shouldn't belong.

 

NMM also prevents me from manually moving these genuine ESL files down in the load order. None of these ESL files have any ESP masters - only the default ESMs.

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

https://imgur.com/MUg8LTK

 

=====

 

ADDENDUM:
 

Have tempered with NMM 65.3 and 65.11 - both don't resolve the issue for me. My workaround for now will be to use as few ESLs as possible. And for those few mods which only come with ESLs, I will have to manually adjust the load order in the plugin.txt file after each NMM closure.

 

Interestingly enough, SSEEdit 4.0.3 will also list these ESLs as ESMs - and show them as NMM does between the last genuine ESM and the very first ESP file (and not per the manually adjusted plugin.txt). SSEEdit does not, however, change the load order: Tthe ESLs remain after SEEdit usage where I manually put them in the plugin.txt.

 

Cheers!

[JimmyRJump]

Ok, I have read (not only in this thread, but also on Github ticket comments etc.) that supposedly NMM 0.71.2 has left behind any problems with plugin load orders.

 

However, my issue is with genuine ESL files (not ESPs tagged as ESLs) in Skyrim SE: NMM will always - even after having manually adjusted the plugin.txt file - move all genuine ESL files right to the bottom of all ESM files (i.e. ahead of the very first ESP file) - where they shouldn't belong.

 

NMM also prevents me from manually moving these genuine ESL files down in the load order. None of these ESL files have any ESP masters - only the default ESMs.

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

https://imgur.com/MUg8LTK

 

=====

 

ADDENDUM:
 

Have tempered with NMM 65.3 and 65.11 - both don't resolve the issue for me. My workaround for now will be to use as few ESLs as possible. And for those few mods which only come with ESLs, I will have to manually adjust the load order in the plugin.txt file after each NMM closure.

 

Interestingly enough, SSEEdit 4.0.3 will also list these ESLs as ESMs - and show them as NMM does between the last genuine ESM and the very first ESP file (and not per the manually adjusted plugin.txt). SSEEdit does not, however, change the load order: Tthe ESLs remain after SEEdit usage where I manually put them in the plugin.txt.

 

Cheers!

Proper esl plugs are, despite their 'lightness', treated as masters and are therefor loaded right after esm files but before esp files.  That's also why you should never convert an esp to esl that is depending on other regular mods because the esl will be loaded before the esp it depends on.

 

Esl plugs were developed for the CreationClub of Fallout 4 and Skyrim SE because when the CC was introduced, Bethesda feared that die-hard gamers would be sitting close to the esp limit and their CC content wouldn't sell to the cobblestones.  So, they came up with plugins that didn't count towards total installed plugins.  The intention was for esl mods to be small and independent with a max of 2088 formIDs in it.  Fiddling with load order texts to ad esl mods amongst the regular esp mods will result in crashes.  It's like adding an esm at the bottom of the load order.  It doesn't work because the esl files have always been intended to be treated as master files and adding them elsewhere than was intended is asking for problems.

 

If you want to change an esp into a 'light' esp, open xEdit, deselect all plugins; double-click on the mod you want to change, in the left panel right-click on the mod you want to change and select "CompactFormIDsForEsl", click "OK" on the next pop-ups and wait for xEdit to finish.  Then select the "View" tab (bottom right) in xEdit and double click the space next to "Record Flags" and select "esl" from the roll-out menu.  Close xEdit (xEdit will make a back-up of the plug) and you'll have an esp that is flagged as 'light' which won't count towards total installed plugins and which will be sitting amongst the regular esp plugs.  Mods that have more than the allowed FormID entries will not be converted.

 

Changing an esp into one flagged as 'light' will have no consequences for other esp mods that depend on it, though it is not recommended doing this in a game that had the mod already in it, except when that mod hasn't been used yet (like a mod that changes a village and you haven't been there yet, or one that adds clothing/armour/weaponry and you haven't 'discovered/smithed/bought the items yet).  For mods that add items that you have meanwhile in your possession, changing the esp into a 'light' version won't break the game, but you'll lose the items and will have to get them again.

[Bernt]

OK - I'll jump on this thread. I have recently learned about putting an .esl flag on suitable .esp's using SSEEdit. I've begun to - a few at atime- to put the flag on on some of my .esp's. And it works well. My game runs stable and I don't seem to have lost anything.

But...... NMM is not happy. It tells me - in bright red- that I am above the limit. 257 active. Is there any way that I can make it count the .esl flagged files? Or is that a manual job?

Another thing is - and yes Jimmy, I've read some of your answers    Can I turn some simple .esp's into pure .esl's with no consequences? I'm thinking about files like a Piper makeover and other files with no dependencies - up or down.

[JimmyRJump]

OK - I'll jump on this thread. I have recently learned about putting an .esl flag on suitable .esp's using SSEEdit. I've begun to - a few at atime- to put the flag on on some of my .esp's. And it works well. My game runs stable and I don't seem to have lost anything.

But...... NMM is not happy. It tells me - in bright red- that I am above the limit. 257 active. Is there any way that I can make it count the .esl flagged files? Or is that a manual job?

Another thing is - and yes Jimmy, I've read some of your answers    Can I turn some simple .esp's into pure .esl's with no consequences? I'm thinking about files like a Piper makeover and other files with no dependencies - up or down.

The number in red is the total amount of plugins you have, including esl and esp flagged as esl.  For the 'real' amount that countst towards the 255 limit, you need to scroll down to the bottom of the plugins tab in NMM.  sadly, there's no way (that I know of) that allows you to only see the amount of esl/light plugins.  Close an eye and use a well aimed index finger is the only option.  Or do the math.  257 minus the amount on the plugins tab.

 

I've been busy myself with a new load for FO4.  Got 429 plugins total of which 223 are regular esp/esm plugs   And I'm not done yet

[waspdeath]

It definitely hasn't left Load Order sorting problems behind. I can post of a video right now of NMM not letting me move any plugins, it just randomly decided I can't rearrange them anymore.

 

Anyway I have no choice but to move on to something else. When you search for support for this issue, it's basically swept under a rug as far as I can see. "It was fixed in 65.43.4.45., shut up about it!"

 

Edit: it was from ESL plugins I made with xEdit. Guess those are no good, won't even bother asking.

Edited by waspdeath, 17 August 2020 - 12:06 PM.

[JimmyRJump]

It definitely hasn't left Load Order sorting problems behind. I can post of a video right now of NMM not letting me move any plugins, it just randomly decided I can't rearrange them anymore.

 

Anyway I have no choice but to move on to something else. When you search for support for this issue, it's basically swept under a rug as far as I can see. "It was fixed in 65.43.4.45., shut up about it!"

 

Edit: it was from ESL plugins I made with xEdit. Guess those are no good, won't even bother asking.

You cannot move ESL plugins around.  That is to say, you can, but not amongst the regular esp files.  Has nothing to do with whatever version of NMM but with the load order restrictions by the game itself.  If you have a problem with too many plugins and you need to convert some esp files, then turn them into 'false' ESL plugs by only changing the file header to ESL, that way, the mod will keep the 'esp' extension (and can be loaded between regular esp files) but won't count towards total amount of plugins.

[Blinxys]

JimmyRJump, you are SO on it! Have been getting up to speed thrashing around in xedit for FO4, and just wanted to redirect peeps Away from eslFE(s) as a final solution to load order.

 

Merging mods is where it's at from my observation(s).

 

The 256 is still mathematically applicable (it's a hexadecimal thing 16x16=256 the first two numbers of the 8 digit form ids from what I can follow). Now i am pretty new to this all. But by my understanding (accepting corrections where applicable), fallout4.esm takes [email protected], and ALL esls take another [email protected] (FE 000-FFF, sort of a diverted hook???) leaving 254 "slots".  That has been my target and goal. Exceeding that number CAN be done but can't figure out how based on the math, so I'm sticking to this based on something MatortheEternal alluded to about internal engine limits.

 

At any rate, that is why my $0.02 worth is to "merge those plugins", but wisely.

Currently have 345 Installed Mods, 286 Total Plugins, but 254 "Active Plugins" According to NMM and that includes Esls.

You can find the approximate number of Esls installed by loading NMM, clicking on the plugins tab, and looking at the last "Index Number" since it excludes ESLs and disabled ESP/ESMs.

In my case that is 221, subtract that number from Active Plugins (254-221) = 33 [Esl]s (which looks to be about right at a glance, give or take a few disabled ESPs).

 

ESLs suck at overwriting, since they come in too early, and htey all hang in 1 load slot.

But merging mods gives you the results you want without having override or patch. Or when you do it's half sorted out already.

 

The mod manager really doesn't matter much, it is just a tool mostly for tracking files, and automating the LO rewriting.

 

NMM gets a little screwy but no worse than any other MM from what I can tell.

 

GENERAL HELP WITH NMM

 

Don't leave NMM open for a long time unattended, save profiles, close and reopen frequently. (Think that's a windows idle memory cleanup problem).

 

ALWAYS install from local files AKA "Manual" to save frustration. (Updating is overrated- if your stuff works already).

 

Always use the green check mark on the left not "Right-Click->Install" (don't know why that don't always work right but there, I said it).

 

Keep a Download Archive APART the from folder you are installing From.

(Always install from that Same folder).

 

(Unless mod is a merged plugin from Merge-Plugins program):

If NMM ever wants to overwrite files in the "Virtual Directory" let it.

Then uninstall the mod, open NMM's "Virtual Install" folder, delete the new plugin folder it created, close and reopen NMM, then reinstall the mod. Same applies to reinstalls that get stuck/messed. Easy Breezy.

 

Uninstall/Delete old version THEN install updated mods.

 

Uninstall/Delete THEN install again has more exacting results than RIght-Click->Reinstall.

 

I made a few tools short of real mods that help NMM/Fallout 4 function better:

 

Make a text file named meta.ini zip it, and install it through NMM. Then if any mod wants to overwrite it say "No".

That way NMM is only ever tracking one mod for that file, (and it's benign).

If you screw up and one gets past you just reinstall the dummy mod.

 

Also made batch files that delete desktop.ini's in all sub-directories, since I have seen them sneak in with mods and the game will read those of it's own accord resulting in... ?

Put this in a *.bat file and drop it in your game root directory:

"DesktopIniRemover.bat"

@echo off
echo About to delete all desktop ini files in this directory and subdirectories.
echo Add /q to command line to delete without confirmation.
echo press "Ctrl+C" to Cancel or Enter to Continue...
@pause
echo seeking out vagrant desktop.ini files...
del /s /f ".\desktop.ini"
echo Command executed as requested!
echo All "desktop.ini" files deleted from directory and all subdirectories.
echo Close window to Exit.
pause

Just double-click on it and it goes...
Hope that helps someone.

 

Cheers!

[JimmyRJump]

I did just the contrary and threw out all my merged plugins and converted the individual plugs to esp light.  The origins of FO4 are 32-bits, hence the cap of 256 plugins.  One is kept for back-up purposes by the game, which leaves 255 usable slots for esp/esm plugs.

 

I now have 677 mods installed in FO4, 464 of which have a plugin.  Of those, 239 are regular esp/esm.  The rest are esl or light esp.

[Blinxys]

Ok cool! so what you have done is more apparent through that revelation.

You are indeed still observing the 255 cap in your own regard (239)esp/esm, i.e. FF nnn. Where nnn(FFF) is 4095 the theoretical maximum forms allowed for all esl/espFEs.

 

Personally i'd go nitzo with so many mods trying to keep track, the conflicts/redundancy, some are so derned tiny for a whole slot, and the load order issues...  Sheesh! (NM, i just wouldn't enjoy that).   

 

As of today I am working toward building merges to make BA2s for all these loose files. Which is more motivation to wad up the esps, as BA2s are supposed to enhance performance considerably, same for skyrim equivalents (but not as much benefit).

 

In doing so I am learning a lot about the construction/content/methods of mods, can tweak the settings and overwrites (that I understand), and corral their files into esp/ba2 blobs in the end. (textures, sounds, scripts, meshes).

 

I simply do not know enough of the ins and outs to "lighten" specific dependencies to esl, if I did, I think I would already be writing my own version of these mods. Perhaps merging is just preparation/education.

 

In the end, I know that you know, that I know what you are doing, but just replying here to spell it out for those trying to work it all out.

There is still a 255 cap that should be observed with reverence, your way or mine.

 

Thanks you much JimmyRJump, I read your posts frequently and have reaped much from your acorns of wisdom.