Thoughts on "Lazy" Mod Users?

[tm2dragon]

There are a lot of words for us. "Lurkers" is probably the most prominent, and also one of the nicest. I've seen "Stupid" and "Lazy" tossed around too, but I like to think that's only from some of the more toxic members of the community. We come in many flavors, but there are a few ways in particular where we stick out:

We ask questions with "obvious" answers. We rarely if ever post anything very constructive. We obviously have little knowledge about computers or modding, even though we may have been members for years. We often seem to post on the wrong forums (I may be doing so now), and seem ignorant of forum protocol. We ask for mods to be more user-friendly, when a basic understanding of modding could get us through most problems. We ask for mod authors to add features that would be far too much work (or even impossible), because we don't understand how the game system works and what can or can't be easily done with it. Generally, we just tend to keep asking questions and making stupid requests, wanting others to do the work for us.

 

Notice that I said "US" up there. See, I'm fully aware that I fall into this category! Some may call me and others like myself "leeches".......yet for a large part, I've found that people are helpful and patient, willing to help guide us through our ignorance.

 

I'd like a discussion to take place here, hopefully with input from both sides. I'd like to hear the opinions of experienced mods and mod users, and those of us who are lower on the spectrum. Are we a burden on the community, or just folks who needed a little extra help? Should we be making a harder effort to educate ourselves, or offering other ways to contribute? Should we need to contribute AT ALL, or just enjoy the mods and the community as is?

 

I have a few bits of perspective from the "dumb" side of things, and feel like sharing them may help a bit. I'm a high functioning Autist, and very often don't realize that what I'm posting may be rude or aggravating (this topic could very well be both, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'm not making an ass of myself right now). I also have a rather severe learning disability, and find it near impossible to learn new skills unless I'm engaging with a person one-on-one. This doesn't really translate well online, and trying to power through and take in the new information through extensive reading or how-to videos is nerve-wracking and incredibly frustrating. Because of this, I learned what I could on my own, got JUST skilled enough to set up a mod manager and walk myself through the steps needed to add mods to the game through the said manager, and try my best to use the more complicated stuff like Bodyslide or FNIS. When I don't understand something or get stuck, I pop on the forum and ASK. I bombard the forums with questions, whether starting my own threads for broader ones or popping into specific forums for issues with specific mods. 90% of what I post on forums is requesting for help.....in essence, asking for others to do the footwork I have so much trouble with.........also, I'm just kind of generally lazy and distractable. ^_^;

 

Still, I've started to feel guilty for this behavior, and am trying to find my own ways to contribute. Right now, I'm doing so by attempting to start threads where folks can get together and talk through issues, or explore new ideas. It doesn't always work, and in fact has come back to bite me a couple times, but I'm going to try it for a bit longer, before trying other things (I'm thinking of offering myself as a proofreader for mod descriptions, especially for folks for whom English is a second language).

 

I'd like to hear from the rest of you. How to the modders feel about the folks who come to them with obvious questions? How do the experienced users feel about forum-goers that are perpetually less-skilled? How do the less experienced users feel about being almost overwhelmed by computer issues they can't seem to grasp? How do the folks who just don't want to put in the time necessary to pick up all these new skills feel about being members of a forum with so many more experienced folks? We're all very different types of people on these forums, and I think understanding eachother better could be both educational, and a neat bonding experience.

 

If you feel like sharing your opinions, feel free to do so! Just keep it civil, and remember that we're all here for the same reason: We love Fallout, and we love Mods! We just go about it differently. ( ;

Edited January 22, 2018 by tm2dragon

[jkruse05]

To start, on asking for help; there is never anything wrong with asking for help, but from an educational perspective (and I mean this professionally, as well as in this context, I used to be a teacher and worked with several students such as yourself) the way you ask for help is just as important as what you are asking about. It's okay to ask for help on small things (or bog things, of course), but users trying to make their own mods should never be asking for someone else to do it for them, rather, to grow as a creator, and to expand their understanding of how it all works in the first place, they should be asking how to do it (this is a common issue in modern education, but that's a discussion for another topic). Even if you don't fully learn how to do it, and all you get out of the answer is an understanding of how much work people have to put into mods, that's okay. It builds a knowledge of what is possible and an appreciation for the work of others.

 

Unfortunately, these questions often go without being answered. I usually try to help when I can, but I have a specific area of knowledge and am still learning myself, so I can't answer everything. What a lot of creators don't get is that it's not always that simple to 'just learn it yourself'. I've taken college level classes in a couple different coding languages, and I still can't put a program or script together for s***. My brain just doesn't fit the parts together properly. I miss little, important details, and can end up spending hours trying to figure out why something doesn't work. By the time it does I usually don't feel like working on it anymore. That's something I would ask for help on, or put in a mod request for something more complex. However, by looking at what scripts are and have been used for I've built a basic understanding of what may be possible.

 

This brings me to mod requests. Again, there is nothing wrong with requesting a mod. What is important is, again, how you ask. Requesting a mod is not "someone make this for me," requesting a mod is "I have a cool idea, is anyone interested in making it?" The other important aspect is considering what you've seen in mods and in the game before. Have you seen something similar? If yes, then your idea is probably doable. Have you seen systems within the game that might be changed to work for your mod? If yes, then outline how you think it could work. If you have no reference or basis for how your requested mod is going to work, chances are that it isn't. Try seeing if there is something similar for an older game, like Skyrim. If so, then someone might be able to make it happen. Make sure you mention and link that other mod in your request. This is a mod request I wrote some time ago, I feel like it is a decent example of how to ask, even if nobody responded. If you get a response saying that you can easily do it yourself, don't get defensive, ask if they can link you to a good tutorial, or write down detailed instructions so that you actually can try to do it yourself. Finally, before requesting a mod, exhaust every search option you have in finding if it already exists, or something close enough to satisfy your needs. Never post a mod request with the expectation that it will be fulfilled. Think of it as adding to the list of creative ideas for people to draw from.

 

My final note, I do feel that mod users should all educate themselves on at least one thing; installing mods and file structure. I know, it sounds like two things, but they are intrinsically linked. The most common 'issue' I see on mod pages is that it 'just doesn't work'. More often than not that is due to something wrong with the installation, whether because mods have not been properly enabled, or because the mod was installed to the wrong folder. Please try re-downloading and re-installing before making that complaint. Every mod user should experience manual installation a few times just to build a basic understanding of which files go where.

Edited January 23, 2018 by jkruse05

[tm2dragon]

To start, on asking for help; there is never anything wrong with asking for help, but from an educational perspective (and I mean this professionally, as well as in this context, I used to be a teacher and worked with several students such as yourself) the way you ask for help is just as important as what you are asking about. It's okay to ask for help on small things (or bog things, of course), but users trying to make their own mods should never be asking for someone else to do it for them, rather, to grow as a creator, and to expand their understanding of how it all works in the first place, they should be asking how to do it (this is a common issue in modern education, but that's a discussion for another topic). Even if you don't fully learn how to do it, and all you get out of the answer is an understanding of how much work people have to put into mods, that's okay. It builds a knowledge of what is possible and an appreciation for the work of others.

 

Unfortunately, these questions often go without being answered. I usually try to help when I can, but I have a specific area of knowledge and am still learning myself, so I can't answer everything. What a lot of creators don't get is that it's not always that simple to 'just learn it yourself'. I've taken college level classes in a couple different coding languages, and I still can't put a program or script together for s***. My brain just doesn't fit the parts together properly. I miss little, important details, and can end up spending hours trying to figure out why something doesn't work. By the time it does I usually don't feel like working on it anymore. That's something I would ask for help on, or put in a mod request for something more complex. However, by looking at what scripts are and have been used for I've built a basic understanding of what may be possible.

 

This brings me to mod requests. Again, there is nothing wrong with requesting a mod. What is important is, again, how you ask. Requesting a mod is not "someone make this for me," requesting a mod is "I have a cool idea, is anyone interested in making it?" The other important aspect is considering what you've seen in mods and in the game before. Have you seen something similar? If yes, then your idea is probably doable. Have you seen systems within the game that might be changed to work for your mod? If yes, then outline how you think it could work. If you have no reference or basis for how your requested mod is going to work, chances are that it isn't. Try seeing if there is something similar for an older game, like Skyrim. If so, then someone might be able to make it happen. Make sure you mention and link that other mod in your request. This is a mod request I wrote some time ago, I feel like it is a decent example of how to ask, even if nobody responded. If you get a response saying that you can easily do it yourself, don't get defensive, ask if they can link you to a good tutorial, or write down detailed instructions so that you actually can try to do it yourself. Finally, before requesting a mod, exhaust every search option you have in finding if it already exists, or something close enough to satisfy your needs. Never post a mod request with the expectation that it will be fulfilled. Think of it as adding to the list of creative ideas for people to draw from.

 

My final note, I do feel that mod users should all educate themselves on at least one thing; installing mods and file structure. I know, it sounds like two things, but they are intrinsically linked. The most common 'issue' I see on mod pages is that it 'just doesn't work'. More often than not that is due to something wrong with the installation, whether because mods have not been properly enabled, or because the mod was installed to the wrong folder. Please try re-downloading and re-installing before making that complaint. Every mod user should experience manual installation a few times just to build a basic understanding of which files go where.

Good points all around! I especially like the idea doing at least a few manual installations. I haven't done much of that myself, and probably SHOULD give it a few more tries. Something as simple as knowing where certain files go can lead to learning WHY they go there, which could lay some groundwork for understanding just what it is that a mod is altering. Sometimes just doing an action a few times, even if you don't understand why or how, is enough to give you a bit of insight that you can build upon later. I'll be sure to install my first few mods on my next Skyrim run manually! I'm using a mod instillation guide for my next Fallout 4 playthrough, so can't afford to experiment there. ^_^; Skyrim is more for practice while I wait for the guide I'm interested in to grow a bit.

 

Yeah, the honest truth is, not everyone can connect the dots the way others can. I can enjoy "Doctor Who", and the concepts like time paradoxes and one time traveler meeting another before that traveler meets them don't confuse me in the slightest. It's as clear to day as me how that time-travel stuff works, because my brain is just WIRED that way. My Mom, on the other hand, is totally incapable of understanding how being a time traveler means you can hang out with three other versions of yourself from different points in your life at the same time. Heck, she can't understand MOST of the things in that show, even the simpler stuff. That's not because she's stupid, she's got a freaking MASTERS degree and is easily one of the most intelligent people I've ever known. She just isn't wired in a way that understands things like gravitational pull and temporal mechanics (I tried explaining how tides work for 20 minutes yesterday......by the end she understood that the ocean goes in and out, and the moon is a thing that goes around the earth......so yeah).

 

There are people on either end of the spectrum, experts and "n00bs", that interact brilliantly or behave childishly. Experts range from ultra-friendly and helpful to "get good dumbass", while the less informed range from polity inquiring and respectful to entitled and unappreciative. Thankfully, most of the folks you run across here are on the friendlier side. I've received disgruntled responses from a mod author or two and been totally ignored a few times, but usually I find that if I ask a question nicely, and am appreciative for the help I get in response, everything works out peachy.

[chucksteel]

Hold the phone! your trying to tell me that the earth isn't flat? Not buying it! :dance:

 

But, Seriously, Respect is the key! doesn't make a difference if your a noob, a console player or whatnot! You treat people like people and in most cases they will also treat you like people! I enjoy the banter and the conversations about games that I can have here and even on Beth.net. I understand that not all console players are entitled jerk offs and it can be quite fun to toss ideas around.

[Tylersteinfeldt01]

As a long time mod user and mod author I can attest to the fact there are many issues that can be solved with trial and error as well as a good amount of googling. Many mod authors seem willing to help, but in my experience the forums only help if you know what you're looking for. A lot of the time the questions have already been asked, but in the event you can't find what you're looking for don't expect anyone to reply to your posts. Maybe life has hardened me, but generally I get the feeling nobody cares whether or not you further your education on any subject here. Several times I've posted honest questions seeking answers to issues that I've ran into modding and creating mods to further my knowledge and skills, only to have my thread read and left empty. TO SOME OF US THE ANSWER ARE NOT OBVIOUS. I don't know if there's others like me, searching the internet tirelessly before breaking down and posting in the forums. . . I don't want anyone to do it for me, I want to learn, but the sad reality is, very few care if you want to learn. Very few give even less than two sh**s about the fact you have good ideas (even small ideas can be good). Nobody cares. It's really sad.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Tylersteinfeldt01

[BigDaddyRat]

Everyone here has made good points, in my opinion (if that even matters). We have a game here that offers great opportunities to create game play in any way we like, as immersive as is possible, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, as far out and imaginative as we can. I fall into the immersive end of the line, trying to make my character and style of play as immersive and true to life as I can, with what is available on the web as far as mods go. I search for the most reality based weapons, clothing, and living accommodations that I can find to add to my style of play. To that end, there are many mod possibilities that arise, and I only wish I had the skills to make them, but at 61, I don't see that happening, as my ability to learn new things has diminished. It took me some time, but by deconstructing mod postings and kind of reverse engineering, I learned what to place where in my files to manually set up a mod, although I still have a multitude of problems with some. I agree with tm2dragon that some people are just not wired for certain subjects, hence the need to ask those who are. I have asked many questions here in the forums and only a slim number have been answered. For the most part, many of my questions have had to do with load order, which I still don't understand. I have tried several suggested guidelines for ordering, which only resulted in the game not loading period. I have since reverted to the principle of adding mods in the order in which I need them for the game (starting with main character mods, weapons, clothing, etc and then as I need them, the construction mods and game play altering mods) which has, to a point worked for me in the result that the game will load and I can play. Could I have expressed my negative opinion of those whose guidelines I tried and did not work? Absolutely. Have I done so? No, and it would serve no purpose to do it. I genuinely only ask questions if I cannot fix the problem myself, and if I receive an answer, cool. Have I gone off the deep end because I didn't get a reply? Nope. It all boils down to maturity and respect for each of us here,as we all have had problems and needed help at one point or another. So if I post with suggestions about mods I'd like to see, please understand that if I could, I would be ecstatic to be able to do it, but in the end, I just don't see myself learning the skills to do it.

Ok, grey haired rambling and muttering over. Back to our program already in progress.

[jcdenton2012]

My complaint is when the following exact scenario happens.

 

"X-mod I downloaded doesn't work. Here is my long list of 150+ mods. Make it work for me."

 

Do you honestly expect me to do that for you? You do realize that it could be anything? You also didn't give any clues as to how your game isn't working. You just dumped a huge problem on everyone and told them to fix it for you. I'm willing to help, but you need to give me something to go on for Christs sake. I'm a modder not a Starfleet Engineer!!

[wanderer3292]

As a long time mod user and mod author I can attest to the fact there are many issues that can be solved with trial and error as well as a good amount of googling. Many mod authors seem willing to help, but in my experience the forums only help if you know what you're looking for. A lot of the time the questions have already been asked, but in the event you can't find what you're looking for don't expect anyone to reply to your posts. Maybe life has hardened me, but generally I get the feeling nobody cares whether or not you further your education on any subject here. Several times I've posted honest questions seeking answers to issues that I've ran into modding and creating mods to further my knowledge and skills, only to have my thread read and left empty. TO SOME OF US THE ANSWER ARE NOT OBVIOUS. I don't know if there's others like me, searching the internet tirelessly before breaking down and posting in the forums. . . I don't want anyone to do it for me, I want to learn, but the sad reality is, very few care if you want to learn. Very few give even less than two sh**s about the fact you have good ideas (even small ideas can be good). Nobody cares. It's really sad.

I'd have to disagree about whether or not the community here cares about people trying to learn. it does depend on the questions you ask, as you also mentioned.

 

I'm very much a beginner with the CK, and once I started trying to do things with it and had specific questions to ask, I've gotten a lot of help pretty quickly. I also learn from the questions asked by others that are at a similiar stage of understanding and are looking for help.

 

on "lazy" modders that don't really want to learn, I also think it really depends on how you ask and what you're asking. I tend to have the attitude that anyone can learn these things, since ive been able to,but I do realize that not everyone wants to spend lots of time doing it. I think if those people really want to mod the he'll out of their game, and get the benefits of the authors hard work and time spent, they at least need to take the time to read through the comments page of a mod they're having problems with. Mod authors dont get paid to learn about making mods, or support the mods that they contribute for free. Anyone can use them and choose to give back to the community or not. I'd say the least anyone can do is make an attempt to not add to the many questions and problems that an author will get thrown at them.

[Timba888]

Good Topic!I have thought same things many times.Do I ask obvious questions too many times?Like you I have also learning disabilities so I can't remember long text guides.

All I have learned to using mods is:

-try

-make mistake

-ask help

-Get answer

-fix problem

-learn new thing

It's a hard way to install complicated mods but I have got very helpful answers in this forum.Just keep good manners and most people are very helpful and kind.

Also,I do not hesitate to give help if I know how to fix some problem.

[Frogzilla82]

I've never seen or heard of a 'lazy' mod user. I've come across mods that broke my game and others that improve it. I user NMM to help me keep them up to date and I still look for more mods