Thoughts on "Lazy" Mod Users?

[Tylersteinfeldt01]

Everyone here has made good points, in my opinion (if that even matters). We have a game here that offers great opportunities to create game play in any way we like, as immersive as is possible, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, as far out and imaginative as we can. I fall into the immersive end of the line, trying to make my character and style of play as immersive and true to life as I can, with what is available on the web as far as mods go. I search for the most reality based weapons, clothing, and living accommodations that I can find to add to my style of play. To that end, there are many mod possibilities that arise, and I only wish I had the skills to make them, but at 61, I don't see that happening, as my ability to learn new things has diminished. It took me some time, but by deconstructing mod postings and kind of reverse engineering, I learned what to place where in my files to manually set up a mod, although I still have a multitude of problems with some. I agree with tm2dragon that some people are just not wired for certain subjects, hence the need to ask those who are. I have asked many questions here in the forums and only a slim number have been answered. For the most part, many of my questions have had to do with load order, which I still don't understand. I have tried several suggested guidelines for ordering, which only resulted in the game not loading period. I have since reverted to the principle of adding mods in the order in which I need them for the game (starting with main character mods, weapons, clothing, etc and then as I need them, the construction mods and game play altering mods) which has, to a point worked for me in the result that the game will load and I can play. Could I have expressed my negative opinion of those whose guidelines I tried and did not work? Absolutely. Have I done so? No, and it would serve no purpose to do it. I genuinely only ask questions if I cannot fix the problem myself, and if I receive an answer, cool. Have I gone off the deep end because I didn't get a reply? Nope. It all boils down to maturity and respect for each of us here,as we all have had problems and needed help at one point or another. So if I post with suggestions about mods I'd like to see, please understand that if I could, I would be ecstatic to be able to do it, but in the end, I just don't see myself learning the skills to do it.

Ok, grey haired rambling and muttering over. Back to our program already in progress.

That's awesome! 61 and not only gaming but also modding! I think that is so great! On another note, I know manual modding has its advantages, but have you considered trying mod organizer or the NMM organizer? They both give you way more control over your load order and you can always go into the files manually for more tweaking. Also LOOT is an amazing tool, it helps you sort your mods based off of its database in more often then not a clean safe way. . If you need extra help on this subject I highly recommend GamerPoet Tutorials on YouTube. Man is a genius, he covers mod installation, game and organizer setup, as well as manual modding tutorials. Everything is always easy to follow and step by step. :)

 

GamerPoets Youtube channel

[Tylersteinfeldt01]

 

As a long time mod user and mod author I can attest to the fact there are many issues that can be solved with trial and error as well as a good amount of googling. Many mod authors seem willing to help, but in my experience the forums only help if you know what you're looking for. A lot of the time the questions have already been asked, but in the event you can't find what you're looking for don't expect anyone to reply to your posts. Maybe life has hardened me, but generally I get the feeling nobody cares whether or not you further your education on any subject here. Several times I've posted honest questions seeking answers to issues that I've ran into modding and creating mods to further my knowledge and skills, only to have my thread read and left empty. TO SOME OF US THE ANSWER ARE NOT OBVIOUS. I don't know if there's others like me, searching the internet tirelessly before breaking down and posting in the forums. . . I don't want anyone to do it for me, I want to learn, but the sad reality is, very few care if you want to learn. Very few give even less than two sh**s about the fact you have good ideas (even small ideas can be good). Nobody cares. It's really sad.

I'd have to disagree about whether or not the community here cares about people trying to learn. it does depend on the questions you ask, as you also mentioned.

 

I'm very much a beginner with the CK, and once I started trying to do things with it and had specific questions to ask, I've gotten a lot of help pretty quickly. I also learn from the questions asked by others that are at a similiar stage of understanding and are looking for help.

 

on "lazy" modders that don't really want to learn, I also think it really depends on how you ask and what you're asking. I tend to have the attitude that anyone can learn these things, since ive been able to,but I do realize that not everyone wants to spend lots of time doing it. I think if those people really want to mod the he'll out of their game, and get the benefits of the authors hard work and time spent, they at least need to take the time to read through the comments page of a mod they're having problems with. Mod authors dont get paid to learn about making mods, or support the mods that they contribute for free. Anyone can use them and choose to give back to the community or not. I'd say the least anyone can do is make an attempt to not add to the many questions and problems that an author will get thrown at them.

 

 

While generally I agree. But for the most part that I have experienced, if you can't figure it out on your own, you're SOL. I've had many issues modding and creating mods. Questions about mesh work and getting things to work with the ck or even where to find tutorials or walkthroughs. My problem is, my fellow authors, while incredibly talented, are also not very helpful. I've had to abandon great ideas for mods, simply because nobody was willing to help me learn or find resources to learn all by myself. I mean, I get it. As an author, I really do. We spend countless hours and very little thanks, appreciation, or compensation in return. If any. . I'm just saying, how can we expect more great mods to come from other people as well, If we don't make an effort to at least point someone in the right direction?

[FrankFamily]

Imo most of laziness issue comes from users not reading descriptions/sticky posts... and asking questions already covered there, not so much lack of knowledge on modding. This can irritate the mod author, I guess because it shows a level of disdain that can feel disrespectful. I.e. "Im not going to bother reading the description you wrote but I still expect you to solve my problem" theres a huge disparity of effort on top of which sometimes the mod author is held responsible for an issue that is often the user's fault actually... Topping on the cake would be "I will endorse if you do this" or similar "ransom" wordings that attempt to force the author's hand into doing something. And, of course, a minimum of respect is important.

 

Not that knowledge isnt important, the majority of problems mod users have would be solved by unspecific things like installing mods, where each stuff goes, etc. But I'd say most of the dumb, lazy or irritating conflicts between mod authors and users come from the behaviours explained above.

 

Its unresonable to expect everyone in the community will have the knowledge because nobody is born knowing, I for instance know a few things about modding Bethesda games yet Im clueless about modding the Witcher 3, what did I do to then? Read descriptions and google. The solution to 99% of the problems.

 

tldr: Read description and it will all be fine. Just my two cents.

Edited January 27, 2018 by FrankFamily

[jojje5]

I don´t think you have to worry about yourself OP. imho modders who mod mainly mod for the end users are doing it wrong, as it most of the time only leads to allot of grief, and if the goal was the please the end user they should be game developers instead and not game modders.

I could care less if you are lazy or not. i mod for myself and other modders. that i sometimes get appreciation from end users i just take as an extra bonus.

[Greslin]

I do get frustrated with mod users on occasion, but really, I don't think of it as a laziness issue. Some just feel a bit more entitled than others, is all. I suspect a lot of the gap is age, maturity, and just some general perspective differences.

 

I'm just a middle-aged guy who hacks around in Fallout in his spare time, and I have been doing so for almost ten years now. So I write for me. That's it. I release on Nexus because I'm curious if anyone out there digs on my experiment (and all my mods are basically experiments) and has some idea that I hadn't considered (which happens all the time). It's purely a hobby deal. I do it when I have both time and interest, both of which are in increasingly limited supply.

 

The people who don't read descriptions, that's not a big deal, because I can simply say "go RTFM". My issues happen with the guys who take some sort of personal offense to the very concept that one of my mods represents. I mainly do gameplay mechanics mods, which often involve knocking over sacred cows from time to time, and then I start getting rude comments that amount to "Your mod sucks, I'd like it so much more if you did (something completely different from what I wrote), so can you please go work on that instead?"

 

Then I go look up the user who left the comment, click "look up user's files", and count the overwhelmingly zero number of mods they've ever released. When I see that, it's insta-ignore. But it's still irritating. There's an entitlement there that grates on my nerves.

 

Most of it, I think, is just modern video game culture, how a certain user archetype feels entitled to dictate how Bethesda, Bungee, Valve, EA, Blizzard, or anyone else conducts business just because as a gamer they personally were willing to fork over sixty bucks at some point. And I can't really summon up a lot of outrage over that nonsense when money has changed hands. But many then turn around and extend that same attitude to mod authors, many of whom have no interest in modding for dollars, and are just kicking out ESPs for fun as a hobby. Like they're doing me a favor by even gracing it with their eyeballs.

 

Luckily, those people are in the WAY minority. Over nearly a decade of Fallout modding, nearly all of the people I've encountered have been awesome. It's just the tiny few with the attitudes that annoy me, and virtually all of them are just the ones that come across as spoiled, entitled brats.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Greslin

[jcdenton2012]

Imo most of laziness issue comes from users not reading descriptions/sticky posts... and asking questions already covered there, not so much lack of knowledge on modding. This can irritate the mod author, I guess because it shows a level of disdain that can feel disrespectful. I.e. "Im not going to bother reading the description you wrote but I still expect you to solve my problem" theres a huge disparity of effort on top of which sometimes the mod author is held responsible for an issue that is often the user's fault actually... Topping on the cake would be "I will endorse if you do this" or similar "ransom" wordings that attempt to force the author's hand into doing something. And, of course, a minimum of respect is important.

 

Not that knowledge isnt important, the majority of problems mod users have would be solved by unspecific things like installing mods, where each stuff goes, etc. But I'd say most of the dumb, lazy or irritating conflicts between mod authors and users come from the behaviours explained above.

 

Its unresonable to expect everyone in the community will have the knowledge because nobody is born knowing, I for instance know a few things about modding Bethesda games yet Im clueless about modding the Witcher 3, what did I do to then? Read descriptions and google. The solution to 99% of the problems.

 

tldr: Read description and it will all be fine. Just my two cents.

Whenever I release a mod which requires that the person downloading absolutely positively read part of the text in the bio, I always write in red letters: [important: You should always read stuff next to the word important]. This is both to be cheeky and because what I'm about to explain is indeed important. If someone complains about the very thing that I just explained in that paragraph, I usually just ignore them. The same goes for the sections called [Legal Crap] where I usually preempt accusations of theft or racism from downloaders. The latter only happening once when I built a copy of Albert Speers Germania for New Vegas and some special snowflakes got ticked off by the Nazi flags. I've learned over the years that you can avoid a lot of grief by how you set up your description bio. I always make it clear cut: Legal Crap, Important, Notes, Requirements, Intro, Contributors, and a big note at the top, 'Read this entire thing.'

 

:happy:

[chucksteel]

I could be wrong but, I think we can all agree that the problem isn't the noobs, The Computer illiterate or those who are a little intimidated about the modding process! We have all been one of those things at one time or the other!

 

I can forgive a noob, or any of the above mentioned for asking a dumb question and will acctually try to help them if I feel they are sincere.

 

The problem falls on the entitled! The demanding and rude people! In my experience they are in the minority but, I know that not everyone has had my experiences!

[Greslin]

I actually like the guys who want to learn stuff. I may RTFM them from time to time (I don't need to teach xEdit when the FNVEdit Training Manual is right there), but more often I'm happy to answer questions and help when I can. That's the main reason as a rule I include source code to everything I release - at one time, it was me dissecting mods by people like Chucksteel and Imp of the Perverse. Often, it still is.

 

The more people who learn how to do this, the longer the hobby stays alive. It takes me back to my childhood, bending and twisting an Atari 800XL into pretzels that the designers never intended. That's my fun. I'm happy to pass that fun along.

[chucksteel]

I spend a lot of time trying to help the console crowd now that they have mods!!!! It's a pain and Beth (Cough Cough) Sucks! but this is here to stay I think so we have to educate these people or it will get even uglier!

 

I do fully admit I play on both PC and XB1 so this is of more then a passing interest to me but still, The miss information that floats around Beth is ridiculous!

[yakalrad]

As strictly a console player, I can tell you that modding FO4 on Xbox is not exactly easy, for a couple of reasons. First, there is no possible way to look at the files of a mod to see exactly what it does, so you just have to hope the mod author has listed in their description every single change the mod makes. Second, there are absolutely no load order organization tools available that can be used on console, meaning we have no choice but to organize our load orders manually. Both of these factors can make modding your console game quite a daunting experience, especially since most mods can be fairly difficult to classify and dont contain a suggested load order placement.

 

That being said, I have spent a ton of time educating myself on mod use before mods were ever released on console. I started by reading everything I could get my hands on, then started following some basic guides, guessed which mods should go where, and finally just started playing around with my load order in-game to figure out how they worked together. I have spent a lot of time manually figuring out load orders on Xbox so consequently feel I have a good grasp on how they work. After all my experimentation, I ended up not adhering to any one load order guide and prefer to organize my mods in my own way, and because of so much in-game testing, how I know they will work. I usually run anywhere from 80-120 mods in any given game. Playing around with load orders and solving mod conflicts in-game is actually part of the fun for me. If that makes me a masochist, then so be it. ;P

 

It may be because the schools no longer teach reading comprehension and a lot of youngsters these days seem to have the attention span of a mole rat, but it seems as if a lot of younger console gamers have not only a lazy approach to gaming, but seem to think modding is plug and play. Many times I have seen posts on Beth by people who slap up 150 randomly chosen mods and then demand that someone order them for them. Uh, no. Again, modding your game on console can be very intimidating for the reasons I mentioned above and I realize that console mods are a pretty new thing to a lot of players, but if you dont do your homework, dont expect someone else to do it for you. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problems trying to help someone who may be having difficulty wrapping their head around how load orders work, provided they have done their due diligence by trying to learn as much as they can and are nice and respectful.