Giving up on Vortex for now

[d81]

Individual file conflict resolution is on the todo list. But why do you need exact plugin positioning?

 

It makes for good visual representation of a load order. It's very easy and intuitive to drag plugins around where we want them to be as opposed to setting up rules.

 

It's also easy and allows my human brain to understand what my game is going to do. I'm trying to use Vortex and get on board with how it works, but so far I am not getting it. I don't want to use LOOT, I don't want load order automation. I want to control what my game does without micromanaging columns. I want to visually control and understand how my game is loading content. I did not expect this would be the new Nexus Mod Manager at all...I just don't know what to think.

 

A brief example of why I want normal load order (yes, I'm calling it "normal" because I don't know what this new Vortex method constitutes). I have a dummy ESP file named "CombinedReplacers.esp". As the name suggest, this file loads various small texture/mesh mods I have packed into BA2 archives to avoid filling up my data directory with loose files and my mod manager with tiny mods. Sound like a lot of trouble? Well it's not and takes all of two minutes to do. It's far more cumbersome to download and enable a bunch of tiny mods through a mod manager. I don't want to set this file's priority. I don't care about its hierarchy. I want to put it at the top of the load order and leave it there. Then I want to, if I feel like it, put other dummy ESP texture/mesh replacers above or below it as I see fit. I do not want to worry about hierarchy or priority or anything else other than where I drag and drop it. Drag and drop is easy. I do not want to re-sort with automation software, I do not want to manually change numbers in a column (that is obscured when double-clicking a list entry), manage fake "soft" dependencies, or do anything else other than drag and drop.

 

Personally I do not understand why this is even a question that needs to be answered, but I must be behind the times...what I want from a mod manager is never going to exist I guess (Mod Organizer could have been the one...if it wasn't abandoned I'd be using it now). I'll keep at it and try to understand why this is better, maybe my bias is just too strong to be overcome, but I don't get why making something more complicated with fallible automation software is "easier". I opened Vortex and had literally no idea what I was looking at or how to begin. I've extensively used many mod managers, and this is the first time I have not been able to understand the basics of how to use one within 5 or 10 minutes (my fault for not buying into dysfunctional automated-master-list-load-order-sorters I guess). Don't get me wrong, Vortex is an impressive piece of software (for an Electron app) that looks to have lots of functionality, but I would like to manage my load order with it. Maybe normal load order manipulation could be implemented as an optional extension that is disabled by default? For "advanced" users that don't need LOOT?

[Shurtugal08]

To be honest I am rather disappointed in Vortex at the moment. We were promised it would cater to both newbies and advanced users. Instead its forcing things upon us that clearly makes it intended for newbies all around. We advanced users want to control aspects of the tool as we see fit, regardless of your opinions or views. Maybe that's asking for too much out of an alpha but still, that doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

 

I like the UI and all, Plus absolutely love the built in theme editor.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Shurtugal08

[Qwinn]

I never used Loot even when I was a newbie. When I'd try it, it would shuffle things around unnecessarily and I'd always hit cancel rather than apply the changes. Not a fan. As long as I can't use MO2, I'll learn to live with it, I guess, but I gotta agree that not being able to sort the order manually is a negative in my book.

[d81]

To be honest I am rather disappointed in Vortex at the moment. We were promised it would cater to both newbies and advanced users. Instead its forcing things upon us that clearly makes it intended for newbies all around. We advanced users want to control aspects of the tool as we see fit, regardless of your opinions or views. Maybe that's asking for too much out of an alpha but still, that doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

 

I like the UI and all, Plus absolutely love the built in theme editor.

 

I never used Loot even when I was a newbie. When I'd try it, it would shuffle things around unnecessarily and I'd always hit cancel rather than apply the changes. Not a fan. As long as I can't use MO2, I'll learn to live with it, I guess, but I gotta agree that not being able to sort the order manually is a negative in my book.

 

I had no idea this anti-load-order movement was going on...I would have formed a resistance or something. Maybe there's still time. I mean, I don't understand, is this real...what's happening? I am very, very, very against this. Maybe that's wrong or I'm stupid or whatever, but I don't feel comfortable with the author of Nexus Mod Manager saying the things Tannin42 is saying...the statements about C drive installation and Linux are laughable.

Edited February 2, 2018 by d81

[Tannin42]

@Tannin42 - What was the basis for the design decision to rely on Loot's dependency to sort the load order? It seems like this was a design decision made to ease the process for the masses, which is a great thing in my opinion. As you've stated before, most users just group like things together and don't necessarily know why/how to sort a load order "properly" (we wont' debate properly here, many arguments on many sides of that one).

 

I think what users are asking for here is an "advanced" feature which allows for manual sorting of the load order within the gui. They have this in both MO and NMM, but not with Vortex. For "advanced" users who are used to that sort of feature, to find it lacking in Vortex is a bit jarring. Sure, they can learn to use Loot's features - but calling out to another piece of software, as a dependency to avoid building a wanted feature, is in my mind, a short sighted development viewpoint.

 

That all being said, the person who "needs" the ability to sort their load order manually is (I agree) in the extreme minority. You've asked repeatedly in this thread for someone to reason why they need this feature, and as a software developer and "advanced" user myself - I can't say that I absolutely need it. I would very much like it, but if it's a question of an MVP feature vs a nice to have, manual sorting is a nice to have.

 

 

*EDIT* - Not in any way am I dumping on Vortex - I think ti's innovative and a nice step forward over NMM. And while I am partial to Mod Organizer's features, I am giving Vortex a fair shakeown. One thing I haven't seen anyone ask and haven't found myself: Is there any documentation on Vortex and it's features? A how to use guide?

 

I just posted a reply on the announcement post:

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/6354696-limited-vortex-alpha-release-today-full-release-soon/?p=57246031

 

 

People rant a lot against this feature, but they do it within minutes of using Vortex for the first time. So did the people on the focus group when they got their hand on it but as far as I'm aware they all came around to liking this feature or at least learn to live with it. I have yet to see a complaint by anyone who has actually used Vortex for a day or two.

 

And you know, it was the same thing when I originally announced MO, all feedback was negative. Every single one was "you will never pull this off", "This won't work", "What's the point", "We already have wrye bash, we don't need something else".

If I wasn't somewhat arrogant and convinced of my ideas there would be no MO, I would have given up on it right there. That's why I'm not going to cave just because a lot of users say "I need this because I need it" and "I want it because it's always been like this".

That doesn't mean I don't listen to reason, if someone has a compelling reason that manual ordering of the entire plugin list is somehow important to some users (even if it's a small group) I will consider adding it, maybe as an extension to be downloaded separately.

 

But I need to understand the requirement first, because I know that people get used to doing things a certain way. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But I'm the tool maker, I'm here to provide the best solution for an actual problem, so I have to ask: Are you sure it's a nail? Because to me it looks like a screw and I can do better than "hammer" for that problem.

[kanisiba]

Actually , What's the meaning of excluding manual load order handling? Vanilla launcher even has.

Edited February 2, 2018 by kanisiba

[TheMastersSon]

And my question was why you need precise plugin positioning to do mod development?

I'm at a loss to explain why anyone would claim exact positioning isn't one of the most basic requirements for proper mod testing.

[Oblitus]

 

But I need to understand the requirement first, because I know that people get used to doing things a certain way. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But I'm the tool maker, I'm here to provide the best solution for an actual problem, so I have to ask: Are you sure it's a nail? Because to me it looks like a screw and I can do better than "hammer" for that problem.

 

 

You know, hammering a screw works better than screwing a nail. So I'd prefer to have a hammer over a screwdriver if I have to choose one.

[Tannin42]

 

 

But I need to understand the requirement first, because I know that people get used to doing things a certain way. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. But I'm the tool maker, I'm here to provide the best solution for an actual problem, so I have to ask: Are you sure it's a nail? Because to me it looks like a screw and I can do better than "hammer" for that problem.

 

 

You know, hammering a screw works better than screwing a nail. So I'd prefer to have a hammer over a screwdriver if I have to choose one.

 

 

I don't disagree, all I'm asking is: "What's your problem" and the answer I get is "I want a hammer, I've always used a hammer, I won't touch anything but a hammer".

It's not answering the question you see?

[Deleted133263User]

Ooh this looks interesting, Vortex has adopted the way LOOT does things ?

 

Good news, its about time people started taking time out to understand it better, then maybe its masterlists will get a bit more audience participation in populating it where necessary, and it will get as good as BOSS used to be for specific groups of mod ordering requirements.

 

LOOT already does a pretty good job of looking at a mods records and deciding which needs to go later than others, its masterlist is slowly growing, and for personal refinement it has Priorities and Load After methods of rearranging things the same every time .. although maybe LOOT does this a little better in that you can Drag n Drop a plugin onto another plugins card ..

 

 

 

 

Can the same be done in Vortex ?