Jump to content

seriously? this is not right


jojje5

Recommended Posts

So i got into a private debate with one of the big guys from this site about copyright after some comments i posted here earlier.

 

now i am getting told that i can´t even use a simple script like,

Event OnTriggerEnter(ObjectReference akActionRef)
	ObjectReference.SetOpen(True)
EndEvent

Event OnTriggerLeave(ObjectReference akActionRef)
	ObjectReference.SetOpen(False)
EndEvent

because that is part of other mods uploaded on this site that has agreement of shared assets and intellectual property, and if i do he will make sure that my mods are taken down. (apparently he is very connected)

 

i disagree and argue that changing the name of the ObjectReference would make it into a derivative work , voiding any previous claim and making it mine.

 

then he argues that it is not the script itself that is copyrighted but the function, and yes you can copyright a function, but to do that you also need to own the mechanic that governs it, and in this case it is the language, and a language can never be copyrighted because it is a fluid medium of expression.

 

but as i put that as my argument he states that because it is in scripted form it is no longer fluid,

and yes, he is kind of right about that. you can copyright chunks of language by fixating it. but i point out again that if it would get changed again that voids the previous rule.

but he just argues that no i am not allowed to change it now, while i still think that the rule about derivative work applies and that he needs to get a patent for the script if he wants to avoid any tamper with it.

 

at this point we get no further and we just agree to disagree.

 

but if he is right then that is very bad news for all modders here. it means no mods can share functions with each other, even if it is just such a simple function like remote opening a door. :confused:

 

and the only hope we would have left is to claim "fair use", and that is defiantly not a silverbullet, not in court and especially as it seems not here on the nexus.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know who you talked to, but copyright doesn't hold to programming languages (syntax or semantics) unless it's entirely proprietary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know who you talked to, but copyright doesn't hold to programming languages (syntax or semantics) unless it's entirely proprietary.

 

thanks allot for confirming, i was surprised to learn that both syntax and semantics does not hold, but i was just googling around and it seems you are right.

 

The copyright law does not protect the functional aspects of a computer program, such as the program’s algorithms, formatting, functions, logic, or system design.

from https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ61.pdf

 

but after reading this i feel confused in another way, what exactly then entitles the copyrightable expression in a program? is it only the "hard assets" and the aesthetics in a program that is eligible ? there must be something, else it would just be a giant free for all where the only way to protect yourself would be thru encryption. ?

Edited by jojje5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Copyright is something that you would ultimately be consulting a lawyer about. For what you're doing, programming languages are not inherently "copyrighted" unless they are explicitly proprietary assets of the copyright holder. Normally, the assets (end-results such as rendered objects, art/texture work, etc.) of an engine (or the engine itself) are protected by copyright, not the language by which they were developed.

Edited by ZeroKing
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Copyright is something that you would ultimately be consulting a lawyer about. For what you're doing, programming languages are not inherently "copyrighted" unless they are explicitly proprietary assets of the copyright holder. Normally, the assets (end-results such as rendered objects, art/texture work, etc.) of an engine (or the engine itself) are protected by copyright, not the language by which they were developed.

 

 

well yea, i need to find some other lawyers then as my current ones does not seem to have a clue. we work in the music industry where things work differently.

 

by the way the EULA from the creationkit also came up in the argument as a way to intimidate me

 

 

2. GAME MODS; OWNERSHIP AND LICENSE TO ZENIMAX

A. Ownership. As between You and ZeniMax, You are the owner of Your Game Mods and all intellectual property rights therein, subject to the licenses You grant to ZeniMax in this Agreement. You will not permit any third party to download, distribute or use Game Mods developed or created by You for any commercial purpose.

 

but i suspect this is mainly just a way for Zenimax to make authors eligible for the distribution of the mods, as the owner they are and any possible publishers would also have to take responsibility. and by so zenimax can take direct action without having to go thru litigation.

and if it is like you say and only proprietary assets are eligible, then i guess i was right since the eula would mean nothing to an author that holds on to it unless his mods also contains custom assets.

Edited by jojje5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can not answer your question entirely as I don't know the specifics and the person to whom you spoke (was it staff or another member? Was it the author of one of the mods referenced?) You should talk to either SirSalami or Dark0ne (the site owner) regarding this matter. Unless you spoke to one of them already.

 

Ultimately copyright is one thing and the rules of the site are another. I will say in the past that scripts themselves have been protected here when they were an original work. There is a big issue with derivative work that is sometimes just too difficult to decide upon in some instances.

 

That being said, there is a bit of the site rules you may wish to also pay attention to that is above and beyond copyright. This site follows copyright laws (and all laws of course.) But the rules of this site often go beyond even laws and the instance of copyright is one of them.

 

The Terms of Service state:

 

  • Absolutely no copyrighted work is to be used without permission of the original creator. This includes content from other games, from DLCs, music creators or from other file authors. This also includes members from countries that do not recognise copyright laws.
  • All files uploaded must have been created by the uploader or used with permission from the original author of the content. Such permission must be indicated in the Readme text attached to the file and/or on the Description page (or in the Description field for images), and must be obtained in advance, before uploading the file. If you cannot provide proof of consent then your file will be removed and your account is likely to be banned.
  • Always provide appropriate credit to authors who have given you permission to use their content in your files both within the file description and within your file readme, even if said content was published as free to use.

 

So your mod may fall in arrears to the rules of the site regardless of if it is a lawful copyright matter or not. So to the point, it might not matter. It may not be a copyright issue against you if taken to court (thought honestly I think the reason your attorneys are having issues is that there is very little case law regarding mods and even less on derivative works of a mod, if any.) Just because a mod does or doesn't meet the standards of copyright does not mean it doesn't break those above rules. One of the reasons The Nexus has survived all these many, many years is that we protect mod authors' works.

 

You will wish to talk to SirSalami/Dark0ne in this matter if you contend it as a derivative work. But in the end of this just because it isn't copyright infringement doesn't mean that you wouldn't need to get permission from the original mod author. That is the NEXUS rules to which you agreed when you signed up for this site. I'm not saying that this is what will happen at the end of this. I am telling you that our Terms are far more protective in regard to mod author content. Any answer you get from SirSalami/Dark0ne (especially Robin since he is the site owner) will be final. This is a private website and Dark0ne's will is supreme. He can make any rule that he desires that does not break the law and host or not any mod that does not break the law. If the rules on hosting a mod are more stringent than the law, that is his decision and will.

 

So I urge you to talk with SirSalami or Dark0ne as these are really the only people that can give you a final, firm answer to your questions (or one of us moderators by proxy.) Raising them again in the open forum will not get you a final answer as it isn't coming from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

 

So speak to them privately on Discord or use the Contact Me button at the bottom of the forums. Make sure you have as much information as possible when you speak to them of the situation.

 

Good Luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is dangerous territory, something as simple as that script could be subject to parallel discovery. Hell, it's so basic, there's no way to prove you didn't just figure it out yourself when you needed to do the same thing. To me, claiming ownership of something so basic falls under the same category as the NFL trying to stop people from referring to The Super Bowl as the The Super Bowl. Just backwards, asinine, and stupid.

Were it more complex things would be different, but trying to claim that you have ownership over six lines of code that anyone competent with the language could create/discover on their own? There's just no defense for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me start with... I know almost jack-all about scripting, but I know enough to figure out that whatcha got there is a very simple and basic event trigger. Modders who do quest/dialogue scripting use them all the time for Skyrim and Fallout 4. So either every single quest mod with detailed events for Skyrim and Fallout 4 needs to be pulled... or the guy you talked to is simply wrong. There is zero shame in being wrong. Humans are humans, it happens all the time. Own it. Fix it. Move on.

 

Now, he might be right if the references in your script referred to other modders content, but... based upon what you got up on screen... that ain't the case. In any case... talk to Dark0ne because he'll give you a firm yes or no based upon what you tell him.

Edited by jcdenton2012
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i disagree and argue that changing the name of the ObjectReference would make it into a derivative work , voiding any previous claim and making it mine.

 

I don't know who you talked to, but copyright doesn't hold to programming languages (syntax or semantics) unless it's entirely proprietary.

thanks allot for confirming, i was surprised to learn that both syntax and semantics does not hold, but i was just googling around and it seems you are right.

The copyright law does not protect the functional aspects of a computer program, such as the program’s algorithms, formatting, functions, logic, or system design.

from https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ61.pdf

 

but after reading this i feel confused in another way, what exactly then entitles the copyrightable expression in a program? is it only the "hard assets" and the aesthetics in a program that is eligible ? there must be something, else it would just be a giant free for all where the only way to protect yourself would be thru encryption. ?

 

You can't copyright programming languages themselves, just as you can't copyright English or other languages (even invented ones like Klingon). But when you write a book in English or write source code in C++, you (automatically) gain copyright on that particular expression. There are aspects of computer programs that cannot be copyrighted, yes, but this is why tests like the Abstraction-Filtration-Comparision test were created - to figure out what parts of a computer program can be copyrighted.

 

Now, as for your claim that you changing "akActionRef" into something else and then suddenly that becomes a derivative work that you own is incorrect. First, the right to create derivative works is owned solely by the copyright holder or anyone else they authorize (source: U.S. Copyright Office Circular 14). Secondly, simply changing one little thing isn't going to even get you close to derivative work status - otherwise I could just change "Alice" to "Jennifer" and suddenly have a derivative work of "Jennifer in Wonderland".

 

In short: Talk with Dark0ne, then seriously think about finding lawyers who specialize in copyright who will know more about the issue.

Edited by Reneer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...