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Mod File Structure - do I have it right?


Vermithraxxx

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I am not a modder. I am simply a mod user (Skyrim). That in itself has become a complicated hobby. I have ~160 mods and ~100 plugins and I use NMM, Loot, Merge Plugins minimally, and Wryebash minimally. I've watched Gopher videos, Gamer Poet videos, Dirty Weasel videos etc etc. It is all a bit foggy. There needs to be a modding 101 somewhere that explains the file structure of [bethesda] mods since this is so important to load order, what, when and how to remove mods, update mods, merge mods, etc etc. Now if someone can point me to such a place fine. If not then, at the risk of supreme boredom and much rolling of eyeballs, I would like to ask someone to please explain the different mod file types and how those relate to manipulating mods (for the user, not the modder).

 

For example what is the difference between an .esm and .esp? Why do graphic mods that have basically meshes and textures need an .esp? If I remove a graphics mod that overwrote my vanilla meshes and textures are the old files still there?

 

And that evil scripting. How do we know which mods have scripts? I look in the preview file contents and look for .pex files is all I know. There are complicated instructions on dealing with these - the general word is once installed don't uninstall - simply retreat to a save prior to installation if you must. Many mod authors do not include specific uninstall - unactivate - reinstall (needed to reactive a FOMOD if something that interacts has changed) - update instructions so one wonders how to do all that with any given mod.

 

And lastly for this starting post is the complexity of mod interaction and the innumerable patches. This increases one's .esps geometrically and begs for merging.

 

Ah yes which files can I merge?

 

Enough. I'll see if anyone helps out. I'll try Gopher and Gamer Poets again meanwhile - maybe the STEP site.

 

Thanks in advance.

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Well, there are exceptions to this but basically a esm is a master plugin and esp is a slave plugin that modifies or adds to master plugins. So, if I created a voice type that was recruitable and marriageable and had a bunch of different conversations, I could save it as a ESP and it would work fine. Then I could give Lydia (who I can see because my plugin is a slave to the Skyrim.esm) that voice type and it'd be great. But, if you created a character on your own plugin and wanted to use my voice type, you could not assign it because the voice type doesn't exist in your plugin. So, the way to get around that is to make the first plugin a ESM, then assign it as a master to the second plugin; that way it can find the voice type. Unless you're creating mods, the distinction isn't really important except when it comes to load order, in which esm always come first regardless of your load order.

 

The only way a mesh or texture mod doesn't need a esp is when they straight-up replace an existing mesh or texture. The game is looking for a certain texture in a very specific folder with a very specific name. So, if you replace that texture exactly, then the game will find the new one instead. If you want the game to look in a different place or add a new item or anything like that, you need a plugin to tell it that.

 

Your original, vanilla meshes and textures are still there. They're packed inside BSA archives. There's no mod that replaces the entire vanilla BSA archives, that would be ridiculous. They just add their own files that take priority. If you delete them, the original ones will load unless you have a plugin telling the game to look somewhere else for them.

 

Scripts are no more dangerous to your game than meshes or textures. Every single thing you do in the game, from moving the camera to opening doors is done via script. Broken scripts can cause problems, just like broken meshes and textures. The difference is meshes and textures make it very obvious when they're broken, while scripts exist in the background and can take a lot longer to indicate something is wrong. Then, by the time you realize it, your save may be worse for ware.

 

There's no reason to avoid scripted mods unless you have reason to believe they may be problematic. You can't tell if they're problematic by looking at the script folder. I could make a mod with 1000 scripts that have no performance impact whatsoever, and I could make a mod with one single script that could systematically delete your saves one by one, make your PC give you the finger, and then crash your game. You just can't tell any of that without opening the scripts and seeing what they do. And if you're not comfortable with that just read the comment/bug report section of the mod. If there's a problem then chances are people have noticed.

 

What you've described is called a "clean save." Basically, you load the game with the plugin removed and save the game again. Then you reactivate the plugin and load from your "clean save" so that it can start fresh. If a mod requires a clean save to upgrade, the procedure is always the same unless specified otherwise. Not all mods benefit from one during the upgrade process. It's mostly for when you change what a mod is doing, then you might need a fresh start for the changes to take effect. But a lot of the time, the new version is going to do it the same way so there's no point in stopping and starting it again. You'll just have to trust the mod author's instructions.

 

If you care about the long-term health of your save, it is typically recommended to change your load order as little as possible. The adding and removal of mods in the middle of a play-through can have adverse effects both immediately and over time. This is not specific to scripted mods, but does include them. That's not to say your save won't last 1000 hours while you change your load order every other day, because it could. But it could also... not.

 

Finally, I haven't merged many plugins except for my own. I don't know that there are really any general rules that apply to all mods in regards to what can be merged or not. It really depends on how each one is setup. To avoid merging scripted mods might be a good first step, as some scripts can be setup to look for a specific plugin with the help of SKSE, although not all of them do. Things like face geometry for actors and sound files for voices are structured in a way specific to their plugin, so if the name of the plugin changes then they need to be adjusted. If I were you, I'd just merge really simple mods like armors, weapons, texture replacers, that kind of thing.

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Thanks for your lengthy reply. It appears this is not foggy just because of me or the scope of the subject but there no real black and white rules for a lot of this. I re-watched Gopher’s vid on NMM but it is too basic.

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Well, there are exceptions to this but basically a esm is a master plugin and esp is a slave plugin that modifies or adds to master plugins.

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Ah- ‘m’ for master [plugin] and ‘p’ for [slave] plugin. I leaned this sometime in the distant past.

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The only way a mesh or texture mod doesn't need a esp is when they straight-up replace an existing mesh or texture.

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That sounds like a direct overwrite which begs the question of recovering the vanilla files if the mod is removed. Is this really what happens with a non-esp mod? Doesn’t sound good. So the role of an esp is literally a temporary redirection for (or addition to) the original vanilla files – it doesn’t actually overwrite anything just changes the file pointer. It appears that removing or adding pure graphics mesh and texture mods, even those with an esp, is fairly safe to do anytime or am I jumping to conclusions?

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Scripts are no more dangerous to your game than meshes or textures.

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Yes I gathered that. Any actual player interaction is likely due to scripts as opposed to simple eye candy. Scripted mods then are ‘dynamic’. They have a change of state ‘memory’ that is recorded with each save. Meshes and textures are ‘static’ in that they remain the same since they were installed. This is what makes updating and / or removing scripted mods more problematic. So it is good to know if a mod has a script. Is the only way to know that to look at the file type extensions (ie, pex)? The more popular mods that have evolved over years and kept up to date usually have fairly good updating / uninstalling directions from the author but not all. Yes I read the forum section of the mods to see what others are having trouble with. Many of those problems however are specific to the poster’s unique setup and without knowing that (and the poster many times don’t know what is causing the conflict) its shrugging shoulders time and simply deciding to take the plunge or not. I am trying to educate myself a bit more so I understand what might cause problems not just complain about them.

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What you've described is called a "clean save." Basically, you load the game with the plugin removed and save the game again. Then you reactivate the plugin and load from your "clean save" so that it can start fresh. If a mod requires a clean save to upgrade, the procedure is always the same unless specified otherwise.

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This sounds like standard operating procedure for removing or updating any mod with a script – but not necessary with just meshes and textures (BTW is the two basic file types we are dealing with: graphics in the form of meshes and textures (dds, nif, and wav for audio) and scripts (pex) or are there more? How does bas file types fit in the picture?). Some instructions / recommendations go further: they ask you to place your character in a cell not affected by the mod or undo anything affected by the mod (maybe dismiss your followers for example). Furthermore there might be an instruction wait a certain time for cells to ‘respawn’. In these more complicated cases I guess what you are telling me is to follow the mod author’s direction. There really isn’t rules of thumb one might follow at this point.

 

There is a tool out there (I’ve got it installed I think) called the save game script cleaner. Is that something we should be using once in awhile or only for severely bloated saves? My save size is ~29k right now with 1000 hours in on this play through (yes it is a lot – this is my test bed for mods).

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Finally, I haven't merged many plugins except for my own. . . If I were you, I'd just merge really simple mods like armors, weapons, texture replacers, that kind of thing.

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What bloats the esp count is patches. A substantial mod might have three, four, or more each with its esp. Are you suggesting though that I could merge all my weapon mods into a single esp (given I don’t plan on removing any of those)? Nice, but with updates I would have to rebuild the merge. Par for the course I suppose.

 

You didn’t mention Wryebash and the bashed patch. A lot of material to cover I know. One problem I am am having with all these tools is they overlap in function. Would be nice to have a recommend list somewhere with what each tool is best to be used for. Anyhow it appears tat the bashed patch is used to merge leveled lists otherwise the latest mod in the load order that impacts leveled lists will overwrite what came prior and thus leave stuff out. So my understanding is use Wrybash to make a bashed patch when you install a mod that affects leveled lists right?

 

Thanks for your response. Very helpful.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Sorry this response is so delayed, but maybe it'll still be of some help.

 

That sounds like a direct overwrite which begs the question of recovering the vanilla files if the mod is removed. Is this really what happens with a non-esp mod? Doesn’t sound good. So the role of an esp is literally a temporary redirection for (or addition to) the original vanilla files – it doesn’t actually overwrite anything just changes the file pointer. It appears that removing or adding pure graphics mesh and texture mods, even those with an esp, is fairly safe to do anytime or am I jumping to conclusions?

 

 

 

BSA is an archive. It's a collection of assets locked inside a digital safe that the game can read. Loose files, such as .dds, .nif, .pex, etc., take priority over those placed inside BSA archives. So, if texture.dds is packed within the Skyrim textures BSA, and a mod adds a loose "texture.dds" file into your game folder, the game will choose to load the loose file over the BSA. But that doesn't mean the archive isn't still there, and if you remove the mod and the loose file, the game will once again load from it.

 

Moreover, a big part of why most modders recommend the use of a mod manager is that it won't permanently remove files, even if two mods try to add the same loose file. Mods can also pack their assets in a BSA, in which case the plugin with the highest priority (loaded last) will be loaded. I should also note, Mod Organizer can bend many of these rules if you tell it to.

 

To answer your quest, yes it's usually safe to add and remove mesh and texture replacers.

 

Yes I gathered that. Any actual player interaction is likely due to scripts as opposed to simple eye candy. Scripted mods then are ‘dynamic’. They have a change of state ‘memory’ that is recorded with each save. Meshes and textures are ‘static’ in that they remain the same since they were installed. This is what makes updating and / or removing scripted mods more problematic. So it is good to know if a mod has a script. Is the only way to know that to look at the file type extensions (ie, pex)? The more popular mods that have evolved over years and kept up to date usually have fairly good updating / uninstalling directions from the author but not all. Yes I read the forum section of the mods to see what others are having trouble with. Many of those problems however are specific to the poster’s unique setup and without knowing that (and the poster many times don’t know what is causing the conflict) its shrugging shoulders time and simply deciding to take the plunge or not. I am trying to educate myself a bit more so I understand what might cause problems not just complain about them.

 

 

 

I'm not sure "dynamic" is the right word, but I think you get the general idea. Whether or not a mod is "script heavy" tends to be something noted by modders. You can write scripts to run repeatedly, and in the right circumstances that can be a volatile problem. That's pretty well-emphasized in most scripting discussions, and most people try to put in safeguards to keep bad things from happening if not avoid that type of script entirely. But it is something to be aware of.

 

However, I would say the large majority of scripts run once when they're told to, change a state or a variable, and then don't do anything until they're called again. And if the mod is uninstalled then they simply don't get called again. The "dynamic" part is the fact that scripts are able to change game variables, and if you uninstall them then they may not get an opportunity to change the variables back. For example, if Lydia was a mod and I recruited her as a follower, if I uninstalled that mod before dismissing her then the game would think I still have a follower. So, until that variable gets reset, I won't be able to recruit anyone else.

 

But, again, it's really a case-by-case circumstance. Many mods are completely self-contained and don't affect vanilla variables.

 

This sounds like standard operating procedure for removing or updating any mod with a script – but not necessary with just meshes and textures (BTW is the two basic file types we are dealing with: graphics in the form of meshes and textures (dds, nif, and wav for audio) and scripts (pex) or are there more? How does bas file types fit in the picture?). Some instructions / recommendations go further: they ask you to place your character in a cell not affected by the mod or undo anything affected by the mod (maybe dismiss your followers for example). Furthermore there might be an instruction wait a certain time for cells to ‘respawn’. In these more complicated cases I guess what you are telling me is to follow the mod author’s direction. There really isn’t rules of thumb one might follow at this point.

 

 

 

Those are the file types. You could break it down further if you wanted to. Wav files work, but for bigger files like music you probably want to convert it to xwm for efficiency, or .fuz if it containts lip-sync data like speech. There are different types of dds formats depending on what you want or need from the texture (they're still labeled .dds). In addition to nifs, you can also have things like .TRI files that handle vertex manipulation. Etc. But you mentioned the big ones.

 

This is another one of those things where it just depends on the circumstance. A lot of the time you can safely replace meshes and textures without even closing the game - just changing cells so the game reloads it. If the mod adds a player home, or a dungeon, or a cell that didn't exist in the vanilla game, you obviously don't want to uninstall the mod while you're in that cell or the game won't know where to put you. The game's cells do reset after a certain amount of time, but obviously not while you're in them. There are a few mods that take advantage of this feature in the uninstall process.

 

It's always a good idea to understand why you're doing what you're doing, but most of the time you should be safe following the instructions.

 

There is a tool out there (I’ve got it installed I think) called the save game script cleaner. Is that something we should be using once in awhile or only for severely bloated saves? My save size is ~29k right now with 1000 hours in on this play through (yes it is a lot – this is my test bed for mods).

 

I suppose it should be a consideration whenever you uninstall a mod. However, while I know the people who developed those tools tried to make it as intuitive and user-friendly as possible, you can absolutely cause damage to your save if you use those tools the wrong way. That's why most of them make a backup of your save.

 

Save bloating was a bigger deal back before we had so many tools to deal with it. If you run the game with SKSE, for example, it will automatically "debloat" your save to some extent as you're playing. If I were you, I'd just run it whenever I have a problem or find a reason to.

 

What bloats the esp count is patches. A substantial mod might have three, four, or more each with its esp. Are you suggesting though that I could merge all my weapon mods into a single esp (given I don’t plan on removing any of those)? Nice, but with updates I would have to rebuild the merge. Par for the course I suppose.

 

Patches are usually a good candidate to merge. They're often relatively simple plugins. As you've noted, any updates or changes or removal of a mod you're patching will require you to redo it. That's why I mentioned weapons and outfits as they don't tend to get updated over time, and if they do it's often a change in the mesh or texture and not always the plugin.

 

As you can tell, I don't like making generalities like "all weapons can be merged," since every mod is different. But, if it's a simple mod that just sticks a sword in a chest outside breezehome or makes you craft it, then yeah, you can probably merge it.

 

You didn’t mention Wryebash and the bashed patch. A lot of material to cover I know. One problem I am am having with all these tools is they overlap in function. Would be nice to have a recommend list somewhere with what each tool is best to be used for.

 

 

 

Wryebash can also be used as a mod manager. I've never personally used it for that, but some do. NMM served me just fine as a mod user and I'm sure Vortex will be more of the same. I use Mod Organizer because the way it isolates individual mods is a tremendous help in mod development - which is mostly how I interact with the game. As a mod user, it's a little more powerful, but not as user friendly and can't achieve any results you couldn't also achieve in a different type of setup.

 

When it comes to those three, it's mostly a personal preference. Those overlap by nature of "competing" with each other. Most tools have a specific purpose in mind. FNIS makes animation mods work. Tes5Edit is a tool to modify plugins. Bodyslide generates meshes. Etc.

 

 

 

Anyhow it appears tat the bashed patch is used to merge leveled lists otherwise the latest mod in the load order that impacts leveled lists will overwrite what came prior and thus leave stuff out. So my understanding is use Wrybash to make a bashed patch when you install a mod that affects leveled lists right?

 

 

 

Leveled lists.... So, the reason for patches in general is that the game will only read an entry once. If Mod A gives Lydia fluffy ears and a tail and Mod B changes her name to "Fluffy," only one of those mods is going to take effect. The game will either read one entry or the other, and whichever one is loaded last (bottom of your load order) will "win" the conflict and take effect. A patch would be created to do both of those things in the same plugin, often setting both of those plugins as Masters so that they're always loaded first, or otherwise set up to "win" the conflict and add both effects at the same time.

 

Leveled lists follow the same criteria, except waaaay more mods want to use them. It's such a compatibility nightmare that most mod authors tend to avoid adding things to leveled lists in general just to avoid it. Even if you wanted to make patches for it, to account for every possible combination of weapon, armor, ingredient or whatever type of mod you're talking about would be impossible. The bashed patch was designed to alleviate this problem in the same way a compatibility patch does, except you run it yourself and it generates a patch specific to your load order.

 

You can also add, remove, and reset leveled lists via script, which a bashed patch does not account for and I'm not going to get into because almost nobody does it... because they don't like train wrecks. As I said, most mod authors simply don't add things to the leveled list just to avoid the whole thing. If you are determined to add mods that make changes to your leveled lists, the bashed patch is probably your best chance at getting things to work how you want, and most mod authors are well-aware of this and will try to make things work as well as they can. Just know, it is a fragile system that can be broken rather easily.

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Well a late response is still a good response since it is free education.

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It's always a good idea to understand why you're doing what you're doing, but most of the time you should be safe following the instructions.

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A ‘clean save’ then is simply a risk reduction practice and it doesn’t do entirely what the name implies. The only real ‘clean save’ is the save before the mod was installed. A ‘clean save’ amounts to stopping the mod script if that’s available in the MCM to do, and then existing the cell or cell(s) the mod affects (ie, where its script run like outside vs inside) along with anything of the player’s possessions (ie, move your spouse if you want to update the player home) and making a new save. Back in game there is a wait time also to allow the changed cells to reset.

 

Is ‘updating’ basically the same as uninstalling and installing such that all the same precautions apply? The updating procedure with NMM (should have learned MO from the beginning but here we are) seems not well explained and is inconsistent with its message ‘Earlier version of mod already installed. Do you wish to update?’ Updating is where more of my focus is. I’ve actually uninstalled very few mods.

 

Identifying a mod where all of this should be done or not seems to be key (not every mod author points this out, so that source is not dependable especially with earlier mods). One could assume every mod is like this although that seems a bit tedious and excessive. Obviously mods without an .esp seem fairly safe to uninstall or update as needed without too much worry right? But not all mods with an .esp are scripted either. That is the crossover point that is a bit fuzzy.

 

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I suppose [save Game Script Cleaner] should be a consideration whenever you uninstall a mod. . .

 

Save bloating was a bigger deal back before we had so many tools to deal with it. If you run the game with SKSE, for example, it will automatically "debloat" your save to some extent as you're playing. If I were you, I'd just run it whenever I have a problem or find a reason to.

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I haven’t used SGSC in ‘anger’ yet – just opened in once. This begs the question though of when should I be concerned about the save file size. You didn’t comment on my 29k size which has increased to that point recently with Frostfall, Hunterborn, RND2, etc.

 

FINIS should be run every time a new animation is installed I take it and Wryebash to update the bashed patch anytime a mod updates the leveled lists.

 

Well thanks for your help again. As you can see my questions are ringing out. There are mixed messages from all the sources on the web, sometimes to the point of polar opposites. I’ve seen multiple times that one is stuck with the mods one adds, do not remove them or you’re just asking for trouble. And then Gopher comments in one of his videos that he is installing / uninstalling 50-100 mods a week. What’s the worst that can happen? One’s current save game is corrupted and one has to start a new game. If enough save games are available it is possible to go back prior to the problem. It’s good to know when the blowup happened and eliminate the mods or conflict that caused it. But the very worst case is starting with a fresh install and rebuilding one’s mod list.

 

I’ve had a few crashes but not near what others have reported. Many must just install mods helter skelter without any thought at all and that’s what gets one into serious trouble. Its hard to know what went wrong at that point because this built up over time without attention by the player. I can sympathize with the experts trying to help in this situation because its difficult to even know where to start.

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