Simple manual load ordering plz

[Tannin42]

Vortex uses its own userlist file so rules and priorities you set up in vortex do not affect LOOT when you run it as a separate application.

 

Also regarding "Per SoT mod author, this mod should be placed at the bottom or as close as the bottom, but LOOT is placing this mod right in the middle of my load order and this is not what I do not freaking understand at all.":

I feel a bit like a broken record, but: No plugin actually needs to be loaded at the bottom of your load order! Plugins need to be loaded relative to the plugins they have record conflicts with. If none of the plugins loaded after SoT conflict with it then the load order LOOT generates is fine. Even if there is a conflict there is a good change LOOT got it right automatically.

 

When a mod author writes that their plugin should go to the bottom of the list that is a simplified version of saying "load after all plugins that my plugin conflicts with". The mod author doesn't expect you to open every plugin in xedit and check for records manually so they give you simplified instructions that are likely to work, but that doesn't mean that that is the only way that plugin will work.

 

LOOT however does analyse plugins individually so it does know which plugins conflict. Again, there is a very good chance that LOOT gets your load order right. Just trust it and overrule it only if you actually experience a problem in-game.

 

Finally: Vortex uses an integrated version of LOOT to sort your plugins so you do not need to run LOOT outside Vortex.

[sopmac45]

Vortex uses its own userlist file so rules and priorities you set up in vortex do not affect LOOT when you run it as a separate application.

 

Also regarding "Per SoT mod author, this mod should be placed at the bottom or as close as the bottom, but LOOT is placing this mod right in the middle of my load order and this is not what I do not freaking understand at all.":

I feel a bit like a broken record, but: No plugin actually needs to be loaded at the bottom of your load order! Plugins need to be loaded relative to the plugins they have record conflicts with. If none of the plugins loaded after SoT conflict with it then the load order LOOT generates is fine. Even if there is a conflict there is a good change LOOT got it right automatically.

 

When a mod author writes that their plugin should go to the bottom of the list that is a simplified version of saying "load after all plugins that my plugin conflicts with". The mod author doesn't expect you to open every plugin in xedit and check for records manually so they give you simplified instructions that are likely to work, but that doesn't mean that that is the only way that plugin will work.

 

LOOT however does analyse plugins individually so it does know which plugins conflict. Again, there is a very good chance that LOOT gets your load order right. Just trust it and overrule it only if you actually experience a problem in-game.

 

Finally: Vortex uses an integrated version of LOOT to sort your plugins so you do not need to run LOOT outside Vortex.

 

 

Thanks so much Tannin, but if do not mind, I got another question please :

 

>>LOOT however does analyse plugins individually so it does know which plugins conflict. Again, there is a very good chance that LOOT gets your load order right. Just trust it and overrule it only if you actually experience a problem in-game.<<

 

I've always used LOOT ( with NMM before ), however, how do I overrule LOOT if I experience a problem in-game ? By sorting my load order with Vortex after I discover there is a problem ?

 

And also Tannin, can you explain to me please why Vortex ( if it uses an integrated version of LOOT ), places the order in the way we tell it and LOOT does not ?

 

I do have the sense that in your response you are encourage me to trust LOOT and I am not against that at all because as I said before, I have using LOOT since I started modding my games ( more than 2 years ago via NMM ) but what happens when I, as a player, would like to have a mod in some place that LOOT is not letting me to place it at ? With NMM, this was not a problem at all and I am not trying to say Vortex should be like NMM, I am just trying to understand what is behind the curtain so I can understand it better.

 

Will my game runs my mods in the way they were sorted last ? Let' say that I run LOOT and I do not like what is doing with my load order and then I decide to sort my load order via Vortex, will my game goes with the latter or not ? Is that the way to override what LOOT did in the beginning ?

 

Thanks again for your kind and please forgive me if I am asking too many questions or if at this point I am not understanding ( still ) some things. I do not want to do things without knowing, please understand that and I appreciate your help more than you know. :cool:

[Tannin42]

I've always used LOOT ( with NMM before ), however, how do I overrule LOOT if I experience a problem in-game ? By sorting my load order with Vortex after I discover there is a problem ?

 

Yes, if you set a dependency rule (x after y) loot/vortex will obey that over what it determined algorithmically. Again: When you set up rules in Vortex only Vortex will obey them, if you want to use loot directly you have to set your rules inside loot.

 

And also Tannin, can you explain to me please why Vortex ( if it uses an integrated version of LOOT ), places the order in the way we tell it and LOOT does not ?

 

I think I did answer that: Vortex uses its own userlist file to store rules so dependencies you set up inside vortex will only affect the order when you sort with vortex.

Maybe this makes it clearer: Vortex currently ships with (integrated) loot v0.12. With loot v0.13 the format of the userlist/masterlist changes so if you use the current vortex and your own loot installation is the new version those files wouldn't be compatible. If you use loot 0.12 you can just copy the userlist from vortex to loot.

I do have the sense that in your response you are encourage me to trust LOOT and I am not against that at all because as I said before, I have using LOOT since I started modding my games ( more than 2 years ago via NMM )

Obviously I think you should trust loot, that's why I included it as the primary way of sorting your load order.

but what happens when I, as a player, would like to have a mod in some place that LOOT is not letting me to place it at ?

 

You, as the user, absolutely do not care about where the plugin is placed - or rather: you should not. What is it to you, the user, if mod a is loaded before mod b?

It appears to me like users feel they need to do something with the plugins list just because it's there.

If I created a screen that lists all dds files, would you then also start to rearrange those?

What you should care is if your game runs stable. Your game runs stable when all record conflicts are resolved in a valid way (of which there are many, so there isn't one right order).

And if that is not the case after loot ordered your plugins you can resolve it by creating a dependency rule.

In the (very unusual case) that you need a plugin to load at a specific mod index (usually only if you're a mod author) you can lock the mod index of that plugin for ultimate control.

A plugin list with manual drag&drop order like MO, NMM or Wrye Bash have was always a very simple crutch because it requires you to do the difficult part of figuring out the right order on your own.

If manual drag&drop is a wooden leg, Vortex now gives you a high-tech bionic leg. And people complain that it makes their life too easy because they got used to walking being a pain.

Will my game runs my mods in the way they were sorted last ? Let' say that I run LOOT and I do not like what is doing with my load order and then I decide to sort my load order via Vortex, will my game goes with the latter or not ? Is that the way to override what LOOT did in the beginning

 

 

Yes, the game will always use the last load order. Not sure if I even understood the question correctly, what other load order would it use? All tools managing the load order will overwrite each other so the last tool that created a load order wins.

[LawrenceFB]

Okay, let's see if I can clear this up for you.

 

 

 

The MODS tab determines what files overwrite what, and is often called the "install" order. If two mods try to install the same file they are said to be in "conflict". This tab is where you determine which file should be loaded last, overriding any previous mods copy. The Dependencies column shows you if there are unresolved conflicts with a red bolt that turns green once you set a rule. The order you see the MODS on this tab have no bearing on how the game sees or loads them. Any sorting here is strictly for human viewing.

 

The PLUGINS tab shows the order of the ESM and ESP plugin files. This is where sorting, like using LOOT, is done. You can control the sorting manually by using Dependencies (i.e. load plugin B after A) or with priorities. On this tab the Load Order column is how the game actually loads the files. When sorted on this column, you see the plugins in the order the game will load them. Again, you can sort on any column, but the game will only be concerned with the Load Order column.

 

I hope that clears up things for you.

Cheers!

 

 

 

Ok you and Tannin have me confused again.

 

My current understanding is that load order on the 'Mods' tab affects which loose files are loaded on a last loaded wins. This being controlled by Vortex and the files it chooses to place in the data directory. Also any loose file wins over any file in a .bsa.

 

Then we come to the plugin tab. Here the mod index indicates the order and which .esm,.esp,.esl, etc are loaded. If there is are .bsa associated with the plugin they are loaded (unless affected by some voodoo .ini file) in the same order. So if you have resources in .bsa that you want to resolve, and Loot rules allow it, you can use user rules to choose the winning files. But you have no way, as the game is designed, of overriding any loose file with a file in a .bsa.

 

From what I have read in comments elsewhere there are subtle difference between different Bethesda games and if there are I have failed to get an explanation of what they are and to be honest I only care about Skyrim and SkrimSE at the moment. I do hope to have another go at Oblivion in the future.

 

The load order has always confused me. This seems to reflect the order plugins would load if they where all enabled. For me the sorting of this column is a hit and miss affair where only about half the time does it bear any relationship with the mod index. Indeed it often has Skyrim.esp at a load order of 20 or more. I have always taken this as a UI issue and relied on the mod index.

 

True to the nature of such things, when I started Vortex to get a screen shot to demonstrate the problem it worked perfectly. I would have reported it but this only seems to happen when I and double checking things before continuing to play the game.

 

Am I wrong in thinking only the .bsa of enabled plugins are loaded?

[SkunkMonkey]

 

The load order has always confused me. This seems to reflect the order plugins would load if they where all enabled. For me the sorting of this column is a hit and miss affair where only about half the time does it bear any relationship with the mod index. Indeed it often has Skyrim.esp at a load order of 20 or more. I have always taken this as a UI issue and relied on the mod index.

 

Am I wrong in thinking only the .bsa of enabled plugins are loaded?

 

 

The Load order and Mod Index have a few differences.

 

Load Order starts at the first ESP after all the ESMs and is usually displayed in base-10. It counts all plugins, active or not.

 

Mod Index starts at the first loaded file and only counts *active* ESMs and ESPs and is usually displayed in base-16. This is basically created from the Load Order, skipping inactive plugins. Manually setting this value is only something you would do for testing, normally you don't need to worry about it. This is also the value that puts the hard limit on active plugins at 255.

 

As to your question, you are correct. Short of an ini edit, BSAs are only loaded for active plugins with matching names.

[sopmac45]

 

I've always used LOOT ( with NMM before ), however, how do I overrule LOOT if I experience a problem in-game ? By sorting my load order with Vortex after I discover there is a problem ?

 

Yes, if you set a dependency rule (x after y) loot/vortex will obey that over what it determined algorithmically. Again: When you set up rules in Vortex only Vortex will obey them, if you want to use loot directly you have to set your rules inside loot.

 

And also Tannin, can you explain to me please why Vortex ( if it uses an integrated version of LOOT ), places the order in the way we tell it and LOOT does not ?

 

I think I did answer that: Vortex uses its own userlist file to store rules so dependencies you set up inside vortex will only affect the order when you sort with vortex.

Maybe this makes it clearer: Vortex currently ships with (integrated) loot v0.12. With loot v0.13 the format of the userlist/masterlist changes so if you use the current vortex and your own loot installation is the new version those files wouldn't be compatible. If you use loot 0.12 you can just copy the userlist from vortex to loot.

I do have the sense that in your response you are encourage me to trust LOOT and I am not against that at all because as I said before, I have using LOOT since I started modding my games ( more than 2 years ago via NMM )

Obviously I think you should trust loot, that's why I included it as the primary way of sorting your load order.

but what happens when I, as a player, would like to have a mod in some place that LOOT is not letting me to place it at ?

 

You, as the user, absolutely do not care about where the plugin is placed - or rather: you should not. What is it to you, the user, if mod a is loaded before mod b?

It appears to me like users feel they need to do something with the plugins list just because it's there.

If I created a screen that lists all dds files, would you then also start to rearrange those?

What you should care is if your game runs stable. Your game runs stable when all record conflicts are resolved in a valid way (of which there are many, so there isn't one right order).

And if that is not the case after loot ordered your plugins you can resolve it by creating a dependency rule.

In the (very unusual case) that you need a plugin to load at a specific mod index (usually only if you're a mod author) you can lock the mod index of that plugin for ultimate control.

A plugin list with manual drag&drop order like MO, NMM or Wrye Bash have was always a very simple crutch because it requires you to do the difficult part of figuring out the right order on your own.

If manual drag&drop is a wooden leg, Vortex now gives you a high-tech bionic leg. And people complain that it makes their life too easy because they got used to walking being a pain.

Will my game runs my mods in the way they were sorted last ? Let' say that I run LOOT and I do not like what is doing with my load order and then I decide to sort my load order via Vortex, will my game goes with the latter or not ? Is that the way to override what LOOT did in the beginning

 

 

Yes, the game will always use the last load order. Not sure if I even understood the question correctly, what other load order would it use? All tools managing the load order will overwrite each other so the last tool that created a load order wins.

 

 

 

>> ""You, as the user, absolutely do not care about where the plugin is placed - or rather: you should not. What is it to you, the user, if mod a is loaded before mod b?

It appears to me like users feel they need to do something with the plugins list just because it's there.

If I created a screen that lists all dds files, would you then also start to rearrange those? <<< ""

You are right about "users feel they need to do something with the plugins list just because it's there" .... for instance, I come from NMM ( not experience whatsoever with MO2 at all ) and in NMM, I dragged/dropped my plugins where ( per mod author's recommendation ) should be, and LOOT was recognizing/respecting that decision. I come to Vortex thinking that I am able to do the same, with the only difference that dragging/dropping a plugin within my load order is based on dependencies, so, here is the problem : I use dependencies on all my plugins .... based on what ? Based on, that I am choosing the same plugins load order that I used back in NMM because back then, it was working without any CTD ( perhaps one every 13-17 hours play time which is acceptable ) ... for example :

- Lanterns of Skyrim

- Unofficial Patch

- Modern Brawl

- Cutting Room

- SMIM

- Ice Penguin Map .... etc, etc, etc

.... at the end of my load order :

- Zed Unlimited Enchanting

- My Home is your Home

- Flower Girls

.... I am just giving you a very short example and everybody knows, the above load order is the correct one ....

... since Vortex came up, I am following the same pattern in my load order because I know that before, with NMM, it was properly working. In Vortex I can set that pattern by using dependencies so this probably give you an insight, at least from my standpoint, why, users, including myself, are using all dependencies to setup our load order. Try to put yourself in my shoes and you will see my point. You probably would do the same.

At the same time, we have LOOT and now you explained to me the situation with the versions being different and that is why LOOT is choosing a different load order. No problem about that at all and thank you for explaining. Now I know what to do, but I wanted to give you my feedback so you can understand why we are doing that. There are thousands that still have not used Vortex because they are waiting for Beta release but I guess that Beta will not change the logic Vortex works.

Based on your above quote ( ""You, as the user, absolutely do not care about where the plugin is placed - or rather: you should not. What is it to you, the user, if mod a is loaded before mod b? "" ), this may be a problem, a learning curve and somehow, difficult to embrace in the beginning for thousands of us. I admit, it has been difficult to me and I am very happy that you are helping me to understand it.

Now, based on the above Tannin, I would like to recap what I need to do so please correct me :

PATH A :

1 - Install my mods and resolve conflicts in the MODS tab ( perfectly fine with this homework and there should not be that many unless the user install 255 or more, I won't ... ). I LOVE THIS BTW !!!

2 - PLUGINS tab ... use dependencies ONLY for those plugins I would like to place in certain places based EXCLUSIVELY on whatever the mod author's recommendation are ( right or wrong ? Please advise )

3 - SORT the plugins after finishing using those dependencies and go with this load order and forget about LOOT

PATH B :

- Do step 1 ( no questions about it and it is a must to do thing )

- Forget about dependencies and let the load order being setup in the PLUGINS tab by Vortex. Leave everything as has been deployed by Vortex. DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING and DO NOT worry how the load order looks like.

- Run LOOT and let LOOT decides what to do with the load order ( I guess till Vortex plugin version matches LOOT version ), trust it and play. If something goes south, then use dependencies in the PLUGIN section, sort it and forget about LOOT.

Tell me now please, if I am correct on both procedures or not. I will go with PATH B but I wanted to be sure I have it right. Please advise.

Please try to understand me and put yourself in my shoes and thank you for your previous explanation and for the upcoming. I am very sure that will help hundreds of other users. Sorry to bother you and I appreciate your patience. :cool:

P.S. Sorry, I am very detailed oriented !

[Tannin42]

Ok you and Tannin have me confused again.

 

My current understanding is that load order on the 'Mods' tab affects which loose files are loaded on a last loaded wins. This being controlled by Vortex and the files it chooses to place in the data directory. Also any loose file wins over any file in a .bsa.

 

Then we come to the plugin tab. Here the mod index indicates the order and which .esm,.esp,.esl, etc are loaded. If there is are .bsa associated with the plugin they are loaded (unless affected by some voodoo .ini file) in the same order. So if you have resources in .bsa that you want to resolve, and Loot rules allow it, you can use user rules to choose the winning files. But you have no way, as the game is designed, of overriding any loose file with a file in a .bsa.

All of that is correct, at least for the newer games.

 

From what I have read in comments elsewhere there are subtle difference between different Bethesda games and if there are I have failed to get an explanation of what they are and to be honest I only care about Skyrim and SkrimSE at the moment. I do hope to have another go at Oblivion in the future.

To be perfectly honest, there are people better suited to answer this than me, but in general the changes are more in the details, for example how you tell the game in which

order to load plugins or what gets stored in your save game (e.g. Skyrim copies scripts to your savegame so changing the install order later or disabling a mod may not have

an affect on it or break the savegame in some way, earlier games were more robust in that regard).

 

The load order has always confused me. This seems to reflect the order plugins would load if they where all enabled. For me the sorting of this column is a hit and miss affair where only about half the time does it bear any relationship with the mod index. Indeed it often has Skyrim.esp at a load order of 20 or more. I have always taken this as a UI issue and relied on the mod index.

Sorting tools like loot will order all plugins, whether they are enabled or not, but only an enabled plugin can have a mod index. On the other hand, the

base game files (e.g. Skyrim.esm) are loaded by the game engine in a certain order so they have a fixed mod index, so Vortex doesn't show a load order for them because

you can't affect the order in which they are loaded. That's why I don't see how skyrim.esm should appear at load order 20, it doesn't have a load order at all.

 

Am I wrong in thinking only the .bsa of enabled plugins are loaded?

Yes, the bsas of disabled plugins aren't loaded.

[Tannin42]

and LOOT was recognizing/respecting that decision

No it didn't. Afaik LOOT tries to minimize the changes to the previous load order but LOOT knows nothing about your 'decisions' so it can't take them into

account when doing its ordering. If it had any incentive to change the order (a master-dependency, rule or priority) it would ignore your

custom load order. Because, again: LOOT can not know which part of the load order you adjusted manually and intentionally.

 

That's one big advantage of rules: When there is a rule you know that there was intend behind setting that rule.

 

I come to Vortex thinking that I am able to do the same, with the only difference that dragging/dropping a plugin within my load order is based on dependencies, so, here is the problem : I use dependencies on all my plugins .... based on what ? Based on, that I am choosing the same plugins load order that I used back in NMM because back then, it was working without any CTD ( perhaps one every 13-17 hours play time which is acceptable )

This is such a bad idea... The point of rules is to resolve specific conflicts that you know about, not to enforce one specific order.

I can imagine how frustrating the dependency system is if you're using it like that, but that's not what it was designed for.

If used properly I'm fairly certain almost no one will need more than maybe 5 rules, no matter how large their load order is.

 

Which

 

- Lanterns of Skyrim

- Unofficial Patch

- Modern Brawl

- Cutting Room

- SMIM

- Ice Penguin Map .... etc, etc, etc

.... at the end of my load order :

- Zed Unlimited Enchanting

- My Home is your Home

- Flower Girls

 

.... I am just giving you a very short example and everybody knows, the above load order is the correct one ....

Then everybody is wrong.

I'm not sure how often I said it: There are many valid load orders so there can't be "the correct one". This is "a correct load order". One of many.

 

... since Vortex came up, I am following the same pattern in my load order because I know that before, with NMM, it was properly working. In Vortex I can set that pattern by using dependencies so this probably give you an insight, at least from my standpoint, why, users, including myself, are using all dependencies to setup our load order. Try to put yourself in my shoes and you will see my point. You probably would do the same.

No, I wouldn't do the same and fortunately, most Vortex users don't.

I would try to understand how the tool is supposed to work and see if it does work as intended.

 

Now I know what to do, but I wanted to give you my feedback so you can understand why we are doing that.

Trust me, I know why you're doing it. I knew people would be thinking like this when we initially decided to go down this route, but - and I'm sorry for being this direct - it is your mistake and your loss.

Vortex ordering works and if used properly it saves you a lot of work. Trying to use vortex dependencies to enforce one specific load order is like

trying to force a square through a circle. The fact it's hard should give an indication that the approach is wrong and there may be another hole, but some users instead

assume that, since they've always used squares, the hole must be wrong.

 

Now, based on the above Tannin, I would like to recap what I need to do so please correct me :

 

PATH A :

 

1 - Install my mods and resolve conflicts in the MODS tab ( perfectly fine with this homework and there should not be that many unless the user install 255 or more, I won't ... ). I LOVE THIS BTW !!!

2 - PLUGINS tab ... use dependencies ONLY for those plugins I would like to place in certain places based EXCLUSIVELY on whatever the mod author's recommendation are ( right or wrong ? Please advise )

3 - SORT the plugins after finishing using those dependencies and go with this load order and forget about LOOT

 

PATH B :

 

- Do step 1 ( no questions about it and it is a must to do thing )

- Forget about dependencies and let the load order being setup in the PLUGINS tab by Vortex. Leave everything as has been deployed by Vortex. DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING and DO NOT worry how the load order looks like.

- Run LOOT and let LOOT decides what to do with the load order ( I guess till Vortex plugin version matches LOOT version ), trust it and play. If something goes south, then use dependencies in the PLUGIN section, sort it and forget about LOOT.

Both are wrong.

 

CORRECT PATH:

1. Like you said: Install mods, resolve conflicts only when there are conflicts

2. Plugins: enable plugins if necessary. Use dependencies only if you have problems in-game. Then, and only then, try to figure out which plugin(s) are the cause and see if their mod authors have provided compatibility instructions.

3. no step 3. Just leave auto-sort enabled and you don't need another step. do not run loot. You can click the sort button if you want to see the sorted list immediately but it's not necessary.

[sopmac45]

"" This is such a bad idea... The point of rules is to resolve specific conflicts that you know about, not to enforce one specific order.
I can imagine how frustrating the dependency system is if you're using it like that, but that's not what it was designed for.
If used properly I'm fairly certain almost no one will need more than maybe 5 rules, no matter how large their load order is. ""

​>> I am happy for my mistakes since that is the only way to learn, so If I have done 100 mistakes, now I know there are 100 ways not to deal with Vortex. You are right, I do not have that many rules setup in my MODS tab and it has been very frustrating dealing with dependencies in the PLUGINS tab because of my wrong way to handle them. Thank you.

 

"" Trust me, I know why you're doing it. I knew people would be thinking like this when we initially decided to go down this route, but - and I'm sorry for being this direct - it is your mistake and your loss.
Vortex ordering works and if used properly it saves you a lot of work. Trying to use vortex dependencies to enforce one specific load order is like
trying to force a square through a circle. The fact it's hard should give an indication that the approach is wrong and there may be another hole, but some users instead
assume that, since they've always used squares, the hole must be wrong. ""

​>> I like straight to the point answers and I am happy that it is my mistake so I am learning and understanding how Vortex works and what to do from now on. Thanks.

 

""Both are wrong.

CORRECT PATH:
1. Like you said: Install mods, resolve conflicts only when there are conflicts
2. Plugins: enable plugins if necessary. Use dependencies only if you have problems in-game. Then, and only then, try to figure out which plugin(s) are the cause and see if their mod authors have provided compatibility instructions.
3. no step 3. Just leave auto-sort enabled and you don't need another step. do not run loot. You can click the sort button if you want to see the sorted list immediately but it's not necessary. ""

​>> I will do Tannin, believe me I will and this is exactly what I was looking for, some steps to follow to have a better stable game, after knowing certain things that I have learned in this thread. Thanks so much for your patience and your help.

[Rattledagger]

Use dependencies only if you have problems in-game.

Unless the game crashes immediately it can take many hours before you realises something is screwed-up, especially if you've not used the mod before. So if mod-author has said anything specific like "if you uses mod a, b and c, put them in this specific order and my mod in this order" I would expect mod-author does know what he's doing and I'll try following this order.

 

Now of course, many mod-author says "load last" and this advice I won't even try to follow.