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Where is a good place to discuss lore and other RPG elements?


tomomi1922

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It feels like we all discuss mods and technical how to in this forum now. We donât even talk about gameplay howto (like whatâs the best way to level up magic, where to find crossbow).

 

I am a history nut, and it bothers me that for the longest time I still carry many voids about backstory of the Elder scrolls series. I finished the game once, but frankly it doesnât fill me in with everything.

 

I have a vague idea of the geopolitical atmosphere in Skyrim thanks to wiki pages, but not the most solid. Like in the nutshell, is the Imperial the âfederal militaryâ and all these locations like Skyrim is only a state in a multi-state federation of a nation. So without this solid understanding, I really canât decide whether Imperial is the oppressive invading force or the Stormcloak is the separatist.

 

Where would be a good place to discuss this kind of thing?

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where to find crossbow

the dawnguard have them. mods will help improve the likelihood of actually getting one... they kinda suck honestly.

 

 

best way to level up magic

ever try leveling in an MMO? it's like that. honestly, I find one-handed weapons with spells in the off hand is the best way to go. use the starting healing spell during a fight to regen, flames or ice constant spells (the ones that activate and stay active as long as you keep the button pressed down) can also be used here. charge spells are great for when you are charging an enemy and then swapped out to a constant spell after use.

 

 

I am a history nut, and it bothers me that for the longest time I still carry many voids about backstory of the Elder scrolls series. I finished the game once, but frankly it doesnât fill me in with everything.

ask me anything I have a very good knowledge base on Elder Scrolls.

 

 

I have a vague idea of the geopolitical atmosphere in Skyrim thanks to wiki pages, but not the most solid. Like in the nutshell, is the Imperial the âfederal militaryâ and all these locations like Skyrim is only a state in a multi-state federation of a nation.

The Imperials are from Crydiil (the province you are in during ES IV Oblivion) and rule over the entire continent of Tamriel. they are in charge but mostly let the ruling class of each province deals with their own issues... though they do model in affairs and get involved during wars the reason for getting involved with wars is that the Imps have a proper army and being apart of the Empire means they will defend you during a crisis such as a civil war.

 

 

So without this solid understanding, I really canât decide whether Imperial is the oppressive invading force or the Stormcloak is the separatist.

no, the Stormcloaks are the bad guys "technically" in Skyrim. the Empire screwed over Skyrim because of the previous war with the High Elves (who by the way caused the issues in the first place by putting the Empire in a lose/lose situation where someone was getting screwed either way and for some reason this very obvious point is ignored by the Nords... who know about it...) the Stromcloaks though have good reason to be mad as they are being told it is illegal to worship their own gods... it's a tough situation with no one really in a great position.

 

 

Where would be a good place to discuss this kind of thing?

right here.... people discussing mods in this section are posting in the wrong section and need to go to Mod Talk.

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The way I see the the political atmosphere in Skyrim is this.

 

To me the Thalmor seem to be the oppressive invaders.

 

In the TES games I have played the Empire has been rather benevolent. Allowing the individual "states" and cultures to keep their traditions and ways of life, so long as there was a Unified Tamriel, which seems to be their main goal.

 

The Stormcloaks seem to view the Empire as ailing and week and no longer able to defend the freedoms of it's people.

 

The Elder Scrolls are purposefully full of this kind of moral ambiguity. It makes you think about the choices you make. It's one of the reasons I enjoy the game. As for the point of the conflict in Skyrim. I'd say that it makes a poignant statement about the tragedy of intolerance and war. There's a certain sadness in watching two peoples, neither of them really "wrong", fighting each other to defend what they believe in. Especially when the real enemy is winning it all.

 

Just my take on it. The lore in Elder Scrolls gets pretty deep. One could make quite a study of it.

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All you need to know honestly is that TES kind of revolves around duality.. starting with the primeval forces of light and dark, creation and void (Anu and Padomay). And on Tamriel, this duality mostly manifests itself as a conflict between Elves and Humans. Starting with their main gods, Auriel and Lorkhan. The spin on it from a human - specifically Nordic/Skyrim -- perspective is that Lorkhan is Shor for the Nords. A warrior type of god. While to the elves, he's a trickster and betrayer. It's like the same exact god is both Loki and Thor, depending on who you ask. This difference in opinion and/or misunderstanding has led to endless conflict, that keeps manifesting itself with slight differences throughout the ages. This is what is really behind the Talos controversy in the Skyrim story.

 

To make matters worse (or better, depending on who you ask), Lorkhan seems to manifest himself in Tamriel every so often and creates a pile of corpses. Talos was one of them. I suspect our Dragonborn is another form of him. And you yourself could actually play this eternal conflict out, as a sort of avatar of Shor. Or maybe in this eon, he's insane and actually siding with elves, depending on the player. It doesn't matter. For now, we do what is fun to us.. He'll just come back in another life and probably forget the compulsion (us, the player). Maybe he's so insane this time around that all he does is run around naked and collect cabbages. That particular player doesn't need to know any of this lore!

Edited by kthompsen
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I have a vague idea of the geopolitical atmosphere in Skyrim thanks to wiki pages, but not the most solid. Like in the nutshell, is the Imperial the âfederal militaryâ and all these locations like Skyrim is only a state in a multi-state federation of a nation.

The Imperials are from Crydiil (the province you are in during ES IV Oblivion) and rule over the entire continent of Tamriel. they are in charge but mostly let the ruling class of each province deals with their own issues... though they do model in affairs and get involved during wars the reason for getting involved with wars is that the Imps have a proper army and being apart of the Empire means they will defend you during a crisis such as a civil war.

 

 

So without this solid understanding, I really canât decide whether Imperial is the oppressive invading force or the Stormcloak is the separatist.

no, the Stormcloaks are the bad guys "technically" in Skyrim. the Empire screwed over Skyrim because of the previous war with the High Elves (who by the way caused the issues in the first place by putting the Empire in a lose/lose situation where someone was getting screwed either way and for some reason this very obvious point is ignored by the Nords... who know about it...) the Stromcloaks though have good reason to be mad as they are being told it is illegal to worship their own gods... it's a tough situation with no one really in a great position.

 

 

You silly, the crossbow and leveling magic were hypothetical questions.

 

This is something I am unable to wrap my head around: so Imperial is a race. They have been the ruling race ever since Tiber Septim (that I kept hearing about). Would this naturally create friction with other races like the Mongol would elevate their own people above all other races they ruled over, creating an inequality among other races "Why Imperials get to rule and tell us what to do, they don't know anything about our people and certainly care not about our own interest". Not suggestion Imperials act like Mongol, that is what I am not sure of. Or it is more loosely ruled like each province a vassal state and Cyrodil is a more symbolic head of power without a tight grip? The local lords still have strong say within their own provinces?

 

I honestly did not play the previous games. Many many years ago I was introduced to Morrowind but I was not quite into it. I even mistook it to be part of Neverwinter's Night or Baldur's Gate franchises. You know, early 2000, lack of proper Wikipedia, internet was anywhere near as expansive. I followed closely the Ultima series (but got to admit, very cheesy comparing to Elder Scrolls) and sadly they went down. Followed Warcraft series but Blizzard has less interest in RPG and everything fell flat after WoW. I was hooked onto Dragon Age and Skyrim. So I have some catching up to do.

 

The way I see the the political atmosphere in Skyrim is this.

 

To me the Thalmor seem to be the oppressive invaders.

 

In the TES games I have played the Empire has been rather benevolent. Allowing the individual "states" and cultures to keep their traditions and ways of life, so long as there was a Unified Tamriel, which seems to be their main goal.

 

The Stormcloaks seem to view the Empire as ailing and week and no longer able to defend the freedoms of it's people.

 

The Elder Scrolls are purposefully full of this kind of moral ambiguity. It makes you think about the choices you make. It's one of the reasons I enjoy the game. As for the point of the conflict in Skyrim. I'd say that it makes a poignant statement about the tragedy of intolerance and war. There's a certain sadness in watching two peoples, neither of them really "wrong", fighting each other to defend what they believe in. Especially when the real enemy is winning it all.

 

Just my take on it. The lore in Elder Scrolls gets pretty deep. One could make quite a study of it.

 

The Thalmor is an organization from the Almeri Dominion right? And what is the name of this nation that Skyrim is supposed to be a part of? So everyone, from Nord, Imperial, Breton, etc.. are supposed to be "countrymen". The elves are foreigners, or only Altmer? What about wood elves and Dark elves? What about Redguard? I know the Orcs are countryless nomads. I also know that a lot of the elf races, orcs, and falmers are roughly from the same origin (in contrast to other fantasies like LOTR and Warcraft). But I am still at loss with figuring out what this universe is like. How many real countries in the known world, now that we established Skyrim is more or less a province, a state within a federation, or a vassal state.

 

Now, you said the Empire has been benevolent to allow more autonomy within the political, cultural and religion aspects. But it also suggests that they are NOT originally one country, but a big event happened that propelled the Empire to be the ruling faction/race. Also, the name "Empire" is so damn ambiguous to be used to call a race of people :( And as someone mentioned, the Empire has been weak and unable to defend its people. Are they weak in governance (with corruption, injustice, dwindling economy), or weak against invading forces?

 

What gets to me is that the Nord constantly speak against the Imperial as an oppressive force against their own people. It suggests they are reluctant to be a part of this nation and would find any opportunity to break out. In reference to real world history, the Jurchen invaded China's Ming dynasty. And no matter how well the next Qing dynasty ruled the entire nation, Han Chinese always carried that feeling of oppression and ruled by foreigners. It was not until Qing dynasty was over that Chinese recognized the prosperity and progress of Qing dynasty. I see that resemblance here with the Nord unwillingness to submit to Cyrodil's rule, even the Imperial may not have been doing harm to Skyrim's people as a whole.

 

Certainly, in such political struggle, we always find people on both sides. The Jarl of Solitude certainly sided with the Imperial because it is within their best interest since the Empire already recognizes them as the de facto power in Skyrim. I can empathize with that. I can also empathize with how Solitude is considered "losing touch" to Nordic way of life. Nord people is more salvage and crude due to their harsh condition and way of life. They respect the warrior spirit. The High King and Solitude's way of life is more civilized (for lack of a better word) and refined. So it is quite predictable how Ulfric is able to gain support from his people to enable this rebellion and quite easily defeat the High King with or without the shout. This is why I tend to side with the Stormcloak in most cases, knowing how Ulfric may be a good warrior (a warmonger?) but perhaps a rather an unfitting ruler. I may not know what Ulfric's real intention is: fighting for the people or just taking advantage of the situation to further his status, but certainly, a lot of Stormcloak soldiers feel very righteous about gaining freedom and autonomy.

 

I haven't got into the deities and gods even they do exist. But unlike Greek mythologies where the gods strongly take sides, here in Skyrim I feel it is a rather down to earth political struggle like any political struggle we see in our real history.

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I haven't got into the deities and gods even they do exist. But unlike Greek mythologies where the gods strongly take sides, here in Skyrim I feel it is a rather down to earth political struggle like any political struggle we see in our real history.

 

 

No, no.. the gods are everywhere. The Aedra and Daedra play a constant part and have influence in the world. Only the Aedra don't manifest themselves, because they DIED in the creation of the world.. and kind of make up the "bones" of the universe. So they have an indirect influence.. in a sort of celestial and elemental way. But Daedra were the gods who didn't take part in the creation of the world, so they remain separate from it and can manifest in it. The last game Oblivion is literally a Daedra (Mehrunes Dagon) trying to establish his kingdom on this landscape. While in this game, you're the freakin Dragonborn and possibly an avatar of Shor/Lorkhan. This character has both Akatosh and Lorkhan nudging his destiny.

 

 

As for Elves, they call themselves Mer, as humans are "Man". Mer and Man. There's Atlmer, Dunmer, Orsimer, Falmer, etc.. Altmer are just one branch of the Mer, but consider themselves the purest. All of these elves came from the Aldmer (Ald--- with a D instead of T). The Aldmer as a people knew them are long gone, but the Altmer are reviving it in their own way.

 

The Mer are actually "gods" themselves in a way. Or rather, part of the original group that got tricked into creating the world. Many died in the process (the most powerful being the Aedra I mentioned above), but a lot of the smaller ones lost their vitality and became something less than they were. They decided to live with their fate, but always resented it. Over the generations though, their original nature was a thing of the past and we have the Elves today. The Elves that are the most resentful are the Altmer…. they seek to undo Creation and get things back to the state it once was. To them, Creation is a mistake. All of it. They specifically blamed the god Lorkhan for originally tricking the other gods into making Creation and killed him.. but the damage was already done.

 

No one truly knows where Men came from, but Men themselves believe they came into existence BECAUSE of Creation, and therefore consider Lorkhan their Creator and highest god. So this creates an endless conflict between Men and Mer. One side sees a Father and the other sees a Betrayer.

 

What may seem like mundane conflicts between mortals has something far larger underpinning them. And it keeps happening over and over again.

 

There's an outside lore book written by one of the Bethesda writers (Michael Kirkbride) that really sums it up, just with the title alone: "Shor Son of Shor". You don't even need to read it to understand the implications. It's like Groundhog Day.. where Shor (Lorkhan) is constantly at War against Auriel (Akatosh), reliving the conflict of Creation over and over and over and over again. Every age seems to have it's Shor coming out and building his empire.. only for Auriel to come out and try to kill him off. Whether it was Alessia and Pelinal who founded the first Empire and defeated the Elves.. Or Tiber Septim fighting the Aldmeri Dominion. And now it's playing out again with Skyrim in Rebellion, an appearance of a Dragonborn and a looming threat of the Thalmor.

 

As for Imperial and Nord conflict - that's a very small issue. The Nords just hate that the Imperials try to "play the middle". The Nords share one thing with the Altmer in a way.. They're both very black and white and prefer clearer enemies. They hate the Thalmor and the Thalmor hate them. Other races of Men are not so clear cut. Imperials have always had a history of cosmopolitanism and coexistence. The Bretons are literally Half-Elves and not fully Men (hence the stronger affinity with magic). While the Redguards don't even come from this planet. I hate to confuse you more, but they're a product of alternate dimensions and time travel. lol. But they're the closest allies to Nords. In the world they came from, they sort of WERE the Nords of that land and had their own conflict with Elves (the Sinistral Elves). I think the story goes that they finally killed these elves off, but the last few elves caused a castrophic event that shifted time itself and accidental shoved the Redguards in our dimension. Now the Redguards can't go back home, but they still remember things from their culture. They have completely different myths and gods.. but some of it has parallels to Tamriel's gods. And they have a bad history with Elves like Nords do.

Edited by kthompsen
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This is something I am unable to wrap my head around: so Imperial is a race. They have been the ruling race ever since Tiber Septim (that I kept hearing about). Would this naturally create friction with other races like the Mongol would elevate their own people above all other races they ruled over, creating an inequality among other races "Why Imperials get to rule and tell us what to do, they don't know anything about our people and certainly care not about our own interest". Not suggestion Imperials act like Mongol, that is what I am not sure of. Or it is more loosely ruled like each province a vassal state and Cyrodil is a more symbolic head of power without a tight grip? The local lords still have strong say within their own provinces?

Cyrodil is the ruling province but let the other provinces rule themselves for the most part as long as they pay their taxes and keep out of trouble. the Imps are able to rule though because there are a lot of them and they generally outnumber the other nations armies with ease.

 

 

The Thalmor is an organization from the Almeri Dominion right? And what is the name of this nation that Skyrim is supposed to be a part of? So everyone, from Nord, Imperial, Breton, etc.. are supposed to be "countrymen". The elves are foreigners, or only Altmer? What about wood elves and Dark elves? What about Redguard? I know the Orcs are countryless nomads. I also know that a lot of the elf races, orcs, and falmers are roughly from the same origin (in contrast to other fantasies like LOTR and Warcraft). But I am still at loss with figuring out what this universe is like. How many real countries in the known world, now that we established Skyrim is more or less a province, a state within a federation, or a vassal state.

Skyrim is a nation on the continent of Tamriel. Nords are countrymen everyone else (imps, Bretons, elves, and orcs) are foreigners. orcs have a country Orsinium. some are nomadic but not all. also, they are elves as well.

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:TamrielMap.jpg

 

 

Now, you said the Empire has been benevolent to allow more autonomy within the political, cultural and religion aspects. But it also suggests that they are NOT originally one country, but a big event happened that propelled the Empire to be the ruling faction/race. Also, the name "Empire" is so damn ambiguous to be used to call a race of people :sad: And as someone mentioned, the Empire has been weak and unable to defend its people. Are they weak in governance (with corruption, injustice, dwindling economy), or weak against invading forces?

think British Empire. they mean well but politics are politics and often people mistake them as being evil or controlling. Also imperials are normal human beings where as none of the other races are human at all.

 

 

I see that resemblance here with the Nord unwillingness to submit to Cyrodil's rule, even the Imperial may not have been doing harm to Skyrim's people as a whole.

some nords are just stubborn and need someone to blame for all their problems... you know.... like real life people.

 

 

Certainly, in such political struggle, we always find people on both sides. The Jarl of Solitude certainly sided with the Imperial because it is within their best interest since the Empire already recognizes them as the de facto power in Skyrim. I can empathize with that. I can also empathize with how Solitude is considered "losing touch" to Nordic way of life. Nord people is more salvage and crude due to their harsh condition and way of life. They respect the warrior spirit. The High King and Solitude's way of life is more civilized (for lack of a better word) and refined.

Solitude is the capital of Skyrim. everyone recognises this fact in game.

 

 

So it is quite predictable how Ulfric is able to gain support from his people to enable this rebellion and quite easily defeat the High King with or without the shout. This is why I tend to side with the Stormcloak in most cases, knowing how Ulfric may be a good warrior (a warmonger?) but perhaps a rather an unfitting ruler. I may not know what Ulfric's real intention is: fighting for the people or just taking advantage of the situation to further his status, but certainly, a lot of Stormcloak soldiers feel very righteous about gaining freedom and autonomy.

Ulfric is a jerk who murdered his friend because he couldn't handle or grasp the reason why the Imperials made the deal with the Thalmor and felt the current (previous as of the start of Skyrim) king wasn't doing anything to fix it... even though everything points to this not being the case at all and that no one outside the Thalmor were happy with the situation.

 

 

I haven't got into the deities and gods even they do exist. But unlike Greek mythologies where the gods strongly take sides, here in Skyrim I feel it is a rather down to earth political struggle like any political struggle we see in our real history.

the gods pick sides but are generally doing it because they view the people of Tamriel as nothing more than action figures. oh and the super god who is above them is just having a super weird and detailed dream... oh did I mention the whole world of Elder Scrolls is a dream some god is having?

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Imperials and Nords aren't really that different racial wise. They both came from "Nedes". The Nedes all came from Atmora (where they think they originated after Lorkhan created Tamriel). Some Nedes eventually migrated South and settled in Cyrodil, while the Northmen eventually moved out of Atmora themselves later and became the men of Skyrim. The Nords.

 

The men of the South didn't have good luck when they settled, as they eventually became overpowered and enslaved by the Elves there (the Ayleids). Tiber Septim didn't start the Empire. He started the THIRD empire WAAAAY after this. The first was started by Alessia, who was a slave girl, that eventually sparked a rebellion. She also got help from Wulfharth and the Nords in Skyrim. They were all just "human"/Nede and the same race. What really sealed the deal for Alessia is that a mysterious psychopathic terminator named Pelinal appeared in her time and became her Champion as well. He commited mass genocide on all elves and eventually Alessia established an Empire, which reigned for eons. After that died off, the process repeated and another empire was started by Reman Cyrodil -- from here we get the name of the region as Cyrodil. HE himself was seen as a god, like Alessia before.. but his empire died off eventually too. And then Tiber Septim came along and pretty much repeated the process. And now his empire has died off... and we're possibly seeing the beginnings of a new one.

 

This idea that Nords and Imperials are at odds is a very small issue. It's supposed to happen this way.. The moment that Men reach a compromising attitude towards Elves, their Empire generally falls apart. And the Tale of Creation seems to reset itself, where some new form of Lorkhan reignites everything and builds a bulwark against Auriel/Aldmeri/Thalmor/etc..

Edited by kthompsen
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