Where is a good place to discuss lore and other RPG elements?

[tomomi1922]

Only Nords are native to the entire Tamriel, including Hammerfell, Elsweyr, Cyrrodil, etc...? I hope this is a pure misunderstanding because I can't imagine Nord living way south in hot weather. Then the human races, Brenton, Redguard, Imperials, where are they from?

Ok, it seems that you are in favor of Tamriel as a unified nation and against separatism that Nords like Ulfric tries to promote. I am not against your belief, just wanting to examine other perspectives. In this case, what are the true problems of the Nord that they need to blame someone for, and try to use bloodshed to change. This is, of course, before dragons are still myth while the conflicts are well underway. Also, Uflric got himself captured so easily, and his lightly escorted entourage to the execution feels the Empire sees him as a common bandit. This may be an oversight on Bethesda but ... only 2-3 guards guarding the caravan? Oh while at it they stuck a horse thief and [whatever the player character was caught for] in the same caravan. To me, if Tulius wants Ulfric dead fast, he would plunge a sword into Ulfric right there. But they called for an execution instead. If the Stormcloak is strong enough to cause enough devastation throughout Skyrim with their rebellion, I am surprised they haven't got wind of Ulfric capture and would amass an army in attempt to rescue him. And Tulius would be more aware of this and probably have more defense than some 20 guards at most. Not to mention the horse thief could be an assassin infiltrating to help free Ulfric. A skilled assassin would get through that simple hand bind and probably use the guard's weapon to neutralize them and free Ulfric.

Oh I am well aware everyone knows and recognizes Solitude as capitol of Skyrim and the yarl there is the High King of Skyrim. What I said was, since they are already hold the highest power in Skyrim, the family has the least interest in going against the Imperial as Imperial force is assuring their power and status. And naturally they see Ulfric as enemy because Ulfric is a threat to overthrow them. Certainly, after High King was killed (whether murder or fair duel), the time for talk is over.

Regarding the Mer, I admit I am bias because of my general confusion with different series, including Everquest. I largely forgot everything about Everquest but their distribution of status among the races that are a lot similar to TES' races: High elves, Wood elves, dark elves, etc... But this is getting so confusing about Mer is, all these speak of creation and gods, the Altmer is not immortal (who lives forever) right? What is before the Creation? I am trying not to confuse this with the Big Bang here. So Altmer has high interest in carrying their prophecy and tradition, reviving the old, putting down Men who they feel gaining too much power. What about dark elves and wood elves? What are their interests and sides in all these? Or do they just try to stay out of everyone's affair? And the orcs (who is also a Mer people), I watched a lore on them regarding why they kept losing despite how strong their warrior tradition is. I truly believe they just try to get by and stay out of the overall political struggle if they can help it.

Is there any TES games where we go beyond Tamriel, like visiting a Mer nation?

So Alessia started a rebellion that founded the first Empire. So how were the geopolitical atmosphere in this era? What is it like before then? Reading from http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Alessia it says that the Nords King Harald conquered Skyrim at this time and proceeded to drive all elves out of Skyrim. So this suggests Nord is not even the native of Skyrim from way back. Does this mean Tamriel may have been elf nation from the beginning and Men just came in to conquer? I admit I get influence from either Dragon Age or one other series that Men is a young race with shorter life span but grow fast because of how fast they reproduce, and before long they try to conquer the known world to make more lands for themselves. This is why I really need to set the record straight.

I also presume that if all Mer came from 1 people, then all men races also came from 1 people. So Redguard, Brenton, Imperial, Nord should be quite alike.

[kthompsen]

I know it's confusing with multiple posts, but I just gave you a brief above about Men. Nords and Imperials are the SAME race. They were both originally from Atmora. Both eventually migrated out of Atmora - one further South and one in what is now called Skyrim. The only thing that makes Imperials different now is mostly just appearance and culture developing differently over thousands of years. The Imperials have generally been more cosmopolitan and tried to blend and live with others. It's only natural, since they resided in the center of Tamriel. But Nords were more isolated and kept up their rivalry with elves. This is the biggest - and the only truly meaningful difference between them. And the only reason why there's a Civil War now. One wants to play the Middle Road and compromise, one has no tolerance for compromise with the Thalmor.

 

And it's always been this way, going back to Wulfharth and Alessia clashing over things. It's why they even call their gods slightly different names: Because Alessia tried to eventually make peace with Elves and incorporated their pantheon of gods. While Nords and Wulfharth maintained a hatred for Elven gods... especially Auriel. It's why in the Nordic mind, Auriel is actually Alduin. Not the benevolent dragon Akatosh.

 

Redguards are from another dimension, but are basically the Nords of their own world. They're the closest natural allies and have had the same conflicts with Elves as strongly as Nords historically have... Bretons are HALF-Elves, as a result of mixed breeding. The Men of the South became either the Imperials as we know them now or ended up as the Bretons who eventually mated with Elves.

 

The Capitals of Skyrim really mean nothing. They've changed a lot of times over the years. Sometimes it's been Windhelm, sometimes Solitude.

 

 

There is no more pure "Mer" race, but Altmer consider themselves the purest variation. It's kind of a misnomer to call them a "race" per se anyhow - they were remnants of the old "original spirits" before Creation, the Et Ada. When the world was created, it was catastrophic for the Et Ada. Many died, many lost their former nature. This latter group that became mortal eventually became manifested in many forms - one of which was the Mer. They begrudgingly settled in the Summerset Isles. But over time, some ventured away and developed their own cultures. Mer who moved into Morrowind became the Chimer. Mer who moved North became Falmer. Mer who moved to the woods became Bosmer. The Orsimer were simply cursed.... and rejected by their own kind for being cursed. They've been homeless ever since, in conflict with Men and Elves who don't like them. The Chimer in Morrowind eventually became cursed themselves and are now the Dunmer… the Dark Elves. Bosmer lost touch as well and became more primitive and even cannibalistic. Only the Altmer consider themselves to truly live up to the original ideal now.

Edited May 28, 2018 by kthompsen

[tomomi1922]

I know it's confusing with multiple posts, but I just gave you a brief above about Men. Nords and Imperials are the SAME race. They were both originally from Atmora. Both eventually migrated out of Atmora - one further South and one in what is now called Skyrim. The only thing that makes Imperials different now is mostly just appearance and culture developing differently over thousands of years. The Imperials have generally been more cosmopolitan and tried to blend and live with others. It's only natural, since they resided in the center of Tamriel. But Nords were more isolated and kept up their rivalry with elves. This is the biggest - and the only truly meaningful difference between them. And the only reason why there's a Civil War now. One wants to play the Middle Road and compromise, one has no tolerance for compromise with the Thalmor.

 

And it's always been this way, going back to Wulfharth and Alessia clashing over things. It's why they even call their gods slightly different names: Because Alessia tried to eventually make peace with Elves and incorporated their pantheon of gods. While Nords and Wulfharth maintained a hatred for Elven gods... especially Auriel. It's why in the Nordic mind, Auriel is actually Alduin. Not the benevolent dragon Akatosh.

 

Redguards are from another dimension, but are basically the Nords of their own world. They're the closest natural allies and have had the same conflicts with Elves as strongly as Nords historically have... Bretons are HALF-Elves, as a result of mixed breeding. The Men of the South became either the Imperials as we know them now or ended up as the Bretons who eventually mated with Elves.

 

The Capitals of Skyrim really mean nothing. They've changed a lot of times over the years. Sometimes it's been Windhelm, sometimes Solitude.

 

 

There is no more pure "Mer" race, but Altmer consider themselves the purest variation. It's kind of a misnomer to call them a "race" per se anyhow - they were remnants of the old "original spirits" before Creation, the Et Ada. When the world was created, it was catastrophic for the Et Ada. Many died, many lost their former nature. This latter group that became mortal eventually became manifested in many forms - one of which was the Mer. They begrudgingly settled in the Summerset Isles. But over time, some ventured away and developed their own cultures. Mer who moved into Morrowind became the Chimer. Mer who moved North became Falmer. Mer who moved to the woods became Bosmer. The Orsimer were simply cursed.... and rejected by their own kind for being cursed. They've been homeless ever since, in conflict with Men and Elves who don't like them. The Chimer in Morrowind eventually became cursed themselves and are now the Dunmer… the Dark Elves. Bosmer lost touch as well and became more primitive and even cannibalistic. Only the Altmer consider themselves to truly live up to the original ideal now.

 

Thank you for taking the time. It is way more interesting learning by discussion than by simply reading Wiki. Youtube videos are also very intuitive too. It's not that I don't read, but, like Wiki, would give me some info on 1 topic, with some straggling info on related topics (like I found out how the Nord king conquered Skyrim via the page of the slave queen). From there I ended up opening 20-30 pages to chase a story. It's not complete, sometimes can be misleading. Naturally, wiki is not a book, so they are like summaries without concise information or elaboration. That is even before taking into account the accuracy of the source. I know it's fiction and "accuracy" doesn't matter. But since we already buy into the narrative, it's best to follow instead of trying to branch off and fill in whatever we want in our head.

 

So in the entirety of the peoples and races in Tamriel, I get a vibe from this discussion that neither sides of the conflict are truly evil, just conflict of interests that escalated badly. I reserve the thought that Ulfric is partly opportunistic to take advantage of the situation for his own social advancement. But in general, Nord people seem genuine. This is why the recruiting slogan is to ask for any "true sons and daughters of Skyrim" seem to work so well.

 

So that leaves the Thalmor. I always have high regard for elves in general because of their civility, mannerism, and wisdom (yeah, thanks to all these popular culture materials like LoTR). But beside how hideous they look in Skyrim (comparing to other games and movies), my limited encounters with the Thalmor are not all that positive. They are indeed egoistic and abusive. I would excuse the ego because of their advanced civilization (comparing to a bunch of Nord living like poor peasants in the dark age of Europe). And that the Thalmor thrives with their iron fists, typical of such type of institutions. So what exactly do they seek to gain in Skyrim? Do they want to fan the rebellion because weakening Empire/Skyrim means easier to control? Divide and conquer strategy? (Same thing US is doing in the last 30 years).

 

And I never found out the backstory of the player character? Just another random insignificant person got caught for the stupidest thing and lumped in with Ulfric, and then out of pure luck finding out him/her is a Dragonborn. I haven't truly played previous TES games to find out if this is their trend. Because in Fallout universe, the player character is always someone significant in the storyline.

[kthompsen]

The Thalmor are evil, but from their point of view, they're not evil at all. They are worse than most High Elves, but they share something all High Elves in general have: High Elves experience a distinct feeling of loss. Rather than taking joy in the world as it is, their whole mentality thinks Creation was a mistake and they think that they used to be something greater. They feel like people in exile.

 

OTOH, this desire to hate the world also has some plus sides. You RARELY can please a High Elf/Altmer. They find fault with EVERYTHING. But this also drives them to improve upon it. Where someone else may see a masterly crafted sword, the High Elf will come along and thumb his nose in the air and say it sucks. They can't help but see the flaws of life... but this also drives them to craft and perfect their arts like nobody else. This is why their weapons might be so highly desired. Or why they have so much knowledge on the secrets of magic. Or might have awe-inspiring architecture compared to others. Some may be arrogant, but they can also be great friends who just want others to learn these things themselves.

 

edit: You even see it in that High Elf in Rorikstead, if you ever talk to her. She's just a farmer, but she's arrogant about it... and insults you about how great she is planting cabbages. lol. There's something annoying, but also admirable about her at the same time, where she's devoted her life to perfect just "farming".

 

The Thalmor take it a step futher though. Rather than "perfecting" this world, they're hellbent on finding a way to reverse Creation itself and destroy the world.. rewind and kill everything there ever was, and live in some Idealize Primordial State. It's frightening if you think about it.

Edited May 31, 2018 by kthompsen

[tomomi1922]

The Thalmor are evil, but from their point of view, they're not evil at all. They are worse than most High Elves, but they share something all High Elves in general have: High Elves experience a distinct feeling of loss. Rather than taking joy in the world as it is, their whole mentality thinks Creation was a mistake and they think that they used to be something greater. They feel like people in exile.

 

OTOH, this desire to hate the world also has some plus sides. You RARELY can please a High Elf/Altmer. They find fault with EVERYTHING. But this also drives them to improve upon it. Where someone else may see a masterly crafted sword, the High Elf will come along and thumb his nose in the air and say it sucks. They can't help but see the flaws of life... but this also drives them to craft and perfect their arts like nobody else. This is why their weapons might be so highly desired. Or why they have so much knowledge on the secrets of magic. Or might have awe-inspiring architecture compared to others. Some may be arrogant, but they can also be great friends who just want others to learn these things themselves.

 

edit: You even see it in that High Elf in Rorikstead, if you ever talk to her. She's just a farmer, but she's arrogant about it... and insults you about how great she is planting cabbages. lol. There's something annoying, but also admirable about her at the same time, where she's devoted her life to perfect just "farming".

 

The Thalmor take it a step futher though. Rather than "perfecting" this world, they're hellbent on finding a way to reverse Creation itself and destroy the world.. rewind and kill everything there ever was, and live in some Idealize Primordial State. It's frightening if you think about it.

I will definitely visit that farmer. If I had more time, I would create mods that do more than just fighting. The whole reason behind "fat + pale skin = beautiful" because people in the past struggle constantly just to be fed, in every single civilization. So fat + pale skin = must be from a rich family, well pampered. The supermodels today with super skinny figure and tan skins would be looked down upon. And considering the ongoing war, even if Imperial gets supplied from else where, the Stormcloaks would have to get supplied from within Skyrim. A large group of people always in demand of food but doing nothing to replenish the food supply. So whether raid, pillage, purchase, or donation, the burden of food production is naturally higher in Skyrim at this point. The extreme cold weather makes farming so much harder. Siberia is definitely one of the worst place on earth to develop an agriculture economy. So, farming is ... very sought after. Although we average players will probably never get to experience that. Therefore, mods about smuggling, food storage robbery, caravan heist, to running a huge agricultural estate, playing supply and demand game with all the Holds in Skyrim (and either side of the war) would make our stay in Skyrim so much more immersive. Not to mention something like robbing the rich to feed the poor.

 

So, the Thalmor is absolute evil? They are seeking an Armageddon like event. Any good elves? At least have positive tendency about doing things for the greater good? If we play a high elf character, would this make any difference? I kept on subconsciously mixing TES with the lore of Dragon Age, so I hope I don't go off tangent. It is literately a story driven RPG. But at the same time, it's like rewatching old movies. While Skyrim is quite an open book, even more so than Fallout 4. I finished the game in FO4 and literately pondered "if there is anything meaningful left to perpetuate this life?"

 

 

 

[kthompsen]

The Thalmor are evil to most people's perspectives, but not from their own. They simply feel screwed - and see themselves as "fallen angels" of sorts.. and want to undo Creation and bring back the old gods at full power.

 

All elven branches differ on how they cope with this. The High Elves have next to little coping mechanisms. They're embittered and want perfection again. Dark Elves and Orcs learn to live with it... in fact, they sort of believe that being under a curse is a blessing in disguise and a test.. that they will end up stronger because of it. They've both abandoned the original elven gods and worship Daedra now. Dark Elves believe Daedra like Azura will reward them if they endure their sojourn, along with Orcs who believe in following Malacath and adhering to his code of honor. Wood elves cope in their own way and have become one with Creation and nature.

 

edit: Actually, there is a parallel with Dragon Age here. Solas pretty much thinks the same thing. The demise of his elven/spirit world created a seperation between the Fade and the material reality. The universe used to not have a Veil or a Fade - Life was all one thing, but it was disrupted, and elves lost their original spark and their gods are no more. Solas wants to undo all of that - no matter the millions he'll destroy in the process. From his perspective, he thinks he's simply taking back what was rightfully and originally the way the world was meant to be. But from everyone else's perspective, he's evil.

[tomomi1922]

A bit of talk about Dragon Age, I really dislike their hate for magic. TES people are skeptical about magic. Winterhold College is always blamed for something. But Dragon Age's people treat mage like violent mutants with super powers (in reference to Xmen) and literately lock them away and even create an order to oppress these people. And their further hate toward Blood Magic... Gee! Blood magic reminds me of Avatar the last air bender. It's an amazing show despite being written for kids. 4 peoples in the world have 4 distinctive ability to blend Air, Earth, Fire, and Water with their will. And water bender's ultimate ability is to blend ... blood, therefore able to physically control other people (only physical actions, not their minds).

Here is something that I still wonder about: Unlike LOTR, elves don't live forever. Most, if not all, of them were born with their culture and history passed down to them via education. So all these gripes about the Creation should not be as strong as the original people who were affected by it right? How many thousands of years already? Like American civil war's era people would never see black people as equal, no matter what. Nor the black people would ever dare to act "equal" to the white. But that era is gone, and although racism is still around, black enjoys a lot more equality comparing to that era. If anyone tries to bring up the essence of that era outside of history and literary context, talking down to black people like slaves, for starter, would be met with ridicule to actual punishment. Even all the stories in bible were once true (stretching it, but just say they are, for the sake of roleplaying), people these days treat them as stories and do not actually expect Jesus to rise from the dead somewhere and come save them from their miseries. So how would the elves from thousands of years not evolved from this kind of thinking, and accepting other races are ... other races. They don't have to like them, but they can't buy into the stories that others are a mistake of creation and must be exterminated (like how Hitler thinks).

Thalmor can do that, they can be a religious fanatic group. It can't be helped that the gods can communicate with the living beings and fan their fanaticism. But the entire peoples of the elves? Have any TES games ever had a narrative on the elf's side?

Btw, thanks for these discussions. I have learned a lot. RPG seems to be a dying breed. The industry is heading toward the freemium direction with almost entirely PvP element. Mass Effect 4 is exactly that. I bought the game with a lot of hope, and turned out all they ever pushed for that game is for players to go online to do some 5v5 co-op or PvP. I feel Mass Effect is lost. And the games everyone talk about are LOL, Heroes of the Storm, and Overwatch.

[kthompsen]

It's a bit different than education leading them down the wrong path. Some of these original spirits that the elves came from actually existed: The Elfoney. You even see some in Oblivion... spirits that had been trapped. Here's an elemental elfhoney, a guardian of water:

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-npc-Guardian_of_the_Water.jpg

 

These spirits manifested in various ways, but the elves come from a distinct branch who settled in the form we see now. It's not a stretch to say they may be telling the truth, since other types of these spirits have been known to others in Tamriel.

 

In any case, the elves believe the highest spirit of their kind also lived among them once - Auriel. Who knows? We do see his bow in the games, so maybe it's true.

 

Auriel is said to be a shard of Anu-iel, the primordial Time God. Much like Alduin is a shard (funnily, both want to undo Creation. Remember Alduin is also called the World Eater.. These are both aspects of the Time God, with Alduin manifesting in a more apocalyptic way). There are other aspects of the Time God, but you could say that these two represent the Past and the Future.

 

The thing is, we can actually SEE Alduin in Skyrim. He actually exists, so the Elves may be telling the truth about Auriel too.

 

--

 

You could say the whole setting first and foremost starts with the forces of Order and Chaos. The Two Primordial Forces are Anu and Padomay. These two eventually birthed what we now know as Time and Space. This isn't really about good or evil...at least at first. But an interplay between the abstract elements of the universe and the struggle to stabilize them. Time and Space gave rise to even more elements, which eventually led to the universe. But some see this universe as too expansive and dynamic and it sacrificed too much of what came before. Now they want to go back to a more static state of things. The spirits who taught this were all resentful representatives of "Time"/Anu-iel. To them, Space had stretched too far and made a mess. The elves are remnants (or children if you will) of the spirits who thought this way.

[tomomi1922]

That screenshot looks like Skyrim graphics instead of Oblivion. Or is it the TES Online?

Any race of elf is actually content (or content enough) with the current world and not seeking apocalypse? I presume an apocalyptic event is something that is likely to kill everyone, like an asteroid big enough to hit Tamriel that causes something like a massive explosion worse than Fallout 4. FO4 is actually not that bad, if we compare it to how a planet sized asteroid would collide, all the bunkers in FO universe would be like lunch boxes' metal against modern iron bombs or battleships' rounds. Where would the elves think they will go? Are they satisfied with knowing their lives will end and their physical bodies will vanish, with the promise of transformation to another form?

This does sound like religious fanatic talks, or those terrorists/extremists using religions like Islam to drive their suicide bombers: "You destroy our enemy you will manifest into a better form and transport to a better place". I know the gods in Tamriel do exist (and manifest themselves from time to time), like Alduin. Do they promise the elves anything? I can't imagine they are easily reachable to all citizens like making a phone call, so I doubt the elf population would all be so "well informed" toward their gods.

What about the humans? Are they shunned by all gods? Seen by elves as a mis-creation needing to be destroyed? Or there are gods fighting on their side as well? You can say I have not been paying attention, but I may just be utterly confused. Keeping up with the political and historical development in TES universe is quite hard enough for me. I need to find a youtube channel strictly documenting these history. Because I can't see myself playing Oblivion and all other TES games before.

[kthompsen]

Like I said, Lorkhan is Man's first and foremost "god". He came up with the plan of Creation and got the other gods to go along... But little did they know that it'd drain their life power and kill them. When they found out, they killed him too... but the damage had been done and the plan was set. But this is why the elven and human pantheons mainly differ: They have a different outlook on Lorkhan.

 

Kynareth is considered Lorkhan's companion and was more forgiving of him. In the Nordic pantheon she is Kyne and his wife. So to Nords, she's another of their main gods.

 

:D

 

edit: One way to put it is that Lorkhan is kind of like Prometheus, giving power to man by giving the gift of fire. Zeus and the other gods resented it and punished Prometheus. But humankind still remembers and honors Prometheus themselves. The Nords especially do, and have given him the name Shor. He's akin to Thor or something in the Nordic mindset. A heroic, warrior god.

 

On the other hand, from an elven perspective, Lorkhan is no hero like Prometheus. He's a trickster and bastard, like Loki (hence the name Lorkhan...which resembles it). From different perspectives, the same exact god is both Thor and Loki, depending on who you ask.

 

This also brings me to Talos and the plotline underlying Skyrim. Talos is an avatar of Shor/Lorkhan. The elves know fully well that if they can get rid of Talos, they can diminish Lorkhan's influence in the world again, and they'll be one bigger step ever closer to Un-Making the World and all that Lorkhan represents. Talos - by virtue of being an avatar of Shor and by his own life, represents the Power of Man. Only the Nords and the Thalmor truly know the extent that his status actually EFFECTS the world. He MAKES Lorkhan ALIVE again. With Talos, Lorkhan's influence over this world is reborn and his vision of Creation endures. This is why the Imperials are fools in the Nord's eyes.. because by giving up Talos, they'll eventually give up their own existence.

 

This is also why I think you, the Last Dragonborn, have come into the scene. The belief in Talos is dying, yet here Shor is again.. coming in the form of your character.. shaking the world up. I'm fairly convinced that our own character may very well be a new form of Talos, and will restore his place among the gods.. just by virtue of "mantling" Talos ourselves. The Greybeards say it themselves - "You are Ysmir now. The Dragon of the North. Hearken to it." The Greybeards originally said this to Talos himself. Shor is Ysmir is Talos is you in Skyrim (wrap your head around that!).

 

The short answer to your question is yes, the gods matter to humans in this world. Most especially Lorkhan.

 

Then again, I could be wrong. We'll know the next game, I suppose.