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Something I think we haven't noticed about the Stormcloak/Imperial


imperistan

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Uhhh without the whole treaty/Impending war/Talos ban thing.... the whole fight for independence is a moot point. There would be no reason to want to leave the Empire if those things did not happen.

 

The only ones who would benefit from a revolution from the Empire are the ones that are in power. Anybody who would benefit from becoming a new leader would be alright. Now the poor folk, the merchants and everybody else would get shafted esp people who deal business outside of skyrim. Trade and commerce would be pretty much destroyed. You leave an alliance like the Empire you expect them to just be happy and say oh yeah you can still trade with us it's all good. Times would get even more tough,

 

Not to mention how are they going to protect themselves? Ok they have guards for their own holds but does Skyrim even have it's own standing army? The closest thing Skyrim would have is the Stormcloaks and well let's face it they really aren't all that up to snuff. Building it up to be an actual army that could actually defend itself from invasion would be a ton of work.

 

All for what? A change on who they call their leader not even. They would still have to follow their High King, they would still have to follow their Jarls...

 

So what would it exactly change? What would be the benefit? What would be the point?

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It's certainly justified in the abstract, which is practically where your question belongs. Of course fighting for unity is equally justified, if we maintain this flight of fancy.

 

Fighting for unity is one thing, forcing it (particularly when the unity in question has and is slowly falling apart anyway) another.

 

Ulfric's importance to the Stormcloak cause is hardly irrelevant. Do you seriously think his rabble could maintain any sort of real drive without him? You give the disgruntled Nords more credit than they deserve if you do.

 

Rebellions can be driven by any number of things. What specifically is irrelevant. It could be Ulfric or it could be a quintessential hive mind agreement between the rebels that independence is worth it. Or some magical squirrel god could be telling them to do it all. Or, some external force is completely screwing over the homestead and that drives the rebellion, ala American Revolution. Etc etc.

 

Fact of the matter is, no matter what drives the rebellion the basic point that its for independence justifies it.

 

Okay, let's consider for a moment we forgo everything you presented, and we translate that to something we can relate to: Does not the East Coast deserve independence?

 

Yes, it does deserve it if it so chooses. There is no longer any habitable land on this planet that isn't already occupied and/or owned by one country or another. So to deny any entity the chance at independence (and indeed, criminalize the act) is to truly demolish the notion that anyone is truly free in the end.

 

The wellbeing of the original country doesn't matter much, and honestly, if such a large portion of a country is getting ready to secede, then most likely that country is already on its way to its grave either way. A country like the US for instance doesn't have its entire eastern seaboard wanting independence if the country as a whole wasn't already collapsing anyway.

 

And as for Tamriel, need I explain how the Empire is currently waltzing into its grave again, no matter the outcome of the rebellion?

 

The imperials don't believe that Skyrim is its own location, they believe it is part of a whole, by removing that part, they become weaker. Much, MUCH weaker.

 

This doesn't make it a bad thing. For the Imperials, sure its bad, but not for anyone else. A seceding country isn't obligated to ensure that the original country can survive on its own.

 

Let's re-translate. China (for sake of example) is invading the western US, would you not treat the Secession of the Eastern Seaboard a VERY SERIOUS and DAMNING issue?

 

If China ever actually manages to invade the US (if they'd even try), then I'm not going to care much about what the rest of the country does, because by that time I'll have vacated the country. Either that, or gone completely off the grid, if I wanted to stay in my homeland. (Which, btw, I peg more as Florida itself more than the US in general).

 

command are a recipe for idiocy and disaster....Get rid of Ulfric (he is much more harmful to their cause than beneficial), rally Tamriel and finally rid themselves of the Thalmor yoke and then would be the perfect time to sue for independence.

 

Propping the Empire up on stilts isn't going help Tamriel. Indeed, the entire implication of a Stormcloak victory is that it will lead to a unification of mankind that will actually be able to respond to the Dominion and eventually put it down. The Empire has already proven that it won't face the Dominion even when they had all of the power and strength to do so, so to continue supporting it as if it will suddenly find the balls to do so (When the Thalmor have already inserted themselves heavily into the government mind you) isn't going to get us anywhere.

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Propping the Empire up on stilts isn't going help Tamriel. Indeed, the entire implication of a Stormcloak victory is that it will lead to a unification of mankind that will actually be able to respond to the Dominion and eventually put it down. The Empire has already proven that it won't face the Dominion even when they had all of the power and strength to do so, so to continue supporting it as if it will suddenly find the balls to do so (When the Thalmor have already inserted themselves heavily into the government mind you) isn't going to get us anywhere.

when did The Empire have the strngeth to face the Dominion?

Was it before the great war? nope

During the great war? nope

After the great war? nope

 

 

Also Skyrim shows us that the Empire has kept The Thalmor heavily marginalized in terms of their being everywhere in the government. Forcing them to reside mostly in out-of-the-way areas, and old run down keeps.

 

This "the thalmor are everywhere, inside every government building, knowing every time a government official takes a wizz" nonsense isn't supported by game facts at all.

Edited by sajuukkhar9000
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Fighting for unity is one thing, forcing it (particularly when the unity in question has and is slowly falling apart anyway) another.

 

Oh, so the Stormcloaks aren't pushing their own agenda with the tip of an axe? It was the Stormcloaks who initiated the violence, don't play the victim card. Oh and explain to me how the Empire is falling apart. Hammerfell is no longer a province of the Empire, but a military alliance in the future is still quite likely. Get rid of Cyrodiil however by supporting the Stormcloaks and we have no idea whatsoever if mankind will ever unite. That the Stormcloaks are so eager to fight a potential ally doesn't seem all that encouraging.

 

Fact of the matter is, no matter what drives the rebellion the basic point that its for independence justifies it.

 

Oh, so you're one of those "ends justify the means" types. Can't say I ever cared for that belief system.

 

This doesn't make it a bad thing. For the Imperials, sure its bad, but not for anyone else. A seceding country isn't obligated to ensure that the original country can survive on its own.

 

A seceding country usually isn't the domino that can spell doom for an Empire either. The fall of the Empire is bad for others besides Cyrodiil as well. It's also bad for Skyrim. Why do you think Skyim was virtually untouched by the Great War? Because Cyrodiil bore the brunt of the Dominion's wrath. If Cyrodiil is abandoned and left for dead, the kind of carnage that was visited on Cyrodiil will come to Skyrim. Skyrim isn't heavily fortified like Cyrodiil either. Riften, Whiterun, Dawnstar, Morthal, and Falkreath will fold when confronted with the superior arms of the Dominion, and that's to say nothing of the Dominion's spell casters.

 

Propping the Empire up on stilts isn't going help Tamriel.

 

It will, actually. The more Aldmeri blood that is spilled trying to conquer Cyrodiil is less human blood that will be spilled elsewhere.

 

Indeed, the entire implication of a Stormcloak victory is that it will lead to a unification of mankind that will actually be able to respond to the Dominion and eventually put it down.

 

Hah, I'd like to see you prove that that "implication". If anything you're just telling us what you want to happen. I on other hand, actually have a canon reason for believing Ulfric's cause is doomed. When Jurgen Windcaller was simply a Nord chieftain fighting for land he used the Thu'um strictly for his own glory. He eventually lost because of such a misuse of the Thu'um. Ulfric is following a similar road...where might it lead I wonder? :whistling:

 

The Empire has already proven that it won't face the Dominion even when they had all of the power and strength to do so

 

That is easy to say in HINDSIGHT.

Edited by Kraeten
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Was it before the great war? nope

During the great war? nope

After the great war? nope

 

Yes.

 

Yes.

 

And.

 

Yes.

 

I've already explained this elsewhere.

 

This "the thalmor are everywhere, inside every government building, knowing every time a government official takes a wizz" nonsense isn't supported by game facts at all.

 

The proof is in Season Unending. That the Thalmor could insert themselves into a meeting of which they have zero legitimate reason to be at is proof enough that they can throw themselves around rather freely. If they can pressure a high ranking general in the Imperial Legion, then they can pressure everyone else in the government.

 

Oh, so the Stormcloaks aren't pushing their own agenda with the tip of an axe? It was the Stormcloaks who initiated the violence, don't play the victim card.

 

Funny how the other side always tries to say that the side they dont' agree with should only be undermining every ideal they stand for and every chance at actually achieving victory before they're willing to agree with that side. "Oh I don't like you Stormcloaks, but if you disband your armies and support the Empire in all of its endeavors, we'll play to your concerns, but only after we've dealt with these elves that we don't actually intend on ever fighting. "

 

Oh, so you're one of those "ends justify the means" types. Can't say I ever cared for that belief system.

 

Its nice to be able to sit in a country like the US and look at a rebellion as being this terrible thing when obviously they could just lobby a formal complaint and resolve their issues peacefully, but you know the rest of the world isn't as pleasant as the US. Tamriel, far less pleasant than the worst places in this world. In a far less pleasant world, when there comes a time and a need for independence from an external force, never is there ever a pretty resolution. Never do these conflicts end at the tip of a pen rather than the sword. This society isn't so much evolved that such things could happen.

 

A seceding country usually isn't the domino that can spell doom for an Empire either. The fall of the Empire is bad for others besides Cyrodiil as well. It's also bad for Skyrim. Why do you think Skyim was virtually untouched by the Great War? Because Cyrodiil bore the brunt of the Dominion's wrath. If Cyrodiil is abandoned and left for dead, the kind of carnage that was visited on Cyrodiil will come to Skyrim. Skyrim isn't heavily fortified like Cyrodiil either. Riften, Whiterun, Dawnstar, Morthal, and Falkreath will fold when confronted with the superior arms of the Dominion, and that's to say nothing of the Dominion's spell casters.

 

I'm not explaining why this is wrong again.

 

Also, lol at superior arms, and lol at thinking spell casters are going to be an overwhelming advantage.

 

It will, actually. The more Aldmeri blood that is spilled trying to conquer Cyrodiil is less human blood that will be spilled elsewhere.

 

The Dominion's army was already defeated once in Cyrodiil. And guess what Cyrodiil did? It surrendered in all forms but handing them the keys. Every demand of the Dominion was met even though they LOST. The Empire that will sell out a province and give into the demands of the defeated army all for the sake of sparing war-torn Cyrodiil one shudder of a second more of war is not worthy of being saved.

 

Hah, I'd like to see you prove that that "implication".

 

I already explained this elsewhere. As I said in the other topics, I'm not repeating myself again. I'm quite tired of reiterating things, and especially so when I know full well you've read them.

 

When Jurgen Windcaller was simply a Nord chieftain fighting for land he used the Thu'um strictly for his own glory.

 

Couple things:

 

1. Jurgen Windcaller wasn't the only Nord engaging in conquest. The entirety of Skyrim was fighting against the Dwemeri/Chimer alliance, and I need not explain the kind of stuff you're getting into when you pit two such forces against each other. Indeed, need I mention that at Windcallers humbling there were present the figures of Nerevar Indoril, Vivec, Amalexia, and Sotha Sil? The Chimer (and the Dunmer that they would become not long after this battle) are essentially the Nords of the elven races. They are more than capable warriors and give them an ally in the Dwemer, a race that from what we can deduce would have been quite powerful in their prime, then the Nords were very well matched even with their Thu'um.

 

Let's remember shall we that before Windcaller, there was no notion of this "Way of the Voice" strict-pacifism nonsense, except in Paarthurnax's own attempts to suppress his nature as a dragon, and its unlikely that he was preaching his attempts to anyone. Its unlikely that before the Greybeards that Paathurnax was even concerned with men much besides those wayward Tongues who might have sought him out. And lets also remember that the Thu'um does not make you a god, and that a capable warrior can still defeat you even if you use it.

 

So with those two things remembered, lets look at the Battle of Red Mountain. One force of extremely capable warriors wielding wind magic, and on the other side two forces of just as extremely capable warriors who wield their own strengths (the Dwemers technology of war, the Chimer's general ferocity and presumably a good use of magic). Both clash and one comes out on top. Under normal circumstances, neither force should be much concerned about what happened beyond the normal "oh my god, we lost" or "oh my god, we won" feelings, very much less being humbled by anything.

 

But yet, the Nords do walk away humbled, having been defeated despite their arrogant beliefs that they were invincible because they're steel was good, their arms strong and their voices powerful. A normal man would walk away humbled and accept that fact. Windcaller didn't. He walked away ashamed, and looked to save face. Hence, the Way of the Voice.

 

And you can't use his defeat of the greatest Tongues of his day as proof otherwise, as anyone can go into seclusion and meditate for years and come out far better than they were before, be they dedicated and driven enough to do so. There's also the extremely likely possibility that Windcaller was just simply a stronger Tongue than all the rest.

 

The Thu'um was given to man as a weapon, and that was its only intention. Kyne did not take pity upon mankind so that they might one day use this new power to worship, but so that they may simply live through the tyranny of the dragons to worship the gods.

 

That is easy to say in HINDSIGHT.

 

Except its really not, as anyone who wasn't dramatically over concerned with one provinces well-being would have realized the logistical importance of what occurred at the War of the Red Ring and how the rest of the playing board actually looked. Again, go find my earlier posts for something more detailed.

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Okay, let's consider for a moment we forgo everything you presented, and we translate that to something we can relate to: Does not the East Coast deserve independence?

 

The imperials don't believe that Skyrim is its own location, they believe it is part of a whole, by removing that part, they become weaker. Much, MUCH weaker.

 

Now factor everything else back in, or just let one thing slip through: The Thalmor.

 

Let's re-translate. China (for sake of example) is invading the western US, would you not treat the Secession of the Eastern Seaboard a VERY SERIOUS and DAMNING issue?

 

Let's re-re-translate, the U.S. has invited China to come in an persecute it's own citizens and the U.S. is sanctioning it. Why wouldn't the Eastern Seaboard finally say look, the Empire is NOT acting in our best (or any for that matter) interests and it's time we do something about it?

 

There is a very good reason why their subjects are revolting.

Edited by fraquar
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And as for what I refer to by that, I simply ask this one question:

 

Why is it wrong for the Stormcloaks to seek independence?

 

 

Lets forget about Ulfric and whatever his motivations are, lets forget about Torygg, about Tullius and the impending Dominion threat. Lets just look at those simple soldiers who are fighting for Skyrim's indepedence, and I would like to see a reason why these people, regardless of all the other issues at hand, do not deserve independence from the Empire, an external government that has proven that its interests are more concerned over the well being of the capital province than over the well being of the entire Empire?

 

If we are to presume that every living being is free, and that we also presume that every free living being is free to rule over themselves, and as such, every group of free living beings free to rule over themselves, why is it wrong for one group to seek independence from a larger one, regardless of every other reason that could be given other than their simple right to independence?

 

It might be said in this new topic that the needs of the many outweigh those of the few, but I Say, why must the few be forgotten? Why must the legitimate (<---key word here) grievances of the few be ignored so that the many may remain within a status quo?

 

To be honest, I'm fairly certain each side was given their own flaws and noble goals so as to simply allow each individual player to aid the side they deem most sympathetic, not unlike the ability to annihilate 95% of the Dark Brotherhood.

 

I chose Stormcloaks. Quite simply. Viva la revolucion and all that.

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The proof is in Season Unending. That the Thalmor could insert themselves into a meeting of which they have zero legitimate reason to be at is proof enough that they can throw themselves around rather freely. If they can pressure a high ranking general in the Imperial Legion, then they can pressure everyone else in the government.

 

Yes, the same meeting where General Tullius tells Elenwen to shut up. Great example of Thalmor power. :whistling:

 

Funny how the other side always tries to say that the side they dont' agree with should only be undermining every ideal they stand for and every chance at actually achieving victory before they're willing to agree with that side.

 

That's a truckload of opinion. The only thing the Nords are being asked to compromise is their belief in Talos, and that's only in public. It's hardly undermining "every ideal". That right there is the kind of exaggeration I would expect from Fox News.

 

"but only after we've dealt with these elves that we don't actually intend on ever fighting."

 

You don't have nearly enough proof to prove that statement. If you want us to take you seriously, you need to spend more time actually making fair arguments instead of just regurgitating this emotional diatribe.

 

Never do these conflicts end at the tip of a pen rather than the sword. This society isn't so much evolved that such things could happen.

 

I don't care about whatever statistics you can dig up from our own medieval rebellions. Fact of the matter is, for Ulfric to successfully steal the throne he had to first murder the rightful King then lead a bloody rebellion against his own people. Those people deserve a chance at negotiation. Ulfric didn't bother. Just like he didn't bother accepting Tullius's surrender. The end the stormcloaks are fighting for might be just, but the means certainly are not nor do they further the goal of a united mankind.

 

Also, lol at superior arms, and lol at thinking spell casters are going to be an overwhelming advantage.

 

I don't mean arms as in physical ligament I mean weapons, and if you think magic isn't a considerable advantage you don't really understand how the Dominion was able to do so well in the Great War.

 

The Dominion's army was already defeated once in Cyrodiil. And guess what Cyrodiil did? It surrendered in all forms but handing them the keys.

 

Cyrodiil had lost almost everything already and with the blades mostly gone the Empire was effectively BLIND where the Dominion's military strength was concerned. The Imperial Legions were also battered and weakened while some had been lost entirely. At that time, the future of the Empire and Cyrodiil would have appeared very bleak especially after you'd just rode back into the Imperial City to find it'd been ravaged in your absence.

 

The Empire that will sell out a province

 

Hammerfell made its choice. They didn't want the peace the White Gold Concordant offered, so they were left to fight the battle they apparently still had a taste for.

 

and give into the demands of the defeated army all for the sake of sparing war-torn Cyrodiil one shudder of a second more of war is not worthy of being saved.

 

That's entirely your opinion. And you're entitled to it, just as I'm entitled to think Cyrodiil had already bled enough for the other provinces. That it deserved to have a chance to rebuild before continuing the war and if the other provinces had to give up something for that to happen then they better damn well do it and be grateful for the opportunity to do so! It wasn't their citizens who were being terrorized by the Dominion's armies. It wasn't their cities and villages that were being destroyed.

 

Cyrodiil had already sacrificed plenty by the time of the White Gold Concordant, but you with your BS certainty demand more blood. Never mind that Cyrodiil was barely standing on one leg. It's repulsive really to make such a demand.

 

I already explained this elsewhere. As I said in the other topics, I'm not repeating myself again. I'm quite tired of reiterating things, and especially so when I know full well you've read them.

 

You see, there's this teensy little distinction you can't seem to fathom. Your speculations aren't fact. They never have been, and they never will be. And you're right, I already know your stance. Your stance is that of the angst ridden anarchist "Screw the system man! Tear it down! We don't need it!"

 

And lets also remember that the Thu'um does not make you a god, and that a capable warrior can still defeat you even if you use it.

 

Poorly implemented game mechanics don't trump lore. The power the Thu'um could give was nearly unrivaled.

 

Windcaller didn't. He walked away ashamed, and looked to save face. Hence, the Way of the Voice.

 

Completely your opinion and unsupported by the lore. Next.

 

And you can't use his defeat of the greatest Tongues of his day as proof otherwise, as anyone can go into seclusion and meditate for years and come out far better than they were before, be they dedicated and driven enough to do so.

 

I can't even take this seriously....you're paraphrasing Ulfric now.

 

There's also the extremely likely possibility that Windcaller was just simply a stronger Tongue than all the rest.

 

Just stronger, sure. It's not like he swallowed the shouts of SEVENTEEN TONGUES for THREE DAYS. These tongues hadn't been spending their time peacefully meditating either.

 

The Thu'um was given to man as a weapon, and that was its only intention. Kyne did not take pity upon mankind so that they might one day use this new power to worship, but so that they may simply live through the tyranny of the dragons to worship the gods.

 

Again, this entirely your opinion. We cannot know the full motivations behind Kyne giving man the Thu'um.

 

Except its really not

 

Unlike you, I'm not so quick to presume what information Titus Mede had at his disposal.

 

lol @ imperistan, that you even care to comment on him. I would have given up a long time ago. :P

 

Why, thank you for that very illuminating comment. I'm sure we're all just thrilled you could contribute something so thoughtful.

Edited by Kraeten
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