Is Vortex a Mod Manager?

[AugustaCalidia]

In a recent discussion with Arthmoor, I challenged his claim that Vortex does not allow manual load order adjustment. I stated that Vortex does allow manual load order adjustment. In response Arthmoor said the following:

 

"If by 'does allow' you mean 'makes LOOT sorting rule' then ok, you got me. But that's not the same thing at all.

Manual load order positioning is considered a basic fundamental function of a working mod manager. Vortex lacks this, therefore to me it isn't a mod manager. What it 'IS' is a fancier GUI for maintaining a load order using LOOT (italics mine)."

 

(See the following link: https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7642218-turning-off-the-legacy-api/page-52. Go to page 52.)

 

Is Arthmoor correct in his claim that Vortex is not a mod manager?

 

Arthmoor is one of the most respected and influential modders in the universe. His opinions are to be taken seriously. In responding to the question posed, please be civil, respectful, and offer reasoned arguments, not pitchforks.

 

 

[HadToRegister]

No he is not correct, he just has a "thing" against Vortex and spreads his incorrect opinion about it.

When you manually adjust your load order you are essentially making a loot rule.
He argues against Vortex, but I don't ever recall him saying he's actually USED Vortex, and always comes across that he is basing his opinion solely on hearsay, which is why I don't give his opinion about Vortex much credence.

[rmm200]

All of us have formed our opinions about Arthmoor long ago.

I personally discount anything he says.

And yes, Vortex is a Mod Manager. A very good one.

[HadToRegister]

 

 

His opinions are to be taken seriously.

 

 

No, his opinions are just that, opinions.

Especially when it comes to Vortex.

[Guest deleted34304850]

Vortex manages my mods, therefore it is by that definition, a mod manager.

 

Is it a mod manager that allows me to override the decisions it makes based on internal algorithms and loot rules? - yes it is.

 

i can override any recommendation (remember Vortex makes a load order that is in no way set in stone, and is only a series of recommendations) by adding rules to load mod x before mod y and mod a after mod b - this is intrinsically the same thing as drag/drop or manually editing my load order text file.

 

After that, it boils down to personal preference and semantics.

 

My personal preference, based on using manual mod management, NMM and Vortex is Vortex.

 

I have never used any other mod manager for Bethesda games, so I cannot say that a better option exists out there or not. Buf if a better one exists, then it must be covered in diamonds or something, because for ease of use, for simplicity - vortex wins out.

 

My opinion based solely on my own experiences.

[AugustaCalidia]

Thank you, all of you who have responded to the question, "Is Vortex a Mod Manager?" I do appreciate that. Also, I hope that we may hear from some people who support Arthmoor's view on the matter.

Here are my thoughts about the issue. (For the "tl;dr" crowd there's a summary at the bottom.)

My answer.
Vortex is most definitely a mod manager.

My argument.
In order for a modding tool to qualify as a mod manager, it must meet these necessary conditions:

• Be capable of installing and enabling mods
• Allow user-defined changes to load order
• Allow user-defined changes to install order
• Be capable of disabling and uninstalling mods

These conditions taken together are not only necessary but sufficient for a modding tool to be considered a mod manager.

My conclusion.
Vortex meets these conditions. Therefore Vortex is a mod manager.

Arthmoor's objection.
Arthmoor objects that condition #2 is not met if "allowing user-defined change" involves any process other than "manual load order positioning." If the load order position of a plugin is not achieved by dragging and dropping or by clicking a button and moving a plugin up or down in a plugin list, then it is not a manual process, and therefore the load order positioning is not manual. Any modding tool that fails this "manual" test is therefore not a mod manager.

My response.
Any non-automated user intervention that results in a change in load order position is a manual adjustment. To use the term "manual" in this context and in this way is entirely consistent with ordinary usage. Arthmoor's restrictive use of the term is designed to fit his case and is not consistent with ordinary usage.

Random thoughts.
Arthmoor mistakenly equates making a sorting rule in Vortex with making a LOOT sorting rule. In fact, however, this rule is not at all a LOOT rule - it is a user-defined sorting rule enforced by Vortex, not LOOT. This fundamental mistake lies at the heart of Arthmoor's claim that Vortex is not a mod manager.

Again, in Arthmoor's view, how should we view changing a plugin position by editing a load order text rather than by dragging and dropping? Is that an instance of "manual load order adjustment"?

Again, what about install order and the resolution of file conflicts? Do "manual" considerations spill over into this area? If so, in Arthmoor's view, does Vortex allow for manual file conflict resolution or not?

SUMMARY

Vortex is a mod manager because it meets all the conditions of being a mod manager, including manual load order adjustment. Contrary to Arthmoor's claims, this use of "manual" to describe non-automated user-defined load order positioning in Vortex is consistent with the ordinary meaning and usage of the term.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[Rattledagger]

@ Augusta Calida, for the "Random thoughts", if you put a plugin into a Group, or if you create a "load plugin X after plugin Y" rule in Vortex, this information is added to the Userlist.yaml file located at %appdata%\vortex\name_of_game\ and if you copy this file to %localappdata%\LOOT\name_of_game and run external LOOT you'll see the rules/groups setup in Vortex will be read and understood by LOOT. So at least at this point Arthmoor is correct, Vortex creates LOOT rules and uses LOOT to sort the plugin load order.

 

1: MO, NMM, Vortex and Wrye Bash all handles this point.

4: MO, Vortex and Wrye Bash all handles this point. NMM normally handles this point, but does occasionally "forget" to remove one or more files.

3: Wrye Bash does not support per-file loose file order, also called "install order", meaning according to this Wrye Bash is not a mod manager (unless it's been added resently).

2: MO and Wrye Bash will happily allow you to drag-and-drop a plugin to be above any plugin it depends on, but only Wrye Bash will give you a colour-coded warning about this garbage load-order. NMM absolutely refuses you to drag-and-drop a plugin below it's master(s). Vortex allows whatever garbage load-order you've created in MO or Wrye Bash if you import from save-game and Vortex also allows you to lock a plugin to a specific location, even if this also can be a garbage load order.

 

So case 2 is interesting, since only NMM guarantees a valid load order, while Vortex only guarantees a valid load-order in case you uses the LOOT sorting-capabilities built-into Vortex.

 

Since Arthmoor only uses Wrye Bash reading his comments on other mod managers is fairly irrelevant.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Rattledagger

[HadToRegister]

 

2 Vortex allows whatever garbage load-order you've created in MO or Wrye Bash if you import from save-game and Vortex also allows you to lock a plugin to a specific location, even if this also can be a garbage load order.

 

So case 2 is interesting, since only NMM guarantees a valid load order, while Vortex only guarantees a valid load-order in case you uses the LOOT sorting-capabilities built-into Vortex.

 

 

 

No.

The minute a master loads into Vortex BELOW the esp it's a master to, Vortex will tell you right away about cyclic rules.

Vortex won't even run the game until you fix those rules.

NMM will chug away happily with the worst load order imaginable, except it's true, it will NOT let a MASTER be put below the ESP it's a master to, but that's pretty much where NMM stops doing anything worthwhile.

[Rattledagger]

 

No.

The minute a master loads into Vortex BELOW the esp it's a master to, Vortex will tell you right away about cyclic rules.

Vortex won't even run the game until you fix those rules.

 

 

Hmm, locks "Requiem for the indifferent.esp" to load-order 4, for anyone that is familiar with Requiem they'll know this esp has all other esp/esm as masters. Vortex didn't complain about anything, but when I tried to load a save in-game Requiem spit-out an error-message due to "Requiem for the indifferent.esp" being with wrong version. Ok, tried again, locking both Requiem.esp + the bugsmasher.esp (old Requiem version) to locations 4 - 6 and now it was possible to load this in-game. Created a new save, exited game, removed the 3 locked places and loaded plugin order from the just created save-game. One marked difference now is, suddenly the 3 esp did come after all the ESM, but still "Requiem for the indifferent.esp" was not at the last position, but instead in the middie.

 

So no, I can't manage to trigger any cyclic rules or anything in Vortex v0.18.4 and if my recollection isn't too fuzzy neither did I get any errors back in v0.16.x or something when I last tested this.

 

Game tested, original Skyrim.

 

Note, deploy or manually re-sorting would have fixed the FUBAR load-order taken from the save-game, but at least in my experience this won't happen if you just load plugin-order from save-game without doing anything besides playing the game from inside Vortex.

[AugustaCalidia]

@Rattledagger

 

Thank you for your careful reading of my post and for your insightful comments. I enjoy reading your comments in these Vortex forums because I always learn something from them.

 

I do, however, disagree with your conclusion concerning my first "random thought." I would still argue that using the services of LOOT to enforce a rule that originates with Vortex does not constitute making a LOOT rule. Our focus should be on where the rule originates, not the mechanism by which it's implemented. If the rule originates from LOOT, then it's a LOOT rule. But if it originates from Vortex, then it's a Vortex rule. In this case it's Vortex that first writes that rule to the Userlist.yaml file, not LOOT. The fact that Vortex uses LOOT mechanisms to enforce the rule is irrelevant.

 

Your comment about my third mod manager requirement is quite interesting. I did not realize that Wrye Bash has no install order capability. Are you suggesting that condition #3 not be a necessary condition for a mod manager?

 

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this thread is generating a civil, interesting, and thoughtful conversation.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Augusta Calidia