Is Vortex a Mod Manager?

[AugustaCalidia]

It didn't always have it, but it also got added something like 10 years ago back at the height of Oblivion's time.

 

More recent development versions are also getting FOMOD support added which should be quite useful to a lot of people.

 

Thank you for the update. You've piqued my curiosity about Wrye Bash.

[Tannin42]

I don't really want to get involved in this debate because really there is no definition to what constitutes a mod manager and there isn't really anyone entitled to define it.

 

I do take a bit of offence in this statement though:

 

 

Both LOOT and Vortex serve a purpose in the community and are valuable pieces of software that have delivered meaningful results. However, one of their central design philosophies, "the user is stupid and cannot be trusted", is something that many people disagree with and find annoying.

 

This is just blatantly wrong because it assumes LOOT (or Vortex) takes control away from users which is not the case.

It takes work away from you and helps you focus on more important things, like every good tool does. Claiming LOOT is treating users as too stupid to make a custom load order is like saying a GPS is treating people as too stupid to read a map.

No it's not, it's just more convenient and more powerful.

You may prefer to read a map or know the way by yourself, that's fine but it doesn't make you smarter.

And suggesting the GPS takes control away from you because it suggests a way and becomes a bit annoying when you deviate is also not correct, it's still you driving.

 

 

Btw.: LOOT requires users to think about relations between plugins before manually making custom rules whereas most users using drag&drop blindly follow instructions they find somewhere on forums.

Almost all users complaining about Vortex's lack of "manual" load ordering do so because

a) "The mod author says I should load his mod last and Vortex doesn't let me"

b) "Some forum thread from 2015 said I should load mod a after mod b but LOOT does it the other way around"

 

Case a demonstrate these users have no clue why load ordering even has to happen and case b shows one significant drawback of forums and such: The information in this case is outdated (in every case I've had reported) because one of the mods (or both) have been updated and that load order from the forum is now incorrect and LOOT has more current data.

 

How does that make them smarter?

 

LOOT users either base their load order on actively maintained data and an understanding that load ordering is more complex than they currently grasp or they add custom rules based on actual knowledge about the plugins involved. I consider that quite sensible.

 

How are people using this up-to-date information and tools that automate work stupid? How are people providing up-to-date information and advance its use "treating their users as stupid"?

Understanding that not every user knows and understands everything doesn't equal considering them stupid.

 

I consider Vortex users the smart ones. The ones that don't do menial tasks just because their fathers had to and their grandfathers before them in the load order mines of Wrye Bash...

 

EDIT: And just to clarify, all quips aside: If you prefer drag&drop load ordering, that's fine, I mean no disrespect to anyone who prefers a different approach, all I'm saying is: Don't be arrogant, don't call Vortex users stupid, don't call us condescending. Have some respect.

[Rattledagger]

@ matortheeternal, the majority of newcomers will only install a few mods and with only let's say 10 mods total chances are two of them has file conflicts and you want mod 1 to "install" after mod 2. With only two conflicting mods it's no real difference between drag-and-drop mod 1 below mod 2 in MO2, or to create a "load 1 after 2" rule in Vortex. It's the same if plugin A and B conflicts and you want A to load after B, for a newcomer learning to drag-and-drop A below B in MO2 or to put A into another group in Vortex is easily learned.

 

With only 10 mods running LOOT or not is likely irrelevant, since chances are any conflicts must be manually handled.

 

After the newcomer has (hopefully) learned the basics, number of mods starts to increase to let's say 50 mods. Let's say 10 mods has file conflicts, meaning it's still easy in MO2 to keep track and "fix" install order of all conflicts and the same in Vortex.

 

With 50 total plugins chances are LOOT does make a difference with a few plugins automatically being placed correctly relative to other plugins. Still drag-and-drop or putting plugins into groups works.

 

Let's also say one of the plugins really must load last, something that is easily done by drag-and-drop to the bottom in MO2, or putting into last group in Vortex.

 

If you ever install more mods on the other hand, if you used drag-and-drop you must remember to drag-and-drop the same plugin to the bottom again and again, while in Vortex the plugin is in last group regardless of how many more plugins you add.

 

If you now jumps to 500 mods, 100 conflicting mods and 250 plugins, it's still possible to drag-and-drop everything into order in MO2, or the same with the help of rules and groups in Vortex. Let's say you add mod 501 one month later and this conflicts with the already conflicting mods 23 and 67, in such a way you want 501 to load after 67 but before 23. There are no earlier dependency between 23 and 67.

 

In Vortex it's easy to handle this, since if you click the red lightning bolt for mod 501 only mods 23 and 67 shows up and you can easily create two new rules. If drag-and-drop, 501 is already after 67, so just drag-and-drop 23 below 501... Hang on, 23 already has some other conflicts, let's say 23 to 33, 33 to 68, 68 to 99 and the "easy" drag-and-drop suddenly isn't so easy any longer.

 

You have the same with plugins, a fairly common load order would be something like

 

Master to C

C

Depends on C

Master to D

D

Depends on D

 

Meaning if you want C after D by using drag-and-drop you must at the minimum move two plugins, while with Vortex putting C into a later group than D is all you need to do.

 

Tl;dr: Using LOOT with only a few mods is fairly irrelevant, since chances are LOOT won't make any changes that is relevant for playing the game anyway. The Choice between drag-and-drop or groups is also fairly irrelevant.

 

As the number of mods, conflicts and plugins increases on the other hand, drag-and-drop is at a disadvantage. Every time more than two mods or plugins are part of a conflict and you can't "fix" the conflicts with a single drag-and-drop, Vortex has the advantage.

[Guest deleted34304850]

@Tannin42 - thank you for participating in this debate.

 

I recall just recently, one of the scenarios you mentioned above, a user was suggesting that Vortex/Loot was wrong in how it wanted to sort a mod and a patch. When you investigated, you found that the information the user was referring to was out of date by some years. The files had long since been updated since that one post had been written, and the fault lay firmly with the user who interpreted this out of date information as correct, and therefore everything else was wrong.

 

This is/was a user error, and by and large the vast majority of issues listed in these forums falls into that bucket. Of course there are issues with Vortex, the perfect program is yet to be written, by anyone, but user errors are a fact of life.

 

Does that make users stupid? No, it doesn't, but a user of any program will find something that they think fits their case based on literally no evidence or investigation, and then the task becomes convincing them that their "analysis" is somewhat flawed.

 

I don't regard myself as stupid by any means. I do something similar to this in my day job on much larger, much more complex systems. I get what Vortex does, and how it does it. I appreciate that it will do about 95% of the heavy lifting for me.

 

When I finish work, I just want to play my games, not spend hours modding them and fixing issues.

The adage of leading a horse to water fits well here.

 

Vortex is an excellent piece of software. It manages my mods across several games and it does so very easily. Other people may disagree, that's fine, that's the spice of life. For me, this program is THE best program that I have used to manage mods in games. That is my truth.

[AugustaCalidia]

@matortheeternal

 

Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. Having had some time now to think about your comments, I offer the following responses.

 

 

My argument.
In order for a modding tool to qualify as a mod manager, it must meet these necessary conditions:

• Be capable of installing and enabling mods
• Allow user-defined changes to load order
• Allow user-defined changes to install order
• Be capable of disabling and uninstalling mods

 

I disagree with these arbitrary conditions for what is defined as a mod manager. In my opinion, a "mod manager" is just a utility which "manages" mods. Management, in this case, only requires the addition and removal of mods to a game.

 

As for these conditions, are they debatable? Yes. Are they arbitrary? No. "Arbitrary" implies that I reached in and pulled these conditions out of a hat. On the contrary, I arrived at these conditions by examining all of the Bethesda game mod managers with which I had some experience, viz., FOMM, MO1, MO2, NMM, OBMM and Vortex. I looked at all of the elements they had in common as mod managers and from that developed my list of necessary conditions. You may question my methodology, and you may question my results, but clearly neither of these was arbitrary.

 

 

In my opinion, a "mod manager" is just a utility which "manages" mods. Management, in this case, only requires the addition and removal of mods to a game. Whether or not "load" or "install" order is involved is entirely dependent on whether or not the game in question even has a concept of such a thing, or if the order is of any significance to how the game in question handles mods.

 

That's an excellent point and well made, if one is speaking about the entire universe of games. I took a "one size fits all" approach that may indeed be too broad for many games. However, I would argue that within the Bethesda universe a mod manager is commonly thought to be something more than just a dispenser and remover of mods. Here such a minimalist "mod manager" would not really count as a mod manager. You may claim that it should. but that is beside the point. The point is that in the Bethesda world there is played a certain "language game" (think Wittgenstein) about mod managers. In this game "mod managers" have the four features that I have enumerated.

 

After your first paragraph, you digress from the core topic of this thread and lament that Vortex and LOOT do not facilitate gamers becoming accomplished mod mechanics. Having already commented on this earlier, I'll now leave it to others to respond to those concerns.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[AugustaCalidia]

@Tannin42

 

Thank you for your remarks. You are the greatest.

 

 

I don't really want to get involved in this debate because really there is no definition to what constitutes a mod manager and there isn't really anyone entitled to define it.

 

In commenting here on Tannin42's statements, my purpose is not to encourage him to become involved in this mod manager discussion and to respond. Rather, I'm inviting any interested party(ies) out there in Vortexland to respond to my musings. Furthermore, I do not want what I say here to be construed as disrespect for Tannin42 and his views. I think Tannin42 is the best thing since Tannin! I admire him greatly and am highly appreciative of his work.

 

Some thoughts.

If no one is entitled to define "mod manager," does that mean that currently there exists no one who is so entitled? If that's the case, then what conditions would have to be met for someone to become properly entitled?

 

Or does Tannin42 mean that no one is entitled because no one has the right to define "mod manager"? However, if no one has the right to define, then how can we talk meaningfully about mod managers at all? Do we just point?

 

Finally, if no one has the right to define a mod manager, then is no one allowed to call Vortex a mod manager?

 

Sorry about all of this, but what can you expect from a philosophy major? :smile:

Edited May 21, 2019 by Augusta Calidia

[HadToRegister]

No one has the right to define the term, because that term is different to every person, as displayed by Mator and Arthmoor

 

Personally, I think Vortex is a Mod Manager, and a Dessert Topping.

[AugustaCalidia]

No one has the right to define the term, because that term is different to every person, as displayed by Mator and Arthmoor

 

Personally, I think Vortex is a Mod Manager, and a Dessert Topping.

 

Yummy!

[rmm200]

Vortex:

a mass of whirling fluid or air, especially a whirlpool or whirlwind.

"we were caught in a vortex of water"

synonyms: whirlwind, whirlpool, gyre, maelstrom, eddy, swirl, swirling, countercurrent, counterflow; literaryCharybdis

"a whirling vortex of buff-colored smoke"

[matortheeternal]

I didn't intend to insult anyone in my post, so I'm going to exit this thread now.