Iopho wrote: I've seen many things about the unarmed "perk tree"... In both armor trees or one-handed tree. But isn't it a bit more logical that, like the dagger, it fits into the Sneak tree as well ? Maybe just my crazyness, but being weaponless is god damn sneaky as you produce less sound and is less suspicious overall. At least, that's how I use the bare-handed gameplay in my playthroughs. Clothing (or light armor for when I know it's gonna be difficult otherwise) and bare-handed (with the exception of magic to summon dat horse or get your most powerful shield ability thrown on you at the start of the fight when you couldn't be sneaky enough). Early-game, it's rather difficult playing bare-handed and clothing, same with very-late game, but for the whole duration of mid-game, especially with your paddings, you're on even to better settup to eliminate most ennemies in sneak fightstyle.
In response to post #70618563. #70619988 is also a reply to the same post.
Spoiler
Skata20 wrote: I am gonna keep an eye on this one, just the "update mid playthrough" version is enough for me... However I don't know if I must wait for some patches I currently have in Ordinator (like Complete Alchemy and Cooking Overhaul, Smithing Perks Overhaul, Weapon Armor Clothing and Clutter Fixes, etc.).
tassadarfanboy wrote: Update mid playthrough is dangeorus, the same way surgery without anaesthesia is. You're free to take the risk, but be aware that this is not a recommended procedure and stability will likely suffer if you do this.
NeshiraNamea wrote: At first I thought "Wow, this looks perfect! There's a lot of things in ordinator I don't use but I don't wanna go back to vanilla..." Then I thought "But Ordinator is so well made and I can trust it to be stable and know that the creator made a good mod..." Then I saw the username and realized it was still you. YAY!! Thank you for this awesome new option.
colinswrath wrote: Would you say that Vokrii would have the best flow using your other mods? What I mean I guess is do you think your mods work best all used in tandem as one big overhaul?
Do what you want. I don't believe in overhauls anymore FWIW.
"Do what you want. I don't believe in overhauls anymore FWIW."
I still wouldn't mind mods like Summermyst, Ordinator, Wildcat, Wintersun, Thunderchild, Imperious, and Andromeda being rolled together into one big package. I think a great deal of us would love that -- because a great deal of us do this already anyway.
laidback99 wrote: 100 - Dovahzulaan: 25% chance that your shout cooldown immediately finishes. This means 25% chance after I shout, or 25% chance for each second while my shouts are on cd? :')
Hey Enai, just to bring an alternative, why not make unarmed perks in Heavy Armor this time? It would really spice things up a lot! Thanks as always <3
EnaiSiaion wrote: I mean, it doesn't say "second" anywhere... I mean...
EnaiSiaion wrote: Moving the unarmed perks back to Heavy Armor has been a very common request, probably because that's where they are in vanilla. They will be moved back in 1.1.0. (Even if it makes no practical difference other than making monks harder to build and nonexistent builds that can afford daedric plate but not a weapon easier. It is a commonly requested feature, so that's how it's going to be.)
Sable17 wrote: Why bother with what a few people are requesting? Create the mod how you want, not how the vocal minority wants. I'm fine with the perks being in the LA tree, as well as Ocato's Preparation being how it is.
laidback99 wrote: Uhh..who made you the king of world? Just because you like something doesn't mean it's 100% desired for everybody. I'm perfectly fine with light armor too, it's my favored armor type but I just made a "suggestion" so it's a bit different from Ordinator which already has an amazing light armor unarmed perk tree. It's up to Enai how the mod will be and I respect that. Just as you should respect other opinions. I mean seriously it's 2019 does someone really have to tell you that? If you think some harmless ideas are " bothering with vocal minority " then no one can help you with that good luck.
Sable17 wrote: ...I was pointing out that just because people don't come here to defend a perk that's complained about, it doesn't mean that EVERYONE must want it changed. And I was also pointing out that the MOD AUTHOR should decide what they want to do with it, not people who come to request changes in the comment section. So saying a mod author should do what THEY want makes ME "king of the world"? Do you just want to be confrontational?
And "It's 2019", seriously? You've told me everything I need to know about you right there.
laidback99 wrote: Of course the MOD AUTHOR will decide I'm perfectly fine with it, can't you read what I wrote?? I did zero complaining about the perks so I don't know what imaginary social justice world you are living in. I JUST threw an idea that shouldn't have been this much of a problem. No one needs to defend a perk, as this is not something to be defended, I know not everyone wants it that's why I said " Hey Enai, just to bring an alternative... " Why get offended over this? Uhm... What's the thing you learnt about me honorable warrior?
Sable17 wrote: Sooo yeah you just want to be confrontational. I mention I like things how they are and that there's no need to change them (since EnaiSiaion literally just said it's being changed because of people like you asking about it) if the mod author doesn't want to and you come at me with insults and sarcasm. Why?
EnaiSiaion wrote: Stop fighting. :/
laidback99 wrote: I am insulting you? Sorry my vocal minority brain was bothering you. If you like things the way they are then that's O.K. I do too, it was only a friendly approach to see what Enai was thinking about it. I will never stop using his mods as I admire his work plus respect his efforts greatly and anything he makes will always be in my game. So your unnecessary "defending" is not required. You make me look like a bad person who is not satisfied and just compaining about things. Now I don't want to occupy this comment section any longer. To Enai ; forgive me if I offended you in any way.
hobo1137 wrote: Quote - "Moving the unarmed perks back to Heavy Armor has been a very common request, probably because that's where they are in vanilla. They will be moved back in 1.1.0"
Noooooooo! But it makes more sense to have it in Light Armor with the speed stacking perks. Punch, dodge, punch, dodge. Even Gloves of the Pugilist are Light Armor.
northtexan95 wrote: I don't think Unarmed makes much sense in either Light armor or Heavy Armor. It seems to me it should be in an entirely different category. Perhaps it should be combined with Sneak in a type of "non weapon" combat category. Another idea would be to have it in both categories with differences in perks to differentiate between the two categories. Of course, I'm suggesting this as someone who doesn't have to actually make the mod or deal with complaints. :)
ammonluke wrote: I've never tried an unarmed build, but if I ever did it makes much more sense to have it paired with light armor rather than heavy. Why would I gear up my guy in heavy armor to then go punch things?
northtexan95 wrote: Maybe you need heavy armor to keep yourself alive while you get close enough to punch. That's why I say it makes better sense to have unarmed separate from any armor category. However, what Bethesda did and what they should have done is a long list.
bp377 wrote: You might conceivably pair unarmed combat with a Knight-like build in Heavy Armour as a backup for when your weapon breaks and you've nothing left to fight your enemy, it would explain the inclusion of Hand to Hand in classes like the Knight... in Oblivion.
But since Skyrim is blessed with indestructible weapons, a heavily armoured knight isn't going to need to fall back on their fists when things get really rough, this just leaves Monks as the only real users of unarmed combat as it is their primary form of combat, Monks are fast and evasive so Light Armour seems like a better skill, from a thematic perspective, to put unarmed perks in, of course this is in spite of the fact that Monks do not usually wear armour but the perks have to go somewhere and regardless of what Bethesda did Light Armour seems like the more sensible choice for unarmed in Vokrii given that tree's general idea of speed and evasion over raw damage taking.
KlausGamingShow wrote: Why not create defensive unarmed perks for Light Armor and move the existing offensive perks to Pickpocket? You know, just like daggers require investment in both 1H and Sneak to master, fist fighting would require LA and PP. This would fit the flavor of Khajiit and Argonians being the best unarmed combatants for their proficiency with thieving skills. Also, it'd give one more source of damage to pure Stealth characters, which is very welcomed.
(Ok, I've put more thought into it and now I see a reason why Bethesda gave the unarmed perk to Heavy Armor. It's because most brawlers in the game are Orcs and Warriors wearing HA. So, changing that could affect their effectiveness in brawls somehow, but I'm not sure. It's a tricky one. Maybe the ideal is to implement Hand-to-Hand as a hidden skill tree visualized via MCM, similarly to how Kryptopyr implemented the Cooking skill in CACO, but that doesn't seem minimalist.)
northtexan95 wrote: I still prefer my idea of either having Unarmed in both with different stats on the perks and/or having it separate from the armor categories.
StevetheKoala wrote: As this is a point of contention, I want to say that I don't love either the light or heavy armour trees for hand to hand, but if you have to pick one, light armour is the obvious choice. Knight and warrior characters, who have traditionally had access to hand to hand, don't, but archers and barbarians do gain access to it and it is a little more accessible for monks and monks and barbarians are the two character builds that should always have easy access to hand to hand.
Personally, I like block and alteration as your hand to hand skills, but that has proven to be an unpopular suggestion in the past. Given that is the case, I will come firmly down on the side of the light armour tree.
KlausGamingShow wrote: The problem of giving unarmed perks to both armor skills is that players might feel compelled to grind levels in an overlapping skill, they'd otherwise never level up, just to get all the related perks. That doesn't seem particularly fun or intuitive to me.
Now, while I like the idea of moving the perks to another skill tree entirely (I suggested Pickpocket), I recognize that it might not be considered a minimalist approach. That being said, I think the most natural scenario would be the perks going either to Light or Heavy Armor trees. The former being more friendly to common sense and the latter to vanilla Skyrim, so it really depends on what we value the most.
jacobe96 wrote: Light Armor makes the most sense for unarmed. Also the perk "Armor Padding" is super cool. Now you can wear robes on top of the armor to look more like a monk. Thanks for the awesome work!
Also Ocato's Preparation is an awesome perk!
vanguardian1 wrote: If I may suggest, why not add an "unarmed" perk to both light and heavy armor trees? Simply require 3 pieces of that armor type (so you can go helmet-less) to use those perk abilities of that tree......
EnaiSiaion wrote: I continue to not understand why people want unarmed perks in multiple trees. No other weapon has this...?
kasai409 wrote: i don't know how strong monks are, or if that would break balance, never played one, but why put the unarmed perk in an armor tree to begin with? why not one-handed? you are attacking with one hand, it's an offensive tree, and it already has the dagger perk in vanilla, which is kinda similar.
tassadarfanboy wrote: Good question. My best guess is "least likelihood of dead perk points". If you're doing an unarmed build, you're fighting unarmed and not with a wepaon, and since one-handed has 1H as a base perk you will *certainly* spend at least one point spent on the tree opening perk unlocking the unarmed branch. That's a one perk point tax giving you nothing for your target playstyle. Light Armor, you may or may not use, you might go armorless save for alteration mage armor or even heavy armor, but investing in the base light armor perk tree will probably give you something immediately useful in return.
solidsirhc wrote: Why not unarmed in the one-handed tree? Seems more balanced to me.
- To train any weapon and an armour, you have to level up two skills (one-handed+heavy armour or archery+light armour), so enemies scale accordingly. If unarmed was also in one-handed, this would still apply, as opposed to damage and defence being raised in a single skill.
- This way both light and heavy armour users can make use of unarmed combat, as well as robe users.
tassadarfanboy wrote: Nothing prohibits you from using heavy armor + unarmed. The requirements to use unarmed perks is perk points into light armor for unlock and have both hands empty when using them, and the damage scales of stamina total. It does end up with exactly the problem I mentioned before (wasting one perk point into a skill you're not actually using) and you end up with dead combat XP shunted into a useless skill if you're not wearing light armor. Come to think of it, maybe moving the branch to 1H might be better.
Such is the dilemma of designs when you can't just add new skills altogether.
devoidofcontent wrote: I really like the idea of putting the unarmed perks into the One-Handed tree. The first unarmed perk could make the damage scale with the basic One-Handed perks, so your perk point to gain access is not lost.
Putting it back into Heavy Armor would make the Ki Strike perk feel a little out of place. And while there's a point to be made about Ki Strike being a better fit for Alteration, Enai's reason why he doesn't want to spread unarmed over multiple trees seems valid to me.
EnaiSiaion wrote:
I really like the idea of putting the unarmed perks into the One-Handed tree.
Losing VR compatibility due to the 18 perk limit.
devoidofcontent wrote: That's a bummer if it's not possible because of VR.
Unarmed being in the Heavy Armor tree in vanilla at least made some logical sense, because it required Heavy Armor gauntlets. Without this condition it's a bit random in either of the armor trees.
Perhaps it could instead be featured inside both, but restricted to wearing the respective armor type in the hands slot. That way you could choose between a high mobility monk or a low mobility juggernaut and nobody would feel forced to invest in both, because you can only benefit from one at a time.
Teccam wrote: Respectfully, Enai, I'm not sure there is enough evidence to suggest that Heavy Armor is the preferred place to put the unarmed perks. As you know better than most people on this site, there will *always* be people who disagree one way or another. The trick is to identify when a "common" request is still a minority opinion, because the majority is content with the current system and therefore remaining silent.
I humbly request that you keep the unarmed perks in Light Armor. You yourself admit it makes much more sense from both a logistical standpoint as well as for the purposes of logical builds and traditional TES class archetypes. Bethesda giving a single Heavy Armor perk a small benefit in unarmed combat was an aberration compared to the franchise's historical treatment of unarmed characters, and I feel it would be inappropriate to move unarmed as a whole into Heavy Armor just to appease a few people. (I haven't even seen any actual argument for this, other than "Fists of Steel is in Heavy Armor" which as I noted above is really not an argument at all...)
rbartmoss wrote: "Spicing things up" without any actual gameplay purpose is definitely not any reason to make a change. I mean, why don't you move the unarmed perks to Enchanting this time? It would really spice things up a lot.
As for "that's how Vanilla does it"... uh... isn't getting away from the horrible Vanilla perk system exactly why we use mods such as Volkri or Ordinator? :D I guess there is a minor compatibility argument in there somewhere, but I'm not sure I see it. What heavy-armored character actually goes unarmed, other than for shits and giggles?
theblueshark wrote: weird how people want it in the heavy armor tree. The characters in RPGs that have the unarmed feats are usually unarmored characters or light armored ones. If you ask me leave it in the light armor tree where it makes more sense but I guess to each their own.
KlausGamingShow wrote:
I continue to not understand why people want unarmed perks in multiple trees. No other weapon has this...?
Actually, Enai, the Sneak tree has perks related to One-Handed and Bows.
The characters in RPGs that have the unarmed feats are usually unarmored characters or light armored ones.
That's the matter. We are talking about Skyrim, not "the average RPG". In Skyrim, all brawlers that also happen to be followers (Uthgerd, Cosnach and Benor) prefer Heavy Armor. Go ahead and check for yourself: https://elderscrolls...m/wiki/Brawling. Also, most NPCs meant to be formidable brawlers, such as Orc chieftains, wear HA. I mean, one could simply ignore that aspect and think whatever they want is right, but when they care about worldbuilding, details like these become a big deal.
theblueshark wrote: Cosnach is wearing light armors, I assume the reason why his Heavy Armor is high is that the generic skill tree of Skyrim places the unarmed skills under it... on a side note the pugilist glove is light armored... I respect your opinion if you want it in Heavy Armor.. In the end its EnaiSiaion's decision where to place it... cheers friend
devoidofcontent wrote: Like always in these matters there are many valid arguments for different design priorities. Now I'm only curious what Enai will come up with in the end. It was an insightful discussion though, thanks guys!
rogersemerad wrote: The 18 perk limit for VR has been solved for a while by https://www.nexusmod...tion/mods/16330, so that at least doesn't need to be considered here.
After thinking about this and reading responses, my preference is strongly in the camp of putting it in the one-handed tree. It just makes so much more sense to treat unarmed as just another weapon type with it's own specializations. Most of the problems with the vanilla treatment stem from that. Putting it into Heavy Armor is a decent second choice, since Vokrii is trying to be "vanilla-ish".
Although it's beyond the scope of this particular mod, my pie in the sky wish for a perk mod would be to have the armor trees combined into one and make a new Athletics tree in place of the displaced one. With all the overlap between the two armor trees it makes a lot of sense to combine them. Armor mastery, Armor Fit, Armor Set, and Helmet Replacement would now work with either armor type, and there would still be the specific options to specialize in Heavy or Light, and those wouldn't work with both. The new Athletics tree would get some of the Light Armor stuff, Like Windrunner and Evasive Sprint, as well as the Unarmed perks. You would need to come up with some new concepts for the Athletics tree in order to really fill it out, and you'd probably need to add a variable to a lot of them that would decrease their effectiveness in proportion to the weight of worn armor. That would still allow a Heavy armor specialist to get some of those benefits if being super athletic is part of their character concept, and would give light armor the ability to really capitalize on those advantages, especially when they get the weightless armor perk. It would also give unarmored characters the ability to have some proactive defensive measures without dabbling in an armor tree.
Not a solution. Too many people don't read compatibility notes. Also, you shouldn't need a third party hack.
After thinking about this and reading responses, my preference is strongly in the camp of putting it in the one-handed tree. It just makes so much more sense to treat unarmed as just another weapon type with it's own specializations. Most of the problems with the vanilla treatment stem from that. Putting it into Heavy Armor is a decent second choice, since Vokrii is trying to be "vanilla-ish".
Okay, so let's say it goes into the one-handed tree and the user finds their way through the "vanilla-plus" 21 perk ball..Then why doesn't it work when you have literally one free hand and a shield in the other? Why do you need two hands? (Users don't care about technical limitations, particularly when it's in a tree that has the thing you can't do in its name. Vokrii makes those perks look easy, but they aren't. PerMa needed a convoluted workaround in the form of invisible weapons.) Also, why don't you benefit from the dual wield perks with two free hands? Hell, why don't you benefit from those perks with one free hand and one weapon, if they're both considered one-handed weapons? Okay, let's add this feature. Now you can weapon block AND benefit from the dual wield perks, making you a total idiot if you equip two actual weapons and can't block, or go two-handed and miss out on the dual wield bonuses. Etc.
People don't like it when ambiguities are not resolved in their favour, or when something looks like it should work but it doesn't. (See: Intuitive Magic + Vancian Magic.)
Heavy Armor has the advantage of being canon. As mentioned above, this is a world where people punch each other's platemai until one side surrenders.
Although it's beyond the scope of this particular mod, my pie in the sky wish for a perk mod would be to have the armor trees combined into one and make a new Athletics tree in place of the displaced one.
Breaks compatibility with EVERYTHING. SkyRe could get away with it in 2014. Today, no one is updating mods or making patches anymore.
Also you can't change where the XP for being hit goes.
Jason0905 wrote: rogersemerad, as a VR player I was ecstatic to hear there would be a lightweight version of Ordinator that would not need to rely on any additional fixes to get running. Extending the number of perks beyond 18 would defeat the point of the mod being lightweight in the first place. Two features of the mod stated in the description are, 'Compatible with almost everything, easily made compatible with the rest.' & 'Lightweight scripts, no save bloat.' Personally if unarmed gets moved around it wouldn't affect me, as melee is sub-par in VR without a huge play area (especially fists). But bloating out the mod with big perk trees requiring an additional fix would shadow the original purpose of the mod.
EnaiSiaion wrote:
melee is sub-par in VR without a huge play area (especially fists).
If you punch the wall by accident, it might simulate punching dragon scale.
I'm reminded of the Beat Saber version of You Spin Me Right Round that has the player spin around with their controllers and presumably avoid windmill smashing their computer to the floor.
Jason0905 wrote: Haven't played that song yet, sounds unique like the Gangdam Style track that gets you doing the dance. If watching videos of people throwing their Wii remotes at the TV has taught me anything, it's to always wear the straps and clear the play area!
The VR version is actually the reason that I'm interested in this. I'm currently waiting on getting enough money for a VR capable rig to upgrade my computer ( my experience with Skyrim so far has been on the Switch ), so I guess my inexperience in modding lead me to believe that the perk extender was pretty simple and basic. From reading up on the modding scene I thought that if you knew how to mod at all the perk extender would be no problem. I can appreciate the simplicity of your current solution if that's not the case.
Some of the inconsistancies between how Skyrim treats unarmed and armed weapons didn't occur to me. I didn't think shields would be a problem because it works in Skyrim in vanilla. One of my characters I made was a Kahjiit destruction/heavy armor+unarmed shield mage, but the two-weapon fighting perks I had not considered.
My pie in the sky ideas were me just thinking about the conceptual problems with putting unarmed in an armored tree. I wasn't actually asking for it, just using it as a talking point about how Skyrim handles the movement/defense/armor part of the game. With all that said now I'm actually curious about how unarmed works under the hood. It sounds like PerMa does something like this, when I get my rig I'll have to look under the hood of that and Ordinator/Vokrii and see if it's something I might be able to do myself.
In response to post #70634208. #70658118 is also a reply to the same post.
Spoiler
Layne66 wrote: Will the Sun's Judgment perk affect the sun damage enchant from summermyst?
EnaiSiaion wrote: No, because there's actually no such thing as sun damage, just cleverly disguised magic damage. This would require a compatibility patch.
Thus why it says sun "spells" instead of "spells and effects". They're worded like Magic cards.
laidback99 wrote: 100 - Dovahzulaan: 25% chance that your shout cooldown immediately finishes. This means 25% chance after I shout, or 25% chance for each second while my shouts are on cd? :')
Hey Enai, just to bring an alternative, why not make unarmed perks in Heavy Armor this time? It would really spice things up a lot! Thanks as always <3
EnaiSiaion wrote: I mean, it doesn't say "second" anywhere... I mean...
EnaiSiaion wrote: Moving the unarmed perks back to Heavy Armor has been a very common request, probably because that's where they are in vanilla. They will be moved back in 1.1.0. (Even if it makes no practical difference other than making monks harder to build and nonexistent builds that can afford daedric plate but not a weapon easier. It is a commonly requested feature, so that's how it's going to be.)
Sable17 wrote: Why bother with what a few people are requesting? Create the mod how you want, not how the vocal minority wants. I'm fine with the perks being in the LA tree, as well as Ocato's Preparation being how it is.
laidback99 wrote: Uhh..who made you the king of world? Just because you like something doesn't mean it's 100% desired for everybody. I'm perfectly fine with light armor too, it's my favored armor type but I just made a "suggestion" so it's a bit different from Ordinator which already has an amazing light armor unarmed perk tree. It's up to Enai how the mod will be and I respect that. Just as you should respect other opinions. I mean seriously it's 2019 does someone really have to tell you that? If you think some harmless ideas are " bothering with vocal minority " then no one can help you with that good luck.
Sable17 wrote: ...I was pointing out that just because people don't come here to defend a perk that's complained about, it doesn't mean that EVERYONE must want it changed. And I was also pointing out that the MOD AUTHOR should decide what they want to do with it, not people who come to request changes in the comment section. So saying a mod author should do what THEY want makes ME "king of the world"? Do you just want to be confrontational?
And "It's 2019", seriously? You've told me everything I need to know about you right there.
laidback99 wrote: Of course the MOD AUTHOR will decide I'm perfectly fine with it, can't you read what I wrote?? I did zero complaining about the perks so I don't know what imaginary social justice world you are living in. I JUST threw an idea that shouldn't have been this much of a problem. No one needs to defend a perk, as this is not something to be defended, I know not everyone wants it that's why I said " Hey Enai, just to bring an alternative... " Why get offended over this? Uhm... What's the thing you learnt about me honorable warrior?
Sable17 wrote: Sooo yeah you just want to be confrontational. I mention I like things how they are and that there's no need to change them (since EnaiSiaion literally just said it's being changed because of people like you asking about it) if the mod author doesn't want to and you come at me with insults and sarcasm. Why?
EnaiSiaion wrote: Stop fighting. :/
laidback99 wrote: I am insulting you? Sorry my vocal minority brain was bothering you. If you like things the way they are then that's O.K. I do too, it was only a friendly approach to see what Enai was thinking about it. I will never stop using his mods as I admire his work plus respect his efforts greatly and anything he makes will always be in my game. So your unnecessary "defending" is not required. You make me look like a bad person who is not satisfied and just compaining about things. Now I don't want to occupy this comment section any longer. To Enai ; forgive me if I offended you in any way.
hobo1137 wrote: Quote - "Moving the unarmed perks back to Heavy Armor has been a very common request, probably because that's where they are in vanilla. They will be moved back in 1.1.0"
Noooooooo! But it makes more sense to have it in Light Armor with the speed stacking perks. Punch, dodge, punch, dodge. Even Gloves of the Pugilist are Light Armor.
northtexan95 wrote: I don't think Unarmed makes much sense in either Light armor or Heavy Armor. It seems to me it should be in an entirely different category. Perhaps it should be combined with Sneak in a type of "non weapon" combat category. Another idea would be to have it in both categories with differences in perks to differentiate between the two categories. Of course, I'm suggesting this as someone who doesn't have to actually make the mod or deal with complaints. :)
ammonluke wrote: I've never tried an unarmed build, but if I ever did it makes much more sense to have it paired with light armor rather than heavy. Why would I gear up my guy in heavy armor to then go punch things?
northtexan95 wrote: Maybe you need heavy armor to keep yourself alive while you get close enough to punch. That's why I say it makes better sense to have unarmed separate from any armor category. However, what Bethesda did and what they should have done is a long list.
bp377 wrote: You might conceivably pair unarmed combat with a Knight-like build in Heavy Armour as a backup for when your weapon breaks and you've nothing left to fight your enemy, it would explain the inclusion of Hand to Hand in classes like the Knight... in Oblivion.
But since Skyrim is blessed with indestructible weapons, a heavily armoured knight isn't going to need to fall back on their fists when things get really rough, this just leaves Monks as the only real users of unarmed combat as it is their primary form of combat, Monks are fast and evasive so Light Armour seems like a better skill, from a thematic perspective, to put unarmed perks in, of course this is in spite of the fact that Monks do not usually wear armour but the perks have to go somewhere and regardless of what Bethesda did Light Armour seems like the more sensible choice for unarmed in Vokrii given that tree's general idea of speed and evasion over raw damage taking.
KlausGamingShow wrote: Why not create defensive unarmed perks for Light Armor and move the existing offensive perks to Pickpocket? You know, just like daggers require investment in both 1H and Sneak to master, fist fighting would require LA and PP. This would fit the flavor of Khajiit and Argonians being the best unarmed combatants for their proficiency with thieving skills. Also, it'd give one more source of damage to pure Stealth characters, which is very welcomed.
(Ok, I've put more thought into it and now I see a reason why Bethesda gave the unarmed perk to Heavy Armor. It's because most brawlers in the game are Orcs and Warriors wearing HA. So, changing that could affect their effectiveness in brawls somehow, but I'm not sure. It's a tricky one. Maybe the ideal is to implement Hand-to-Hand as a hidden skill tree visualized via MCM, similarly to how Kryptopyr implemented the Cooking skill in CACO, but that doesn't seem minimalist.)
northtexan95 wrote: I still prefer my idea of either having Unarmed in both with different stats on the perks and/or having it separate from the armor categories.
StevetheKoala wrote: As this is a point of contention, I want to say that I don't love either the light or heavy armour trees for hand to hand, but if you have to pick one, light armour is the obvious choice. Knight and warrior characters, who have traditionally had access to hand to hand, don't, but archers and barbarians do gain access to it and it is a little more accessible for monks and monks and barbarians are the two character builds that should always have easy access to hand to hand.
Personally, I like block and alteration as your hand to hand skills, but that has proven to be an unpopular suggestion in the past. Given that is the case, I will come firmly down on the side of the light armour tree.
KlausGamingShow wrote: The problem of giving unarmed perks to both armor skills is that players might feel compelled to grind levels in an overlapping skill, they'd otherwise never level up, just to get all the related perks. That doesn't seem particularly fun or intuitive to me.
Now, while I like the idea of moving the perks to another skill tree entirely (I suggested Pickpocket), I recognize that it might not be considered a minimalist approach. That being said, I think the most natural scenario would be the perks going either to Light or Heavy Armor trees. The former being more friendly to common sense and the latter to vanilla Skyrim, so it really depends on what we value the most.
jacobe96 wrote: Light Armor makes the most sense for unarmed. Also the perk "Armor Padding" is super cool. Now you can wear robes on top of the armor to look more like a monk. Thanks for the awesome work!
Also Ocato's Preparation is an awesome perk!
vanguardian1 wrote: If I may suggest, why not add an "unarmed" perk to both light and heavy armor trees? Simply require 3 pieces of that armor type (so you can go helmet-less) to use those perk abilities of that tree......
EnaiSiaion wrote: I continue to not understand why people want unarmed perks in multiple trees. No other weapon has this...?
kasai409 wrote: i don't know how strong monks are, or if that would break balance, never played one, but why put the unarmed perk in an armor tree to begin with? why not one-handed? you are attacking with one hand, it's an offensive tree, and it already has the dagger perk in vanilla, which is kinda similar.
tassadarfanboy wrote: Good question. My best guess is "least likelihood of dead perk points". If you're doing an unarmed build, you're fighting unarmed and not with a wepaon, and since one-handed has 1H as a base perk you will *certainly* spend at least one point spent on the tree opening perk unlocking the unarmed branch. That's a one perk point tax giving you nothing for your target playstyle. Light Armor, you may or may not use, you might go armorless save for alteration mage armor or even heavy armor, but investing in the base light armor perk tree will probably give you something immediately useful in return.
solidsirhc wrote: Why not unarmed in the one-handed tree? Seems more balanced to me.
- To train any weapon and an armour, you have to level up two skills (one-handed+heavy armour or archery+light armour), so enemies scale accordingly. If unarmed was also in one-handed, this would still apply, as opposed to damage and defence being raised in a single skill.
- This way both light and heavy armour users can make use of unarmed combat, as well as robe users.
tassadarfanboy wrote: Nothing prohibits you from using heavy armor + unarmed. The requirements to use unarmed perks is perk points into light armor for unlock and have both hands empty when using them, and the damage scales of stamina total. It does end up with exactly the problem I mentioned before (wasting one perk point into a skill you're not actually using) and you end up with dead combat XP shunted into a useless skill if you're not wearing light armor. Come to think of it, maybe moving the branch to 1H might be better.
Such is the dilemma of designs when you can't just add new skills altogether.
devoidofcontent wrote: I really like the idea of putting the unarmed perks into the One-Handed tree. The first unarmed perk could make the damage scale with the basic One-Handed perks, so your perk point to gain access is not lost.
Putting it back into Heavy Armor would make the Ki Strike perk feel a little out of place. And while there's a point to be made about Ki Strike being a better fit for Alteration, Enai's reason why he doesn't want to spread unarmed over multiple trees seems valid to me.
EnaiSiaion wrote:
I really like the idea of putting the unarmed perks into the One-Handed tree.
Losing VR compatibility due to the 18 perk limit.
devoidofcontent wrote: That's a bummer if it's not possible because of VR.
Unarmed being in the Heavy Armor tree in vanilla at least made some logical sense, because it required Heavy Armor gauntlets. Without this condition it's a bit random in either of the armor trees.
Perhaps it could instead be featured inside both, but restricted to wearing the respective armor type in the hands slot. That way you could choose between a high mobility monk or a low mobility juggernaut and nobody would feel forced to invest in both, because you can only benefit from one at a time.
Teccam wrote: Respectfully, Enai, I'm not sure there is enough evidence to suggest that Heavy Armor is the preferred place to put the unarmed perks. As you know better than most people on this site, there will *always* be people who disagree one way or another. The trick is to identify when a "common" request is still a minority opinion, because the majority is content with the current system and therefore remaining silent.
I humbly request that you keep the unarmed perks in Light Armor. You yourself admit it makes much more sense from both a logistical standpoint as well as for the purposes of logical builds and traditional TES class archetypes. Bethesda giving a single Heavy Armor perk a small benefit in unarmed combat was an aberration compared to the franchise's historical treatment of unarmed characters, and I feel it would be inappropriate to move unarmed as a whole into Heavy Armor just to appease a few people. (I haven't even seen any actual argument for this, other than "Fists of Steel is in Heavy Armor" which as I noted above is really not an argument at all...)
rbartmoss wrote: "Spicing things up" without any actual gameplay purpose is definitely not any reason to make a change. I mean, why don't you move the unarmed perks to Enchanting this time? It would really spice things up a lot.
As for "that's how Vanilla does it"... uh... isn't getting away from the horrible Vanilla perk system exactly why we use mods such as Volkri or Ordinator? :D I guess there is a minor compatibility argument in there somewhere, but I'm not sure I see it. What heavy-armored character actually goes unarmed, other than for shits and giggles?
theblueshark wrote: weird how people want it in the heavy armor tree. The characters in RPGs that have the unarmed feats are usually unarmored characters or light armored ones. If you ask me leave it in the light armor tree where it makes more sense but I guess to each their own.
KlausGamingShow wrote:
I continue to not understand why people want unarmed perks in multiple trees. No other weapon has this...?
Actually, Enai, the Sneak tree has perks related to One-Handed and Bows.
The characters in RPGs that have the unarmed feats are usually unarmored characters or light armored ones.
That's the matter. We are talking about Skyrim, not "the average RPG". In Skyrim, all brawlers that also happen to be followers (Uthgerd, Cosnach and Benor) prefer Heavy Armor. Go ahead and check for yourself: https://elderscrolls...m/wiki/Brawling. Also, most NPCs meant to be formidable brawlers, such as Orc chieftains, wear HA. I mean, one could simply ignore that aspect and think whatever they want is right, but when they care about worldbuilding, details like these become a big deal.
theblueshark wrote: Cosnach is wearing light armors, I assume the reason why his Heavy Armor is high is that the generic skill tree of Skyrim places the unarmed skills under it... on a side note the pugilist glove is light armored... I respect your opinion if you want it in Heavy Armor.. In the end its EnaiSiaion's decision where to place it... cheers friend
devoidofcontent wrote: Like always in these matters there are many valid arguments for different design priorities. Now I'm only curious what Enai will come up with in the end. It was an insightful discussion though, thanks guys!
rogersemerad wrote: The 18 perk limit for VR has been solved for a while by https://www.nexusmod...tion/mods/16330, so that at least doesn't need to be considered here.
After thinking about this and reading responses, my preference is strongly in the camp of putting it in the one-handed tree. It just makes so much more sense to treat unarmed as just another weapon type with it's own specializations. Most of the problems with the vanilla treatment stem from that. Putting it into Heavy Armor is a decent second choice, since Vokrii is trying to be "vanilla-ish".
Although it's beyond the scope of this particular mod, my pie in the sky wish for a perk mod would be to have the armor trees combined into one and make a new Athletics tree in place of the displaced one. With all the overlap between the two armor trees it makes a lot of sense to combine them. Armor mastery, Armor Fit, Armor Set, and Helmet Replacement would now work with either armor type, and there would still be the specific options to specialize in Heavy or Light, and those wouldn't work with both. The new Athletics tree would get some of the Light Armor stuff, Like Windrunner and Evasive Sprint, as well as the Unarmed perks. You would need to come up with some new concepts for the Athletics tree in order to really fill it out, and you'd probably need to add a variable to a lot of them that would decrease their effectiveness in proportion to the weight of worn armor. That would still allow a Heavy armor specialist to get some of those benefits if being super athletic is part of their character concept, and would give light armor the ability to really capitalize on those advantages, especially when they get the weightless armor perk. It would also give unarmored characters the ability to have some proactive defensive measures without dabbling in an armor tree.
Not a solution. Too many people don't read compatibility notes. Also, you shouldn't need a third party hack.
After thinking about this and reading responses, my preference is strongly in the camp of putting it in the one-handed tree. It just makes so much more sense to treat unarmed as just another weapon type with it's own specializations. Most of the problems with the vanilla treatment stem from that. Putting it into Heavy Armor is a decent second choice, since Vokrii is trying to be "vanilla-ish".
Okay, so let's say it goes into the one-handed tree and the user finds their way through the "vanilla-plus" 21 perk ball..Then why doesn't it work when you have literally one free hand and a shield in the other? Why do you need two hands? (Users don't care about technical limitations, particularly when it's in a tree that has the thing you can't do in its name. Vokrii makes those perks look easy, but they aren't. PerMa needed a convoluted workaround in the form of invisible weapons.) Also, why don't you benefit from the dual wield perks with two free hands? Hell, why don't you benefit from those perks with one free hand and one weapon, if they're both considered one-handed weapons? Okay, let's add this feature. Now you can weapon block AND benefit from the dual wield perks, making you a total idiot if you equip two actual weapons and can't block, or go two-handed and miss out on the dual wield bonuses. Etc.
People don't like it when ambiguities are not resolved in their favour, or when something looks like it should work but it doesn't. (See: Intuitive Magic + Vancian Magic.)
Heavy Armor has the advantage of being canon. As mentioned above, this is a world where people punch each other's platemai until one side surrenders.
Although it's beyond the scope of this particular mod, my pie in the sky wish for a perk mod would be to have the armor trees combined into one and make a new Athletics tree in place of the displaced one.
Breaks compatibility with EVERYTHING. SkyRe could get away with it in 2014. Today, no one is updating mods or making patches anymore.
Also you can't change where the XP for being hit goes.
Jason0905 wrote: rogersemerad, as a VR player I was ecstatic to hear there would be a lightweight version of Ordinator that would not need to rely on any additional fixes to get running. Extending the number of perks beyond 18 would defeat the point of the mod being lightweight in the first place. Two features of the mod stated in the description are, 'Compatible with almost everything, easily made compatible with the rest.' & 'Lightweight scripts, no save bloat.' Personally if unarmed gets moved around it wouldn't affect me, as melee is sub-par in VR without a huge play area (especially fists). But bloating out the mod with big perk trees requiring an additional fix would shadow the original purpose of the mod.
EnaiSiaion wrote:
melee is sub-par in VR without a huge play area (especially fists).
If you punch the wall by accident, it might simulate punching dragon scale.
I'm reminded of the Beat Saber version of You Spin Me Right Round that has the player spin around with their controllers and presumably avoid windmill smashing their computer to the floor.
Jason0905 wrote: Haven't played that song yet, sounds unique like the Gangdam Style track that gets you doing the dance. If watching videos of people throwing their Wii remotes at the TV has taught me anything, it's to always wear the straps and clear the play area!
rogersemerad wrote: The VR version is actually the reason that I'm interested in this. I'm currently waiting on getting enough money for a VR capable rig to upgrade my computer ( my experience with Skyrim so far has been on the Switch ), so I guess my inexperience in modding lead me to believe that the perk extender was pretty simple and basic. From reading up on the modding scene I thought that if you knew how to mod at all the perk extender would be no problem. I can appreciate the simplicity of your current solution if that's not the case.
Some of the inconsistancies between how Skyrim treats unarmed and armed weapons didn't occur to me. I didn't think shields would be a problem because it works in Skyrim in vanilla. One of my characters I made was a Kahjiit destruction/heavy armor+unarmed shield mage, but the two-weapon fighting perks I had not considered.
My pie in the sky ideas were me just thinking about the conceptual problems with putting unarmed in an armored tree. I wasn't actually asking for it, just using it as a talking point about how Skyrim handles the movement/defense/armor part of the game. With all that said now I'm actually curious about how unarmed works under the hood. It sounds like PerMa does something like this, when I get my rig I'll have to look under the hood of that and Ordinator/Vokrii and see if it's something I might be able to do myself.
Cosnach is wearing light armors, I assume the reason why his Heavy Armor is high is that the generic skill tree of Skyrim places the unarmed skills under it...
I did notice that inconsistency as well, but imo it's a lot easier to ignore (or modify) just one character in wrong armor set than everyone else.
on a side note the pugilist glove is light armored...
Yes, it's intended to be an alternative to using Heavy gauntlets, not a power creep.
I respect your opinion if you want it in Heavy Armor..
I appreciate it, but I don't "want" it to stay in Heavy Armor. I'm just throwing arguments to make sure people understand why things are as they are and avoid asking for changes only for the sake of changing. In fact, I'd be happier if unarmed perks were extinct and unarmed combat was made in a separate pseudo-skill tree, but I suppose that would be out of the scope of this mod.
In the end its EnaiSiaion's decision where to place it... cheers friend
Amen, friend. Cheers!
Edited by KlausGamingShow, 04 June 2019 - 08:08 PM.
In response to post #70640128. #70657983 is also a reply to the same post.
Spoiler
Teccam wrote: Has anyone tested Alkahest & Death's Emperor together yet? I know in vanilla, enhanced crossbows actually do *less* damage against enemies whose AR is below 0. With Death's Emperor, any affected target would most likely be below 0 AR, so if Alkahest functions similarly to Enhanced Crossbows, I'm worried the same issue will apply.
EnaiSiaion wrote: Your crossbows still have this bug, but I fixed it in these perks.
Brilliant. Thank you so much, Enai. Been a supporter on Patreon for over half a year now, and I can't think of any mod author who deserves it more than you.
If it's not too much trouble, could you clarify: Do you mean that if I combine Alkahest & Death's Emporer, Alkahest is not applied (i.e., no armor is ignored)? Or will I actually do more damage to targets <0 AR if I have Alkahest?
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