Jump to content

Photo

Taking a step backwards?


  • Please log in to reply
100 replies to this topic

#1
Dark0ne

Dark0ne

    Webmaster

  • Admin
  • 21,425 posts
Are Bethesda taking a step backwards by not releasing an SDK with Fallout 3 as they have in the past with Morrowind and Oblivion, or are they just taking the logical approach of finishing the game first, and adding the flare later? Do many PC gamers even care about the SDK at all?

From the biased perspective of an Elder Scrolls mod junkie with the traffic statistics of a major modding site I can't help but feeling let down by the lack of modding tools for Fallout 3. While I enjoyed both vanilla Morrowind and Oblivion, giving them perhaps 30 hours each, the few extra hundred hours I've clocked up in the games has no doubt come from the excellent modding capabilities of the games. Similarly, I know from Oblivion's release that there are some things that many people disagree with the developers on (for example the return of our friend; horrible levelled creatures), so the tools to remove a potentially game destroying dynamic (hello rogues with glass armour *facepalm*) is an absolute godsend. In the "2.0" internet era of opening the user up to more modifyable possibilites, releasing an SDK in-line with the launch of the game was a breathe of fresh air, a revitalising move from a game developer that other game developers should have taken heed of but for some reason didn't.

But do most people really care about modding their game? TESNexus has close to 750,000 members who have registered in order to download mods from the site, but is this a big number compared to the total number of people who bought the PC version of Oblivion? And of those 750,000, how many would have been content without mods in their game? That's one for Bethesda to decide I guess.

I cannot help but feel not releasing an SDK with the game on launch is a step backwards by Bethesda; a return to the run-of-the-mill game developers that litter the gaming industry who come out with phrases like "we're running a business here". Why not take a step forward by doing something (sensationalist word incoming) revolutionary; like open modding up to the console users? Imagine the press such a feat would achieve. Such things have been suggested but shot down by Bethesda as undoable, but are they really? I've got no clue; my layman brain sees two consoles with hard-drives and they can't understand why it isn't possible. Some people throw their DLC conspiracies around; that Bethesda don't want to release the mod tools or explore their open-source use more liberally because they want to promote their own "buy-to-play" downloadable content. I tend to think it might be more to do with Bethesda not really seeing much $$$ in such an endeavour compared to the amount of effort. And they may well be right. But you still can't help feeling hard-done by, even if they've done us good in the past.

#2
Galahaut

Galahaut

    Old hand

  • Premium Member
  • 718 posts
I'll go with a simple "Yes."

Plenty of developers have no issues releasing SDKs, construction sets, map editors, etc. User generated content is becoming more and more popular and prevalent both in gaming, especially with games like Spore and Little Big Planet, and in general, with the rise of independent blogging, YouTube, etc.

Not releasing some form of "Construction Set" would be a horrible mistake. I already think Bethesda is making a mistake by not releasing the game with one at launch. They will be squandering all the enthusiasm surrounding the launch, the free advertising from the community, etc.

The excuses Pete Hines keeps churning out are just silly, as usual. Morrowind and Oblivion had a CS on launch, but somehow it's too difficult to accomplish the same for Fallout 3? As I mentioned earlier, plenty of other games from other developers have been released with some sort of editor.

It seems like Bethesda is becoming more of a "rush everything out the door, make a quick buck, and move on!" company. Oblivion received a few patches, some terrible DLC, one expansion, and a broken CS update, and was then abandoned for Fallout 3. There are still hundreds of issues, some very major (abomb). Of course, the modding community fixes as many of these issues as they can, but the poor console users are out of luck.

What will we see with FO3? One patch, one expansion, and then off to TESV? Although, maybe that would be a good thing...

Of course, perhaps without a Construction Set, Bethesda will actually fix their problems themselves this time?

Hah, yeah right.

Edited by Galahaut, 28 October 2008 - 01:38 AM.


#3
lyobovnik

lyobovnik

    Fan

  • Premium Member
  • 369 posts
Pete's excuses so far are complete BS if we remember previous statements about the tools for Oblivion & Morrowind...

We've been told that the CS is one of the first things they develop, so that they can build the world, and we've also been told to not expect any features beyond what they, the devs, needed to make the game.

Reading between the lines, it might seems as if the release of the FO3CS is dependent upon whether Bethesda feels they have the time/money to "cripple" their existing (perfectly usable) tools extensively enough to prevent unapproved uses.

Edited by lyobovnik, 28 October 2008 - 01:27 AM.


#4
hellbishop

hellbishop

    Faithful poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,357 posts

It seems like Bethesda is becoming more of a "rush everything out the door, make a quick buck, and move on!" company. Oblivion received a few patches, some terrible DLC, one expansion, and a broken CS update, and was then abandoned for Fallout 3. There are still hundreds of issues, some very major (abomb). Of course, the modding community fixes as many of these issues as they can, but the poor console users are out of luck.

What will we see with FO3? One patch, one expansion, and then off to TESV? Although, maybe that would be a good thing...

Of course, perhaps without a Construction Set, Bethesda will actually fix their problems themselves this time?

Hah, yeah right.


I agree totally. It didnt really hit me what Bethesda had done til the release of FALLOUT 3 got closer and closer. Its kind of annoying to think just finding the pc version of OBLIVION on release was just about impossible with every store in the New York City area only carrying the X-Box version (cough cough) then to finally get a hold of a copy only to see it riddled with bugs. Now here it is years later and the game still needs a lot of fixes but Bethesda only bothers when its an extreme emergency. It seems the days of intense patching from the old days of TES 2 DAGGERFALL to make the game the best it can be are gone.

Embarrassing to have to use a homemade texture mod to improve fps rates when companies like BIOWARE do this kind of stuff for their customers for free with NEVERWINTER NIGHTS releasing heavy duty patches years after the games release aswell as huge mods that are worth paying for. Bioware still has time to both create epic games even while supporting their customer base with game fixes and enhancements for their already released products.

I've already decided to hold off purchasing FALLOUT 3 til later instead of right on release day like i used to in the past. Since Bethesda likes to reward those who purchase later with a fixed product theres no point in buying it right away especially if i have to look all over the city on release day to only find the X-Box version instead of pc version aswell.

After playing The WITCHER ENHANCED EDITION and NEVERWINTER NIGHTS 2 i have seen what are real fleshed out games which dont feel rushed out the door and where the companies involved really care about leaving behind a good taste in players mouth instead of apple pie without the filling.

Playing DEAD SPACE at the moment and its just one more reminder of what OBLIVION could have been but wasnt.

Thank goodness for mod tools eventhough i dont feel they are the real answer since no one can fix the problem the way the people who actually worked on the code can.

Thanks for reading and congratulations Dark0ne on the FALLOUT 3 Forums birth :)

#5
l3illyl3ob

l3illyl3ob

    Stranger

  • Banned
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
Of course Bethesda will release a Construction Set, the question is when. People seem to forget that Oblivion did NOT ship with the TES Construction Set. After the game went gold, Bethesda admitted that the disc would not contain the SDK, and that they instead waited until after they finished the game to polish it up. Then, 2 days after the game's release, it was out.

I'm not saying Fallout 3 will go that quickly. But they seem to be approaching it from the same mindset. You have to remember, even though this exists, and is the first thing they work on, it's a developer tool. They're made specifically for the task of creating Fallout 3. There's going to be a very large amount of unpolished or incomplete features, and these all need to be fixed and attended to if they are to release it to the general public. These types of dev tools are, more often than not, very crude, and built just to get the job done. It's now up to Bethesda to transform them into something that anybody could pick up and make content out of, and that's no small task. This is likely what the cause of the delay is.

Edited by l3illyl3ob, 28 October 2008 - 06:14 AM.


#6
Skotte

Skotte

    Mod Freekie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,496 posts
Beth had to have thought that at least some of the many talented modders that worked on TES 3-4 would want to take a stab at modding FO3. So Yeah Imho it looks like Beth wants a title that is effectively "mod-free" Ala Pre-MW. And even tho I haven't released any mods I have used the CS's of both Morrowind & Oblivion at least as much as I played those two games.

#7
jaysus

jaysus

    Mishka The Ape & The Seven Dutchmen

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,442 posts
beth became a slave... thats all about it...
they dont make their own games anymore (well prolly due to daggerfall) and think they depend on consoles which are made for people too retarded to understand how to use a multitude of features thus just reducing em seems a good option...
and with the option of doing a fallout mmorpg if activision(or whoever that was) doesnt get enough money together quick i believe they see more bucks than happy gamers in their mindset...
its tragic, its nasty but its true...
lets hope someone in the company is sane enough to just release an sdk... if not well i wont give a damn about another pitiful fallout endevaour since most games i played over the last few years were kinda boring and unmotivating if it were not for the mods... stories suck (kotor1 excluded), quests are "kinda" repetetive and all these fancy looks of up to date graphics do no good if every corner in a world as big as arizona looks exactly the same... like arizona... thats were mods jumped in and saved medicore games to live on for years (and ya sorry to say that but vanilla oblivion is just medicore joywise)... at least as far as they could due to hardcoded restrictions... who knows who invented that crap anyway... why hardcode the number of magical effects? why hardcode weapon nodes? etc and why not tell anyone how to soft it up...
all i see is the sheer greed to keep control over somin that is not controllable... well and here we are at the utmost problem of society in general... blablabla conspiracy blablabla... evil blablabla...

#8
Tehpastaboy

Tehpastaboy

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 172 posts
If Bethesda doesn't release a CS for F3 VERY soon after launch, they're making a huge mistake. I love Oblivion, and have played it for a loooong time- but I don't play it without mods, and I wouldn't still be playing it if I hadn't discovered TESsource back in the day.

#9
Arthmoor

Arthmoor

    Destroyer of Bugs

  • Premium Member
  • 21,626 posts
I wouldn't worry too much about it. The Oblivion CS didn't show up on launch day either. I know it was a few days later, but it did come. Maybe the one for FO3 will take longer, but I seriously doubt Beth is going to shoot themselves in the foot by leaving FO3 non-moddable. After all, MW and OB are still generating sales because of mods years later. I know at least 3 people personally who bought GOTY editions of both MW and OB in the last month alone solely because they heard about some awesome mod they could play. They've all since discovered that there's plenty more where they came from.

And lets not discount the fact that even without mods, Oblivion was still quite the game. I have no doubt FO3 will be able to stand on its own merits out of the box, and future mods will only make it that much better.

#10
Nanolathe

Nanolathe

    Enthusiast

  • Premium Member
  • 195 posts
Not releasing a game with the SDK I can live with for a while... but PLANNING NOT TO!?!? What on earth are they thinking? Oblivion without some very simple CS mods is unplayable for me; Keychain, race and birthsign tweaks, not to mention complex total overhauls like Oscuro or even something as deceptively simple as TNR has changed Oblivion from "standard" to "brilliant"

Bethesda are mad if they honestly WONT release a CS




IPB skins by Skinbox
Page loaded in: 0.982 seconds