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Vortex/LOOT: METADATA and RULE HELP, Load Order


sterekseeker

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Hello. I have a problem with Alternate Start and ELFX, in that ELFX is potentially messing with the opening of Alternate Start.

I asked the mod author of Alternate Start about this, and they said the problem is ELFX likely loading after Alt.Start. When I checked on LOOT, that happened the be the case: ELFX - Hardcore.esp is loading after Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp. I went back into Vortex tried to reorder these two, to get Hardcore.esp to load before Alt.Start, but the app is not allowing me to, citing "cyclic rules".

When I checked the metadata for both .esps in LOOT, Hardcore.esp has a rule stating that it must be loaded after Alternate Start. I didn't put that rule in! Apparently there's a cloud of user metadata that goes into LOOT; fine but I can't actually edit any of it. I really need that rule knocked out of the metadata for Alternate Start to function properly in my game, or at least to test if ELFX is the issue.

I've looked up online and apparently this is a big issue with Vortex and LOOT, but I haven't found any solutions. I'm hoping someone by now, more in-tune with modding than I am, has found or come up with something. I really like both mods and I don't want to do without them, so any help would be much appreciated.

Formatted for skim-readers. Thank you to anyone who replies.

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Stop using Loot with Vortex, it's already built in

 

 

Put alternate Start in the DYNAMIC PATCH group and it should go to the bottom of your load order

 

Let me know if it gives you a circular reference, because if it does, then it's probably got a built in hardwritten loot sorting rule

 

I figured you meant uninstall LOOT so I did that; then I uninstalled and re-installed Vortex before making the group change. I tried it out and it didn't work, I'm still getting the warning. ELFX - Hardcore.esp is in the "High Priority Overrides" group, which looking at the Manage Groups map loads before Dynamic Patches and Late Loaders (which I believe was the group Vortex/LOOT assigned Alt.Start...) if I'm reading the map correctly, so I don't understand why Hardcore.esp is lower in the load order than Alternate Start. Yes, I think there's a hardwritten rule within LOOT that's messing with my load order.

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Stop using Loot with Vortex, it's already built in

 

 

Put alternate Start in the DYNAMIC PATCH group and it should go to the bottom of your load order

 

Let me know if it gives you a circular reference, because if it does, then it's probably got a built in hardwritten loot sorting rule

 

I figured you meant uninstall LOOT so I did that; then I uninstalled and re-installed Vortex before making the group change. I tried it out and it didn't work, I'm still getting the warning. ELFX - Hardcore.esp is in the "High Priority Overrides" group, which looking at the Manage Groups map loads before Dynamic Patches and Late Loaders (which I believe was the group Vortex/LOOT assigned Alt.Start...) if I'm reading the map correctly, so I don't understand why Hardcore.esp is lower in the load order than Alternate Start. Yes, I think there's a hardwritten rule within LOOT that's messing with my load order.

 

 

You need to go on the LOOT Discord server and request they change the LOOT rule, because that's hardcoded right now in the rules.

 

I had to do that with a different mod, they changed the rule to 'conditional' for me

 

 

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Stop using Loot with Vortex, it's already built in

 

 

Put alternate Start in the DYNAMIC PATCH group and it should go to the bottom of your load order

 

Let me know if it gives you a circular reference, because if it does, then it's probably got a built in hardwritten loot sorting rule

 

I figured you meant uninstall LOOT so I did that; then I uninstalled and re-installed Vortex before making the group change. I tried it out and it didn't work, I'm still getting the warning. ELFX - Hardcore.esp is in the "High Priority Overrides" group, which looking at the Manage Groups map loads before Dynamic Patches and Late Loaders (which I believe was the group Vortex/LOOT assigned Alt.Start...) if I'm reading the map correctly, so I don't understand why Hardcore.esp is lower in the load order than Alternate Start. Yes, I think there's a hardwritten rule within LOOT that's messing with my load order.

 

 

You need to go on the LOOT Discord server and request they change the LOOT rule, because that's hardcoded right now in the rules.

 

I had to do that with a different mod, they changed the rule to 'conditional' for me

 

 

 

 

Au contraire, I seriously wonder if the rule needs to be changed globally. OP's problem may be specific to his setup and a result of other conflicts in that setup. In one of my Skyrim SE profiles, I have "Alternate Start" and "ELFX (Hardcore)" installed, and the two mods play well together in spite of (because of?) the following load order:

 

Plugin Load order Group

 

EnhancedLightsandFX.esp. 15 Underrides

 

Alternate Start -

Live Another Life.esp 125 Core Mods

 

ELFX - Hardcore.esp 127 High Priority Overrides

 

It's true that the cyclic rule warning is triggered if one moves "Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp" to the Dynamic Patches group so that it loads after "EFFfX - Hardcore.esp." As suggested, this is probably because this load order violates a hardwritten rule in LOOT. However, in my own Skyrim SE setup I don't need to change this LOOT rule, because my game runs well with the load order described above.

Edited by Augusta Calidia
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Au contraire, I seriously wonder if the rule needs to be changed globally. OP's problem may be specific to his setup and a result of other conflicts in that setup. In one of my Skyrim SE profiles, I have "Alternate Start" and "ELFX (Hardcore)" installed, and the two mods play well together in spite of (because of?) the following load order:

 

Plugin Load order Group

 

EnhancedLightsandFX.esp. 15 Underrides

 

Alternate Start -

Live Another Life.esp 125 Core Mods

 

ELFX - Hardcore.esp 127 High Priority Overrides

 

It's true that the cyclic rule warning is triggered if one moves "Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp" to the Dynamic Patches group so that it loads after "EFFfX - Hardcore.esp." As suggested, this is probably because this load order violates a hardwritten rule in LOOT. However, in my own Skyrim SE setup I don't need to change this LOOT rule, because my game runs well with the load order described above.

 

 

 

I spoke too soon.

I just looked at my Plugin load order

 

Out of 245 Esms, Esps, ESPfes, Alternate Start is sitting at 207 in Core Mods

However, I don't use ELFX

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Stop using Loot with Vortex, it's already built in

 

 

Put alternate Start in the DYNAMIC PATCH group and it should go to the bottom of your load order

 

Let me know if it gives you a circular reference, because if it does, then it's probably got a built in hardwritten loot sorting rule

I figured you meant uninstall LOOT so I did that; then I uninstalled and re-installed Vortex before making the group change. I tried it out and it didn't work, I'm still getting the warning. ELFX - Hardcore.esp is in the "High Priority Overrides" group, which looking at the Manage Groups map loads before Dynamic Patches and Late Loaders (which I believe was the group Vortex/LOOT assigned Alt.Start...) if I'm reading the map correctly, so I don't understand why Hardcore.esp is lower in the load order than Alternate Start. Yes, I think there's a hardwritten rule within LOOT that's messing with my load order.

 

You need to go on the LOOT Discord server and request they change the LOOT rule, because that's hardcoded right now in the rules.

 

I had to do that with a different mod, they changed the rule to 'conditional' for me

 

 

Oh jeez, I wonder what could be my problem then!? The rest of my game is running fine, the only problem seems to be the odd disconnection in the Alt.Start prison cells. Other than being annoying to look at, it isn't a huge negative. I don't want to have the rule changed if the load order works for everyone else and the problem is on my end. I can't think of what I could have done wrong in installation; however I do have another mod that adds a new object into the Alt.Start prison cell, and now I'm wondering if the issue could stem from there.

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Oh jeez, I wonder what could be my problem then!? The rest of my game is running fine, the only problem seems to be the odd disconnection in the Alt.Start prison cells. Other than being annoying to look at, it isn't a huge negative. I don't want to have the rule changed if the load order works for everyone else and the problem is on my end. I can't think of what I could have done wrong in installation; however I do have another mod that adds a new object into the Alt.Start prison cell, and now I'm wondering if the issue could stem from there.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that would be the first thing I would suspect.

Something that adds something directly to the cell you're experiencing trouble with is in all likelihood going to be the problem.

 

 

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Oh jeez, I wonder what could be my problem then!? The rest of my game is running fine, the only problem seems to be the odd disconnection in the Alt.Start prison cells. Other than being annoying to look at, it isn't a huge negative. I don't want to have the rule changed if the load order works for everyone else and the problem is on my end. I can't think of what I could have done wrong in installation; however I do have another mod that adds a new object into the Alt.Start prison cell, and now I'm wondering if the issue could stem from there.

 

Yes, that would be the first thing I would suspect.

Something that adds something directly to the cell you're experiencing trouble with is in all likelihood going to be the problem.

 

 

I hope so, and all my overthinking was just that, overthinking! Lol

 

[Edit]/ Nope, still didn't work. I even tried to reinstall Alternate Start again, no change. But, like I mentioned, the rest of my game seems to be running fine, with no weird glitches outside of the prison. This might just be something I have to let go, although the idea of there being something wrong with my game will keep me up a night a while longer, Lol. But okay, Skyrim freaked out on me, what else is new!

 

[Edit]/2 I thought I'd post my current load order in case it's enlightening:

 

 

Skyrim.esm

Update.esm

Dawnguard.esm

HearthFires.esm

Dragonborn.esm

ccvsvsse001-winter.esl

Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch.esp

Unofficial Saturalia Holiday Pack Patch.esl

ELFX - Exteriors.esp

Reverb and Ambiance Overhaul - Skyrim.esp

SkyUI_SE.esp

EnhancedLightsandFX.esp

icepenguinworldmapclassic.esp

iHUD.esp

timescale10.esp

Dawnguard Delayed - Level 20.esp

Dragonborn Delayed - After Dragonslayer.esp

FNIS.esp

FNISspells.esp

Containers and Leveled Lists Fixes.esp

(my wip player house)

Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp

ELFX - Hardcore.esp

RAO - Alternate Start Patch.esp

RAO - ELFX Patch.esp

 

 

Edited by sterekseeker
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@sterekseeker

 

You were right about the Alternate Start glitch after all! My apologies for causing you so much consternation about Alternate Start and ELFX Hardcore.

 

When I had started my current game I immediately opted for the "left for dead" start without paying attention to anything else in the prison cell. I encountered no problems. However, after reading your original post again, I wondered if I should investigate further. I therefore set up a test profile, and lo and behold! something was weird beyond the cell door. I chose the "escape the cell" option and walked into a void absent structure. After one or two steps, however, I was back in the Abandoned Prison and climbing some steps. Everything was fine after that except for the prisoners killing me. :sad:

 

The glitch is not a game breaker, but it is annoying. I tried several other alternate starts, and there were no issues there. The glitch seems to affect the cell door area only.

 

Having discovered my mistaken analysis of your problem, I spent some considerable time using SSEEdit to examine "Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp," "ELFXEnhancer.esp," and "ELFX - Hardcore.esp." My conclusion at this point is that "ELFX - Hardcore.esp" is simply incompatible with the prison cell configuration records found in "Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp." Load order adjustment will not solve the problem. Placing ELFX Hardcore after Alternate Start overwrites its records and therefore creates the void outside the cell door. On the other hand, if it were possible to place ELFX Hardcore before Alternate Start, the cell configuration records in Alternate Start would cancel out the ELFX Hardcore features for the cell.

 

Try as I might, I could not construct a patch that would overcome these obstacles. However, that doesn't mean that one can't be constructed. Perhaps there's a kind and knowledgeable soul out there who would help a damsel in distress and at the same time solve your problem.

 

Summary: Alternate Start and ELFX Hardcore have incompatible records relating to the Abandoned Prison cell, thus resulting in an "anomaly" at the prison cell door.

 

EDIT. Your load order looks fine. Also, the ELFXEnhancer option works well with Alternate Start. Finally, there's a patch "Enhanced Lights and FX - Alternate Start Patch," but it doesn't solve the record incompatibilities between Alternate Start and ELFX Hardcore.

Edited by Augusta Calidia
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