196 replies to this topic

[FireOogle]

In response to post #75215573. #75215913 is also a reply to the same post.

Spoiler

FireOogle wrote: Don't like the fact it shows games i haven't downloaded support for in the games window. I disable the plugins for every game i don't own, now it looks like i have to install plugins for games i will never buy just to disable them.

Tannin42 wrote: You can hide games, just click on the little + icon and then "Hide"

i clicked hide on red dead redemption but its still visible and clicking + again now gives the show option.

Hide only appears to work for games with the extension downloaded, not those where it isnt downloaded.

Edited by FireOogle, 27 November 2019 - 07:46 PM.

[1ae0bfb8]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

[Rooker75]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838, #75217268 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

1ae0bfb8 wrote: its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

Here, let me add the TL:DR version of this reply:
"We obviously know more than you about the specific combination of 350+ mods you've installed on top of each other and have no interest in acknowledging otherwise and will continue to make it tedious to override our obviously superior method of sorting your plugins in the impossible scenario that our sorting does something wrong."

Vortex needs less ego, more basic, expected functionality before it can seriously be considered for use.

Edited by Rooker75, 27 November 2019 - 08:36 PM.

[Arthmoor]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838, #75217268, #75217293 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

1ae0bfb8 wrote: its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

Rooker75 wrote: Here, let me add the TL:DR version of this reply:
"We obviously know more than you about the specific combination of 350+ mods you've installed on top of each other and have no interest in acknowledging otherwise and will continue to make it tedious to override our obviously superior method of sorting your plugins in the impossible scenario that our sorting does something wrong."

Vortex needs less ego, more basic, expected functionality before it can seriously be considered for use.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order.

I don't want to get into the old arguments either but I do want to point out that despite this, LOOT has some things loading in an illogical manner simply because their mod authors say that's best. Examples such as RDO and GDO come to mind where they're making a lot of global changes that aren't easily overridden by mods making more focused changes because LOOT has both of those loading late, often so late they may as well be last.

In a manual load order enabled system, that's as easy as dragging them both to somewhere more suitable. LOOT on the other hand needs specific rules to be created but even those may cause cyclic conflicts and such if they run into issues with other rules relating to the same mods.

Unfortunately "consensus" on placement for mods like this is difficult to overcome even with a good argument for why things need to change and so any system relying on LOOT will be beholden to those kinds of arguments before something is finally done about it.

[Rooker75]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838, #75217268, #75217293, #75217303 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

1ae0bfb8 wrote: its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

Rooker75 wrote: Here, let me add the TL:DR version of this reply:
"We obviously know more than you about the specific combination of 350+ mods you've installed on top of each other and have no interest in acknowledging otherwise and will continue to make it tedious to override our obviously superior method of sorting your plugins in the impossible scenario that our sorting does something wrong."

Vortex needs less ego, more basic, expected functionality before it can seriously be considered for use.

Arthmoor wrote:

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order.

I don't want to get into the old arguments either but I do want to point out that despite this, LOOT has some things loading in an illogical manner simply because their mod authors say that's best. Examples such as RDO and GDO come to mind where they're making a lot of global changes that aren't easily overridden by mods making more focused changes because LOOT has both of those loading late, often so late they may as well be last.

In a manual load order enabled system, that's as easy as dragging them both to somewhere more suitable. LOOT on the other hand needs specific rules to be created but even those may cause cyclic conflicts and such if they run into issues with other rules relating to the same mods.

Unfortunately "consensus" on placement for mods like this is difficult to overcome even with a good argument for why things need to change and so any system relying on LOOT will be beholden to those kinds of arguments before something is finally done about it.

Maybe we should just make an infinite, neverending thread of conflicts caused by LOOT that need to be sorted out manually until they get tired of it and either ban us or finally add the basic functionality originally created many, many years ago in the first mod manager.

I'll go second: No Leveled Reward Loot for Skyrim, which gets overridden by a Bash patch, leading to the need to move it below the Bash patch. LOOT, much to the shock of Nexus staff, I'm sure, sorts this incorrectly, leading to that mod being entirely nullified until the load order is fixed.

[jaydawg55]

Nice work everyone. You are creating the best mod manager in the business. Kudos.

[FelesNoctis]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838, #75217268, #75217293, #75217303, #75217948, #75218518 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

1ae0bfb8 wrote: its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

Rooker75 wrote: Here, let me add the TL:DR version of this reply:
"We obviously know more than you about the specific combination of 350+ mods you've installed on top of each other and have no interest in acknowledging otherwise and will continue to make it tedious to override our obviously superior method of sorting your plugins in the impossible scenario that our sorting does something wrong."

Vortex needs less ego, more basic, expected functionality before it can seriously be considered for use.

Arthmoor wrote:

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order.

I don't want to get into the old arguments either but I do want to point out that despite this, LOOT has some things loading in an illogical manner simply because their mod authors say that's best. Examples such as RDO and GDO come to mind where they're making a lot of global changes that aren't easily overridden by mods making more focused changes because LOOT has both of those loading late, often so late they may as well be last.

In a manual load order enabled system, that's as easy as dragging them both to somewhere more suitable. LOOT on the other hand needs specific rules to be created but even those may cause cyclic conflicts and such if they run into issues with other rules relating to the same mods.

Unfortunately "consensus" on placement for mods like this is difficult to overcome even with a good argument for why things need to change and so any system relying on LOOT will be beholden to those kinds of arguments before something is finally done about it.

Rooker75 wrote: Maybe we should just make an infinite, neverending thread of conflicts caused by LOOT that need to be sorted out manually until they get tired of it and either ban us or finally add the basic functionality originally created many, many years ago in the first mod manager.

I'll go second: No Leveled Reward Loot for Skyrim, which gets overridden by a Bash patch, leading to the need to move it below the Bash patch. LOOT, much to the shock of Nexus staff, I'm sure, sorts this incorrectly, leading to that mod being entirely nullified until the load order is fixed.

Audley wrote: I have two main issues when it comes to the whole LOOT system in Vortex. The first is that because Vortex appeals to a wide audience mostly consisting of newer and less experienced modders, it contributes to the "push button go" mentality. While I am in favor of making getting into modding easier, what I am not in favor of is letting the mod authors have to deal with these issues that are caused when Vortex inevitably does not make a good sorting decision. The vast majority of users who experience issues with Vortex DO NOT go to Nexus first. They go complain on the mod authors page to fix issues not even remotely caused by them and is out of their hands. I have seen this time and time again. It's infuriating and if I release another mod, I will not be supporting issues with Vortex. Period.

The second issue is that load order is not the end all be all solution to issues for the game. What people need to do is learn how to actually read descriptions, and learn how to actually mod their games in a way that makes sense. Making proper merged patches via xEdit and not relying on purely automated systems to handle everything for them.

My biggest issues are not the tools themselves, but the mod authors who pick up the slack for when the tools fail.

I've never really understood this argument against Vortex. I've always done manual sorting. Even after BOSS came out, I still would use it for initial positioning, then adjust things myself as seemed appropriate. Then LOOT makes custom rules even simpler to implement, and my LOOT sorting chart ended up looking like a spiderweb in a haunted house, based entirely off of comparisons in xEdit mixed with some trial and error.

Despite all the whinging people have about Vortex's forced LOOT sorting system, through all my testing I've yet to have a problem using the dependency anchor drag-and-drop. I tested this using a duplicate of my 1000+ mod install of Skyrim, and it worked just as well as my custom LOOT ruleset plus repositioning does in MO2. It isn't hard to use at all, and feels even more intuitive than LOOT's normal interface.

You're beating a dead horse at this point. If you prefer manual drag-and-drop sorting, use MO2, or Wrye Bash, or Kortex2 once Kerber's satisfied with it. There are alternatives if it really bothers you that much. Me, it's just a new interface for the same thing I've been doing for years, with some adaptation to take care of what manual sorting I did have to do.

And that's not saying I don't agree it should be an option. Options are good for users. I'm just saying there are OTHER options, and you aren't exactly forced to use Vortex if this is such a heinous crime.

EDIT:
If I were to add something actually productive to this, I'd say what I'd prefer to see with this system is the Deploy Order actually visually rearrange itself based off of the the dependencies you've set. My VtM:B install for instance, it always resets to displaying in alphabetical order (img), even when Deploy Order is selected. That's definitely a feature that needs work.

Edited by FelesNoctis, 27 November 2019 - 09:27 PM.

[Audley]

In response to post #75207123. #75207553, #75208618, #75209013, #75209178, #75209343, #75215838, #75217268, #75217293, #75217303, #75217948, #75218378 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Rooker75 wrote: I see it's still missing the basic drag & drop load order functionality expected of any serious mod management software in favor of ego-based "I know better than you" auto-sorting that's tedious to override. One of these days, you will need to learn how to put that ego aside and acknowledge that maybe we know our mod loadouts better than you do.

lonewanderer345 wrote: +1
That's the only reason i stopped using Vortex after giving it a trial run.
Loot doesn't do as good a job of sorting as you can do manually...so while I feel it is okay to have it available as an option for 'beginners' or those who feel 'lost' without it, for Vortex to appeal to more experienced mod users....as the option to build rules and priorities was just way too clunky and gave uncertain results. NMM is still superior in this aspect.

TheBottomhoodofSteel wrote: someone woke up entitled...

AugustaCalidia wrote: "Let me guess. Someone stole your sweetroll."

AlanPaul wrote: I clicked the link as soon as I saw the notification fully hoping and believing that this must be finally added.

Can't believe...

Pickysaurus wrote: Let's not turn this into that old argument - it has been done to death at this point. If you like to spend your time arranging your plugins in an exact order, that's your choice. Vortex uses LOOT and your custom groups/rules to build a working load order with far less effort. If you'd like to know more about the Vortex approach, BigBizkit wrote a very concise article about it.

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order. Every entry in the LOOT masterlist was contributed or updated by modders like you and me, so it's based on the collective experience of hundreds - if not thousands - of users. That said if you can find a combination of plugins Vortex sorts "wrong" every time and can provide steps to reproduce it, please create a thread over on the Vortex forums so we can look into it.

If it's your personal preference to do it your way, that is absolutely fine, just please respect that others have a different opinion to you about it.

FireOogle wrote: The question is more why there isn't an option to turn off the auto sorting really

I know if i want to add a master file to another file in vortex, i have to set up a rule to make sure it loads after the other file, to add the master to delete the rule. This is hardly easier than old system of dragging the file to bottom of load order then adding it.

The rules system is very messy, since it shows rules for all games at once, which makes things very confusing, especially if you use the same mod in more than one game and they have same esp name.

1ae0bfb8 wrote: its not missing any such thing. it does the same thing in a slightly different way is all.
if you have actual, genuine, empirical proof of just one mod being sorted wrong, show it. i'm yet to see any one person demonstrate that, yet here you are, peddling the fallacy. what do you get out of doing that, really?

Rooker75 wrote: Here, let me add the TL:DR version of this reply:
"We obviously know more than you about the specific combination of 350+ mods you've installed on top of each other and have no interest in acknowledging otherwise and will continue to make it tedious to override our obviously superior method of sorting your plugins in the impossible scenario that our sorting does something wrong."

Vortex needs less ego, more basic, expected functionality before it can seriously be considered for use.

Arthmoor wrote:

I think it's more about trusting that the community knowledge from LOOT is often greater than one person's idea of a good load order.

I don't want to get into the old arguments either but I do want to point out that despite this, LOOT has some things loading in an illogical manner simply because their mod authors say that's best. Examples such as RDO and GDO come to mind where they're making a lot of global changes that aren't easily overridden by mods making more focused changes because LOOT has both of those loading late, often so late they may as well be last.

In a manual load order enabled system, that's as easy as dragging them both to somewhere more suitable. LOOT on the other hand needs specific rules to be created but even those may cause cyclic conflicts and such if they run into issues with other rules relating to the same mods.

Unfortunately "consensus" on placement for mods like this is difficult to overcome even with a good argument for why things need to change and so any system relying on LOOT will be beholden to those kinds of arguments before something is finally done about it.

Rooker75 wrote: Maybe we should just make an infinite, neverending thread of conflicts caused by LOOT that need to be sorted out manually until they get tired of it and either ban us or finally add the basic functionality originally created many, many years ago in the first mod manager.

I'll go second: No Leveled Reward Loot for Skyrim, which gets overridden by a Bash patch, leading to the need to move it below the Bash patch. LOOT, much to the shock of Nexus staff, I'm sure, sorts this incorrectly, leading to that mod being entirely nullified until the load order is fixed.

FelesNoctis wrote: I've never really understood this argument against Vortex. I've always done manual sorting. Even after BOSS came out, I still would use it for initial positioning, then adjust things myself as seemed appropriate. Then LOOT makes custom rules even simpler to implement, and my LOOT sorting chart ended up looking like a spiderweb in a haunted house, based entirely off of comparisons in xEdit mixed with some trial and error.

Despite all the whinging people have about Vortex's forced LOOT sorting system, through all my testing I've yet to have a problem using the dependency anchor drag-and-drop. I tested this using a duplicate of my 1000+ mod install of Skyrim, and it worked just as well as my custom LOOT ruleset plus repositioning does in MO2. It isn't hard to use at all, and feels even more intuitive than LOOT's normal interface.

You're beating a dead horse at this point. If you prefer manual drag-and-drop sorting, use MO2, or Wrye Bash, or Kortex2 once Kerber's satisfied with it. There are alternatives if it really bothers you that much. Me, it's just a new interface for the same thing I've been doing for years, with some adaptation to take care of what manual sorting I did have to do.

And that's not saying I don't agree it should be an option. Options are good for users. I'm just saying there are OTHER options, and you aren't exactly forced to use Vortex if this is such a heinous crime.

EDIT:
If I were to add something actually productive to this, I'd say what I'd prefer to see with this system is the Deploy Order actually visually rearrange itself based off of the the dependencies you've set. My VtM:B install for instance, it always resets to displaying in alphabetical order (img), even when Deploy Order is selected. That's definitely a feature that needs work.

I have two main issues when it comes to the whole LOOT system in Vortex. The first is that because Vortex appeals to a wide audience mostly consisting of newer and less experienced modders, it contributes to the "push button go" mentality. While I am in favor of making getting into modding easier, what I am not in favor of is letting the mod authors have to deal with these issues that are caused when Vortex inevitably does not make a good sorting decision. The vast majority of users who experience issues with Vortex DO NOT go to Nexus first. They go complain on the mod authors page to fix issues not even remotely caused by them and is out of their hands. I have seen this time and time again. It's infuriating and if I release another mod, I will not be supporting issues with Vortex. Period.

The second issue is that load order is not the end all be all solution to issues for the game. What people need to do is learn how to actually read descriptions, and learn how to actually mod their games in a way that makes sense. Making proper merged patches via xEdit and not relying on purely automated systems to handle everything for them.

My biggest issues are not the tools themselves, but the mod authors who pick up the slack for when the tools fail.

Edit: I would like to say I don't think Vortex is overall a bad tool. I believe it has a lot of potential. I'm honestly just tired of answering questions and solving problems created by automated tools.

Edited by Audley, 27 November 2019 - 09:29 PM.

[Magickingdom]

Boss and Loot wreck my load order in seconds. No body knows my game like I do. No body knows the mods I use like I do. I have been modding my games since TES4 and Dragon Age:Origins. Very very few game installs are alike. Manual load ordering is an absolute must. If you can't figure out why, you are not qualified to create a good mod manager. I feel very strongly about it because I've tried Loot a few times, then had to spend hours getting my game to run again. The old adage, "one size fits all fits none" applies here. Auto load ordering in vortex puts it on my permanent not to do list.
Its called shootin strait, rookie

Edited by Magickingdom, 27 November 2019 - 10:22 PM.

[Didaskos]

In response to post #75219628.

Spoiler

Magickingdom wrote: Boss and Loot wreck my load order in seconds. No body knows my game like I do. No body knows the mods I use like I do. I have been modding my games since TES4 and Dragon Age:Origins. Very very few game installs are alike. Manual load ordering is an absolute must. If you can't figure out why, you are not qualified to create a good mod manager. I feel very strongly about it because I've tried Loot a few times, then had to spend hours getting my game to run again. The old adage, "one size fits all fits none" applies here. Auto load ordering in vortex puts it on my permanent not to do list.
Its called shootin strait, rookie

Install of manually doing it, you can just set rules yourself for what mods should load after and before others. It's really very simple, and allows you to use auto-sorting with LOOT without wrecking anything. The fact you've been modding since TES4 probably indicates more the fact that you're used to doing things only in one way, and don't like change, even if there's actually no benefit to the old way of doing things.