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Putting things last in load order is a nightmare. Goddamnit!

vortex load order hell

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#11
ThatHomelesGuy

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@1ae0bfb8

First of all, did you decide to be a d***head when you woke up this morning or were just born a d***head?

 

Second of all read what people have written before replying because when you don't you look kike a dumbfuck.

 

I solved the issue by doing as you suggested and thanked you for the help, I even marked your reply as the best answer.

I also didn't set up 300 rules but it seemed to me at the time that I was expected to set up a rediculous number of rules because there is no obvious way to solve the very real issue of not being able to do something as simple as manually change your load order in what I presumed was the most stable/non-obsolete mod manager available. Turns out it's pretty bad at what it's supposed to do.



#12
ThatHomelesGuy

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Clearly vortex can't be trusted to sort the plugins reliably on its own so no I won't let it sort my plugins for me. I am content to make adjustments myself if needed.

 

Clearly you and Vortex will never be friends for the simple reason that Vortex doesn't work in the way you want it to.  NMM and MO2 are readily available, as has already been suggested, and will more readily accommodate your modding style. 

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit.

Does nobody read past their ego's on here?

I already said I was going to check the alternatives suggested out.

I had tried to use MO before downloading vortex but it didn't work. Until today I did not know there was a version that wasn't obsolete and when I went looking for Nexus mod manager I was directed by Nexus to Vortex. In fact when you search for NMM the page that comes up for it provides a download link for Vortex not NMM.



#13
HadToRegister

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@ThatHomelesGuy

 

 

Clearly vortex can't be trusted to sort the plugins reliably on its own so no I won't let it sort my plugins for me. I am content to make adjustments myself if needed.

 

Clearly you and Vortex will never be friends for the simple reason that Vortex doesn't work in the way you want it to.  NMM and MO2 are readily available, as has already been suggested, and will more readily accommodate your modding style. 

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit.

Does nobody read past their ego's on here?

I already said I was going to check the alternatives suggested out.

I had tried to use MO before downloading vortex but it didn't work. Until today I did not know there was a version that wasn't obsolete and when I went looking for Nexus mod manager I was directed by Nexus to Vortex. In fact when you search for NMM the page that comes up for it provides a download link for Vortex not NMM.

 

 

It has NOTHING to do with Egos, and everything to do with dealing with Hundreds of people who claim that "The nexus FORCED Vortex on US" or  "NMM isn't available for download anymore"

 

You should've scrolled a little farther


NMM-Vortex.jpg



#14
ThatHomelesGuy

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@ThatHomelesGuy

 

 

Clearly vortex can't be trusted to sort the plugins reliably on its own so no I won't let it sort my plugins for me. I am content to make adjustments myself if needed.

 

Clearly you and Vortex will never be friends for the simple reason that Vortex doesn't work in the way you want it to.  NMM and MO2 are readily available, as has already been suggested, and will more readily accommodate your modding style. 

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit.

Does nobody read past their ego's on here?

I already said I was going to check the alternatives suggested out.

I had tried to use MO before downloading vortex but it didn't work. Until today I did not know there was a version that wasn't obsolete and when I went looking for Nexus mod manager I was directed by Nexus to Vortex. In fact when you search for NMM the page that comes up for it provides a download link for Vortex not NMM.

 

 

It has NOTHING to do with Egos, and everything to do with dealing with Hundreds of people who claim that "The nexus FORCED Vortex on US" or  "NMM isn't available for download anymore"

 

You should've scrolled a little farther


NMM-Vortex.jpg

 

While I'm glad NMM is still there I have to say that's dodgy website DL ad link levels of dirty. Especially when the link you click on Google is headed "Nexus Mod Manager". It really makes an effort to make it look like NMM is not hosted or available anymore because it's been entirely replaced by Vortex on Nexus when you land on the page. Especially when you scroll down from the header DL link and are presented with a footer DL link for vortex above the footer banner. Since coming back to Nexus I've noticed the site using a lot more social engineering techiques to steer its users about the site. I miss the filefront days sometimes.

 

Thanks for the Link.


Edited by ThatHomelesGuy, 11 January 2020 - 02:28 AM.


#15
ThatHomelesGuy

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@1ae0bfb8

First of all, did you decide to be a d***head when you woke up this morning or were just born a d***head?

 

Second of all read what people have written before replying because when you don't you look kike a dumbfuck.

 

I solved the issue by doing as you suggested and thanked you for the help, I even marked your reply as the best answer.

I also didn't set up 300 rules but it seemed to me at the time that I was expected to set up a rediculous number of rules because there is no obvious way to solve the very real issue of not being able to do something as simple as manually change your load order in what I presumed was the most stable/non-obsolete mod manager available. Turns out it's pretty bad at what it's supposed to do.

Why so butt-hurt friend? Am I to respect you for your 15 years of modding or something?

 

You posted up quite the diatribe which was fixed in about 10 seconds, if you'd stopped trying to make Vortex into NMM. It's a common rookie mistake though, and I'm glad you got there in the end.

 

Vortex is ace if you take the time to learn what it does and how it does it. Takes all the effort out of sorting plugins, let's LOOT do all the work  and then gives you the extra, final say with group and mod  manipulation if you're not happy that something is in the wrong place.

 

No need for thanks, although I'd question the sincerity given your later posts. Remember, this isn't a forum exclusively for you, other people may be having the same issue as you, hence the reply of move the group - don't make 300-something individual rules. Look at the bigger picture my friend. As a modder of 15 years experience, you should know that other people may also struggle moving files from one directory to another.

 

First of all, get off the modding experience thing. That's just the d***head attitude I'm on about and realy speaks to your own ego that you think it's about clout. I stated as much to point out that I do not need vortex to cook my meals for me, and that while it's nice to have a hand in the kitchen sometimes I prefer to cook my meals my way or add ingredients in the order I wish since I've been cooking meals FOR MYSELF for a very long time before vortex was arround to "help" (even if I undercook something from time to time that is on me and I am content with that).

I do not have a problem with Vortex doing things automagically for the average user. It's great and makes things easier and makes mods more accessable to more people, to a point. But rules and groups are not a way to fine tune anything. At best they are a suggestion you can make to Vortex and take extra steps over say for example, drag and dropping your load order directly. Leaving the user making educated guesses at how Vortex will recieve those suggestions and how it will make an educated guess on your needs based on those suggestions. And as a programmer myself I can tell you it is folly to rely on a piece of software to not make mistakes and even more so to believe it can go without manual intervention at some level. Your faith in Vortex is far greater than it's ability to perform. Remember people make mistakes and people build software, when you expect software to make dynamic decisions it is not infallable as the programmers expectations and instructions are abstracted to the sofware and become to a point unpredictable especially to the end user who is expected to have absolutelly no idea how the processs under the hood works. This is something quite important to know and is something that is taught in software engineering degrees. The fact that Vortex expedites control over certain process to an algorythm without allowing the user any direct control is a fair criticism and one that seems to trigger the ego of those like yourself who cannot accept that criticism can be made of something they have too much faith in. Very similar to religious dogma if you ask me. 

 

Other MM in the past have removed the barrier of manual installs to folders without sacrificing the users ability to easily make fine adjustments. Vortex and it's developers seem to operate under the assumption that a mallet can be used to drive a screw so they give the user a mallet. Doesn't matter how smart or usefull that mallet may be it cannot tighten a screw precisely when precission is needed. And when it does it may can take much more time, effort and trial and error on the users part to achieve the precission they desire. Something that can be done easily with manual load ordering is now a multistep process in Vortex.

And I don't want Vortex to be NMM. I want the ease of access of Vortex (such as magnet linking and quick load ordering) with the ability to make manual adjustments easily like every other MM out there that has gone before.

 

But anyway since you are holding on to even the already explained 300 rules thing I think this will go over your ego and all the points I make will be simply missed by you.



#16
HadToRegister

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And I don't want Vortex to be NMM. I want the ease of access of Vortex (such as magnet linking and quick load ordering) with the ability to make manual adjustments easily like every other MM out there that has gone before.

 

 

 

As I said, I have 311 mods for skyrim, of those 311, I have made 15 actual rules to sort ESPS the way I need them.
Most are patches, and it was extremely easy to do.
I opened the Manage Rules window in PLUGINS, started entering the name of the plugin I wanted to LOAD AFTER another Plugin (I load some things AFTER the bashed patch) then start typing in BASH in the right hand side, choose that, pick Load AFTER and hit APPLY.
Then I click SORT and done.

So, you of 311 plugins I only NEEDED to make 15 rules and a couple of those were just to change the order of a few magic plugins, so the spells that I wanted a spell mod to overwrite were overwritten.

There is nothing at all difficult with using Vortex and making sorting rules, the difficulty comes when you start assigning plugins arbitrarily to groups, then also try and make a sorting rule that violates the GROUP Sorting Rule, then you end up with Cyclic Rules.

Vortex saved me from having to manually muck about with the other 296 plugins that I DIDN'T HAVE TO MANUALLY SORT.

I use the story all the time, but now when I install with Vortex I make a game out of it.
I'll download all of the mods I'm going to use, and then install them one after another ignoring any and all conflicts and warnings.

Then, when I'm finished Installing, I go to the MOD Tab, and the Manage Rules screen and set all of the sorting rules there, according to the Mod Pages Description Page (Install this mod AFTER Installing that other mod so this mod's textures overwrites the Other Mods textures) so I pick LOAD AFTER.

Once I'm done with that, I load up my load order in Xedit, and edit any ESPS (I usually have 98% of my ESPS edited with scripts) for Name Tagging etc (Saves from having a billion VIS Naming ESPS everywhere.)

 



#17
1ae0bfb8

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@1ae0bfb8

First of all, did you decide to be a d***head when you woke up this morning or were just born a d***head?

 

Second of all read what people have written before replying because when you don't you look kike a dumbfuck.

 

I solved the issue by doing as you suggested and thanked you for the help, I even marked your reply as the best answer.

I also didn't set up 300 rules but it seemed to me at the time that I was expected to set up a rediculous number of rules because there is no obvious way to solve the very real issue of not being able to do something as simple as manually change your load order in what I presumed was the most stable/non-obsolete mod manager available. Turns out it's pretty bad at what it's supposed to do.

Why so butt-hurt friend? Am I to respect you for your 15 years of modding or something?

 

You posted up quite the diatribe which was fixed in about 10 seconds, if you'd stopped trying to make Vortex into NMM. It's a common rookie mistake though, and I'm glad you got there in the end.

 

Vortex is ace if you take the time to learn what it does and how it does it. Takes all the effort out of sorting plugins, let's LOOT do all the work  and then gives you the extra, final say with group and mod  manipulation if you're not happy that something is in the wrong place.

 

No need for thanks, although I'd question the sincerity given your later posts. Remember, this isn't a forum exclusively for you, other people may be having the same issue as you, hence the reply of move the group - don't make 300-something individual rules. Look at the bigger picture my friend. As a modder of 15 years experience, you should know that other people may also struggle moving files from one directory to another.

 

First of all, get off the modding experience thing. That's just the d***head attitude I'm on about and realy speaks to your own ego that you think it's about clout. I stated as much to point out that I do not need vortex to cook my meals for me, and that while it's nice to have a hand in the kitchen sometimes I prefer to cook my meals my way or add ingredients in the order I wish since I've been cooking meals FOR MYSELF for a very long time before vortex was arround to "help" (even if I undercook something from time to time that is on me and I am content with that).

I do not have a problem with Vortex doing things automagically for the average user. It's great and makes things easier and makes mods more accessable to more people, to a point. But rules and groups are not a way to fine tune anything. At best they are a suggestion you can make to Vortex and take extra steps over say for example, drag and dropping your load order directly. Leaving the user making educated guesses at how Vortex will recieve those suggestions and how it will make an educated guess on your needs based on those suggestions. And as a programmer myself I can tell you it is folly to rely on a piece of software to not make mistakes and even more so to believe it can go without manual intervention at some level. Your faith in Vortex is far greater than it's ability to perform. Remember people make mistakes and people build software, when you expect software to make dynamic decisions it is not infallable as the programmers expectations and instructions are abstracted to the sofware and become to a point unpredictable especially to the end user who is expected to have absolutelly no idea how the processs under the hood works. This is something quite important to know and is something that is taught in software engineering degrees. The fact that Vortex expedites control over certain process to an algorythm without allowing the user any direct control is a fair criticism and one that seems to trigger the ego of those like yourself who cannot accept that criticism can be made of something they have too much faith in. Very similar to religious dogma if you ask me. 

 

Other MM in the past have removed the barrier of manual installs to folders without sacrificing the users ability to easily make fine adjustments. Vortex and it's developers seem to operate under the assumption that a mallet can be used to drive a screw so they give the user a mallet. Doesn't matter how smart or usefull that mallet may be it cannot tighten a screw precisely when precission is needed. And when it does it may can take much more time, effort and trial and error on the users part to achieve the precission they desire. Something that can be done easily with manual load ordering is now a multistep process in Vortex.

And I don't want Vortex to be NMM. I want the ease of access of Vortex (such as magnet linking and quick load ordering) with the ability to make manual adjustments easily like every other MM out there that has gone before.

 

But anyway since you are holding on to even the already explained 300 rules thing I think this will go over your ego and all the points I make will be simply missed by you.

 

why still so butt-hurt friend?

 

No ego here, no points missed. I gave you the solution to your problem in one post. Point for my follow up is, as i said, other people who may not have 15 years of modding experience may have the same issue as you had and may try to use vortex in some ass-backwards way and get frustrated because they missed how easy it is.

 

My message is, relax, it's all good, you figured out the rookie mistake and corrected it. No-one knows everything, and sometimes a helping hand is all you need to go on down the path to modding bliss. Be happy. Think of everything after the solution is for someone else who isn't you. Can you do that? Good lad.

 

Much love and happy modding my friend. xox.



#18
rmm200

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My father had a saying: Once the horse is dead, there is no point to beating it more. Applies here.



#19
Rattledagger

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I do not have a problem with Vortex doing things automagically for the average user. It's great and makes things easier and makes mods more accessable to more people, to a point. But rules and groups are not a way to fine tune anything.

 

 

Maybe I've just been really lucky, or maybe it's due to me still modding and playing original Skyrim, but after putting less than 10 plugins into another gorup 6+ months ago I've not had to do anything else with sorting plugins. So at least in my experience groups is enough to fine-tune my plugin load order.

 

As for doing things manually, let's say you've got plugin A, B and C and you drag-and-drop C before B. This can mean:

1: Absolutely nothing, in case A, B and C is independent of each others.

2: C is just a short stop on further drag-and-drop before A.

3: C must load before B, but location of A is irrelevant.

4: C must load after A, but location of B is irrelevant.

5: B must load after A, but location of C is irrelevant.

6: Plugins must load in exact order A -> C -> B.

 

Now if overlooks 1 and 2, where's 4 different possibilities. If you're never ever going to do any more changes to the plugin load order, it doesn't matter if you mean 3, 4, 5 or 6.

 

If you on the other hand sometime in the future add plugin D and where's a LOOT rule that says "load A after D", it's important to know if you meant 3, 4, 5 or 6. Only if you meant 3 are you guaranteed the new rule won't screw-up your manual plugin load order. For 4, 5 or 6 on the other hand the rule can be enough of breaking your manual sorting.

 

This means, your choices are:

a: After the first time you manually sort a plugin, you only uses manual sorting, since this will guarantee nothing screws-up your manual plugin load order.

b: Every time you've auto-sorted the plugins, you must verify and possibly repeat all the manual sorting-steps.

c: Based on you're meaning 3, 4, 5 or 6, instead of manual sorting plugins you put one or two plugins into other groups and afterwards you continue using auto-sorting of plugins + custom rules.

 

All options a, b and c can give your desired plugin load order, but personally I choose option c, since while it can take a few seconds longer for the initial setup, I don't need to repeat the manual step sometime in the future when I likely has forgotten plugin C was moved at all.



#20
AugustaCalidia

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This also applies here - "Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne efficiaris eo similis."







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: vortex, load order, hell

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