242 replies to this topic

[WhiteWolf424242]

In response to post #84545503.

Spoiler

Noctum28 wrote: Thanks for putting in the effort of editing the voiced dialog, this looks all very promising!

In regard to your offer of compatibility checking, could you have a look at "Dark Brotherhood for Good Guys" https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/61123 ? I like that it gives more background to the targets, but some quest and dialog changes might be problematic.

Problematic indeed, sadly. Not terribly gamebreaking, but there are some issues:

• The dialogue edits conflict in multiple places, but that's just what text is displayed in the player prompt. If you load that mod after mine, it's possible that some choices will be tracked incorrectly/counter-intuitively.
  
  Spoiler

  
  Let's say my mod edited a dialogue to A/B, where A is tracking towards the alternate ending, B is towards vanilla. If that mod edits the flavor of the dialogues to be misleading, and the player wants to aim for the alternate ending, they will choose B because of the overwritten prompt - my mod will still count that as a step towards the vanilla ending.
  
• Both mods edit the DB07 (Cure for Madness) quest. However, my edit is just a very minor added detail here, so if you load that mod after mine, it's just that my optional scene with the Night Mother's opinion on Cicero's attack won't play.
• The biggest problem is that both mods edit the recurring radiant contract quest. If you load that mod after mine, the "pass the contract over to the Speaker" will be kind of problematic. The dialogues won't be missing, but the quest objective pointers will be. And I'd avoid using this option anyway, just to be safe, because it manages the recurring quest from outside, which might confuse the other mod.

I guess they could tolerate each other to the limit of these issues, but I'd really suggest to avoid using them together. If you absolutely want to, then all in all I'd suggest to load that mod after mine. (Doublecheck if using LOOT, for me it guessed the other way around!) Then the worst that could happen are probably just a few mistracked dialogue options and the option to pass on contracts to your speaker will not work and shouldn't be used.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that I could ever make a patch, because that mod's author didn't publish his script sources with his mod. Lacking those, patching is not possible.

Edited by WhiteWolf424242, 29 August 2020 - 12:34 PM.

[WhiteWolf424242]

In response to post #84548158.

Spoiler

Badgeur wrote: OKI so as I had already spared Ciceria I followed through and killed Astrid, had the conversation with Big Momma and returned to the Map room, I console commanded Astrid to return her to the Game and then shot her with AFT make follower, at that point under Aft I found that Dialogue returned I asked her about her Crispy Ex and had some response, she had asked me what Big Momma said about binding the family together etc, not sure what will happen going forward but Hey it is fun finding out or breaking sumthing just thought I would shout up as it may provide an insight for a future update.

I see For the unwary comments reader: using console commands for these applications is generally not safe, and a rogue command could easily be a one-way ticket to a permanently broken saved game!
The dialogues are showing up on the console-resurrected Astrid, because I didn't put any alternate-ending-conitions on them. For Astrid, my mod supposes that if she's alive, you must be doing the alternate ending anyway.
If you want to fool the other NPC's too into believing that they are doing the alternate ending, and use their Astrid-lived dialogues, use this command too:

setstage ww42dbalternateending 10

This should theoretically create a state where you are legally doing the alternate ending, but you also have Cicero alive, and the coming quests should play accordingly. By "theoretically" I meant that I'm not taking responsibility for appearing bugs, because the mod was obviously not planned for this.
To set her to become a follower within my mod:

setstage ww42dbchangeinleadership 200

Some feedback on how she then plays together with AFT would be appreciated.

Edited by WhiteWolf424242, 29 August 2020 - 12:54 PM.

[WhiteWolf424242]

In response to post #84520363. #84526068, #84528173, #84528773, #84536133, #84537963, #84538773, #84547623 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Saxonrog wrote: Amazing mod, I've never been so excited about a mod before and I haven't even tested yet xD

I have some questions, if you don't mind: 1) Can you find a way to make the cicero not die, he is one of the best vanilla followers? 2) can you make Astrid marry a female character? 3) and the old members, can you tell me if they survived, if not, do you have plans?

Suggestion: you should consider doing some special contract missions that only the player can do, like the radiant quest, but with important targets.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: 1) Cicero's death is only a requirement for the alternate ending where Astrid lives, but you're not depriving yourself of the other features if you choose to let him live. Meaning, you still get all the dialogue edits, after the ending you can still nominate a Speaker (you can actually try asking Cicero for it, just saying ), who does the same things (recruitment and Dark Brotherhood Forever quest management), and you still get to play the Artifacts of Sithis quest.

2) I originally discarded female-character marriage at scratch phase, because Astrid didn't have easily fitting dialogues for it (in her assets, she does say "husband" a lot, but never "wife"), so it didn't make it into v1.0. In a later version, I can probably change this by editing together some dialogues that will do the job, but this will take time. I can't promise anything.

3) They are not saved by this mod, and I don't plan to include this as a direct feature here, see the already considered ideas on the front page. What I do plan to do however, is to make a compatibility patch with Save the Dark Brotherhood - thereby everyone can decide and do what they want, if you want them saved, you will be able to use it together with my mod, getting both worlds. (Not yet though, you will have to wait for the patch, that mod is currently incompatible!)

I'll consider your suggestion, but it's my general opinion that there are already enough radiant quests in Skyrim, so if I'm adding more quests, then those should be unique with an actual governing story, not simple radiant ones.

Joistikas wrote: It would be nice if we could save Cicero but not Veezara for example but Astrid would live. I use a Cicero appearance and voice replacer and she's too cute not to spare :'(

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: The case where both Cicero and Astrid live would be very very hard to resolve story-wise. They are practically arch-enemies. I just cannot imagine a scenario where these two characters would reconcile, even if commanded by the Listener. Also, Astrid would realize that you lied to her, and I fail to see how she could ever forgive you that with her personality. I find that these two characters simply cannot be made to work together in the same Sanctuary.
Just ignoring the whole problem and not acknowledging the meeting of the two characters by anything in-game is also out of the question for me.
Confronting the player with an A/B choice of who stays and who leaves the DB forever out of spite, is not a very nice solution either.
So creating this option properly still needs more planning and forethought. I'm open to plausible ideas and solutions, but currently I don't see how it could work.

Saxonrog wrote: Marry Astrid being a female PC: You could solve the problem of dialogue using femalesultry voice to fill the gaps.

Solutions for Cicero/Astrid conflict:
1)Switch Astrid for Veezara in the scenario in which Cicero does not die. In thats storyline would be basically the same as the original, Astrid would still be the traitor, and Cicero would be a "necessary evil" for the DB, and Veezara would be okay with this.
2) Player enters the sanctuary and sees the scene: Cicero, Nazir and Babbete accusing Astrid of betrayng DB, and she justifying herself and being responsible for the 'Death Incarnate' attack, she would feel guilty enough and would justify why she is no longer a leader of the dark brotherhood, after all she is responsible for killing almost everyone. In this scenario she could not marry again, because Cicero is alive and she would not trust the player ever again, but would remain in the brotherhood because the guilt and her dead husband and her "family".

About my suggestion: The new contracts could be something that would force the player's decision to kill well-known, famous and important NPCs, such as stormcloaks / imperials generals, jarls and housecarls, nazeem, etc.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: It can be solved with her own dialogue too, she does say "dear" quite often, it's just that the editing work will take quite some time.

I'm not sure I follow the Astrid/Cicero suggestion. What do you mean switch Astrid and Veezara? Make it so that Cicero attacks Veezara in his outburst, and its Astrid who gets injured in stopping him, before he flees? That's just an insane amount of dialogues to edit throughout the entire DB07, so... no.
And I just can't imagine the scene where Astrid is the traitor, but doesn't sacrifice herself. The image of her standing there with Nazir and Babette accusing her... just doesn't feel right to me.
I'm more inclined to the approach of Cicero somehow redeeming himself in the eyes of Astrid. After all, not much is known about his activity between when you leave him in the Dawnstar Sanctuary at the end of DB07, and his reappearance at the end. If this space could be filled up with an action that highlights Cicero, then its plausible that Astrid with the changes in the alternate ending could coexist with him. (She certainly won't forget and forgive, but at least tolerate him, that's good enough). "Cicero heroically saving Astrid's life and thus redeeming his past outburst" is very cliché, so definitely not directly that, but something along these lines maybe... it still needs a lot of brainstorming, but I'm willing to explore this direction.

Nazeem, hmm, good one Yeah, something like that sounds reasonable.

Saxonrog wrote: No exactly, in the first solution Astrid will die like vanilla storyline, but Veezara survive the penitus oculatus attack, but only if the player spare Cicero's life.

About Cicero and Astrid: the highlight of the cicero could be the death of commander Maro, he is the one who send the imperials attack the sanctuary, and he is an optional target of the quest "Hail Sithis!". So he basically helped the player to kill the emperor and avenged the brotherhood killing the commander.

Badgeur wrote: ya Got that Too so kinda hard to kill her especially in her tight Jesters out fit

No exactly, in the first solution Astrid will die like vanilla storyline, but Veezara survive the penitus oculatus attack, but only if the player spare Cicero's life.

I see. No, I don't want to go down this path with such mixes. Save the DB will be patched out so that everyone can decide for themselves what to do with Veezara (and the others) separately, and we'll find a solution to remove the Cicero-requirement from the alternate ending and solve the Astrid and Cicero lived too scenario. I'm not a fan of hard-required choices either, it only exists because of previously described limitations, that's why I'm set on trying to remove it.

About Cicero and Astrid: the highlight of the cicero could be the death of commander Maro, he is the one who send the imperials attack the sanctuary, and he is an optional target of the quest "Hail Sithis!". So he basically helped the player to kill the emperor and avenged the brotherhood killing the commander.

I was thinking about detaching the discovering of Maro's location from Amaund Motierre, and instead giving this task to Cicero, while also involving Astrid into it somehow. Something like that, yes.

ya Got that Too so kinda hard to kill her especially in her tight Jesters out fit

"Her" - I guess we're talking about a female Cicero mod here, right? Yeah, I think I understand the frustration...

[Badgeur]

In response to post #84548158. #84560763 is also a reply to the same post.

Spoiler

Badgeur wrote: OKI so as I had already spared Ciceria I followed through and killed Astrid, had the conversation with Big Momma and returned to the Map room, I console commanded Astrid to return her to the Game and then shot her with AFT make follower, at that point under Aft I found that Dialogue returned I asked her about her Crispy Ex and had some response, she had asked me what Big Momma said about binding the family together etc, not sure what will happen going forward but Hey it is fun finding out or breaking sumthing just thought I would shout up as it may provide an insight for a future update.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: I see For the unwary comments reader: using console commands for these applications is generally not safe, and a rogue command could easily be a one-way ticket to a permanently broken saved game!
The dialogues are showing up on the console-resurrected Astrid, because I didn't put any alternate-ending-conitions on them. For Astrid, my mod supposes that if she's alive, you must be doing the alternate ending anyway.
If you want to fool the other NPC's too into believing that they are doing the alternate ending, and use their Astrid-lived dialogues, use this command too:

setstage ww42dbalternateending 10

This should theoretically create a state where you are legally doing the alternate ending, but you also have Cicero alive, and the coming quests should play accordingly. By "theoretically" I meant that I'm not taking responsibility for appearing bugs, because the mod was obviously not planned for this.
To set her to become a follower within my mod:

setstage ww42dbchangeinleadership 200

Some feedback on how she then plays together with AFT would be appreciated.

very true it is always risky to do it with the console and the results can have unforeseen repercussions, I merely found that as this way has Allowed me to continue testing this theory and map any issues but thank you for the console command thats one that I wasn't aware of , the Mod is really good and would recommend it to anyone, But for now follow the directions on the Mod page is your best option With AFT I have progressed through to the Artifact quest, to be honest she has worked okay with the AFT forced recruit but always a risk because it can interfere with her intended progression but no found conflicts so far.

Edited by Badgeur, 29 August 2020 - 04:01 PM.

[WhiteWolf424242]

In response to post #84548158. #84560763, #84566033 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Badgeur wrote: OKI :) so as I had already spared Ciceria I followed through and killed Astrid, had the conversation with Big Momma and returned to the Map room, I console commanded Astrid to return her to the Game and then shot her with AFT make follower, at that point under Aft I found that Dialogue returned I asked her about her Crispy Ex and had some response, she had asked me what Big Momma said about binding the family together etc, not sure what will happen going forward but Hey it is fun finding out or breaking sumthing :) just thought I would shout up as it may provide an insight for a future update.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: I see :D For the unwary comments reader: using console commands for these applications is generally not safe, and a rogue command could easily be a one-way ticket to a permanently broken saved game!
The dialogues are showing up on the console-resurrected Astrid, because I didn't put any alternate-ending-conitions on them. For Astrid, my mod supposes that if she's alive, you must be doing the alternate ending anyway.
If you want to fool the other NPC's too into believing that they are doing the alternate ending, and use their Astrid-lived dialogues, use this command too:

setstage ww42dbalternateending 10

This should theoretically create a state where you are legally doing the alternate ending, but you also have Cicero alive, and the coming quests should play accordingly. By "theoretically" I meant that I'm not taking responsibility for appearing bugs, because the mod was obviously not planned for this.
To set her to become a follower within my mod:

setstage ww42dbchangeinleadership 200

Some feedback on how she then plays together with AFT would be appreciated.

Badgeur wrote: very true it is always risky to do it with the console and the results can have unforeseen repercussions, I merely found that as this way has Allowed me to continue testing this theory and map any issues but thank you for the console command thats one that I wasn't aware of :) , the Mod is really good and would recommend it to anyone, But for now follow the directions on the Mod page is your best option :) With AFT I have progressed through to the Artifact quest, to be honest she has worked okay with the AFT forced recruit but always a risk because it can interfere with her intended progression but no found conflicts so far.

Hmm, I guess that's good to hear. Have you recruited her as a follower from my mod as well after the second console command I showed you (in game the "I need your help, Astrid." dialouge option), or just from AFT?

[Badgeur]

if you have not killed cicero
complete the quest up to the point that you kill Astrid as Normal, as recommended use setstage ww42dbchangeinleadership 200.
only after you have spoken to Nazir about dawnstar and have the quest update to speak with Motierre.
(use at own risk, create save)
Console command Astrid in game, I used AFT make follower ONLY to equip her with what I wanted her to have, then dismissed her.
I spoke to her after my follower has left your service, and recruited her as normal and the game is running very okay, all dialogue etc.
I would say only use a follower system to equip her and then do not use it, the less you use it the more she will run as intended.

This worked for me after Many hours of trying this and that, Thank you to WhiteWolf424242 for the console command, and for the MOD really nice improvement to the DB, please endorse any Mods you download and use, trust me this stuff is hard

[slick4hire]

Dammit if I'm not at level 50 on a current DB playthrough...because this sounds absolutely amazing.

Tracked for my next DB toon.

[Noctum28]

In response to post #84545503. #84560308 is also a reply to the same post.

Spoiler

Noctum28 wrote: Thanks for putting in the effort of editing the voiced dialog, this looks all very promising!

In regard to your offer of compatibility checking, could you have a look at "Dark Brotherhood for Good Guys" https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/61123 ? I like that it gives more background to the targets, but some quest and dialog changes might be problematic.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: Problematic indeed, sadly. Not terribly gamebreaking, but there are some issues:

• The dialogue edits conflict in multiple places, but that's just what text is displayed in the player prompt. If you load that mod after mine, it's possible that some choices will be tracked incorrectly/counter-intuitively.
  
  Spoiler

  
  Let's say my mod edited a dialogue to A/B, where A is tracking towards the alternate ending, B is towards vanilla. If that mod edits the flavor of the dialogues to be misleading, and the player wants to aim for the alternate ending, they will choose B because of the overwritten prompt - my mod will still count that as a step towards the vanilla ending.
  
• Both mods edit the DB07 (Cure for Madness) quest. However, my edit is just a very minor added detail here, so if you load that mod after mine, it's just that my optional scene with the Night Mother's opinion on Cicero's attack won't play.
• The biggest problem is that both mods edit the recurring radiant contract quest. If you load that mod after mine, the "pass the contract over to the Speaker" will be kind of problematic. The dialogues won't be missing, but the quest objective pointers will be. And I'd avoid using this option anyway, just to be safe, because it manages the recurring quest from outside, which might confuse the other mod.

I guess they could tolerate each other to the limit of these issues, but I'd really suggest to avoid using them together. If you absolutely want to, then all in all I'd suggest to load that mod after mine. (Doublecheck if using LOOT, for me it guessed the other way around!) Then the worst that could happen are probably just a few mistracked dialogue options and the option to pass on contracts to your speaker will not work and shouldn't be used.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that I could ever make a patch, because that mod's author didn't publish his script sources with his mod. Lacking those, patching is not possible.

It's unfortunate that the author of "Dark Brotherhood for Good Guys" hasn't been around since this April. Anyway, getting the sources is still possible via de-compilation:
Champollion a PEX to Papyrus decompiler https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/35307
Champollion Graphical User Interface https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/82367

Even if you might not make a patch, Champollion might still prove useful to you in the future.

Edited by Noctum28, 29 August 2020 - 08:37 PM.

[WhiteWolf424242]

In response to post #84545503. #84560308, #84574418 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Noctum28 wrote: Thanks for putting in the effort of editing the voiced dialog, this looks all very promising!

In regard to your offer of compatibility checking, could you have a look at "Dark Brotherhood for Good Guys" https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/61123 ? I like that it gives more background to the targets, but some quest and dialog changes might be problematic.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: Problematic indeed, sadly. Not terribly gamebreaking, but there are some issues:

• The dialogue edits conflict in multiple places, but that's just what text is displayed in the player prompt. If you load that mod after mine, it's possible that some choices will be tracked incorrectly/counter-intuitively.
  
  Spoiler

  
  Let's say my mod edited a dialogue to A/B, where A is tracking towards the alternate ending, B is towards vanilla. If that mod edits the flavor of the dialogues to be misleading, and the player wants to aim for the alternate ending, they will choose B because of the overwritten prompt - my mod will still count that as a step towards the vanilla ending.
  
• Both mods edit the DB07 (Cure for Madness) quest. However, my edit is just a very minor added detail here, so if you load that mod after mine, it's just that my optional scene with the Night Mother's opinion on Cicero's attack won't play.
• The biggest problem is that both mods edit the recurring radiant contract quest. If you load that mod after mine, the "pass the contract over to the Speaker" will be kind of problematic. The dialogues won't be missing, but the quest objective pointers will be. And I'd avoid using this option anyway, just to be safe, because it manages the recurring quest from outside, which might confuse the other mod.

I guess they could tolerate each other to the limit of these issues, but I'd really suggest to avoid using them together. If you absolutely want to, then all in all I'd suggest to load that mod after mine. (Doublecheck if using LOOT, for me it guessed the other way around!) Then the worst that could happen are probably just a few mistracked dialogue options and the option to pass on contracts to your speaker will not work and shouldn't be used.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that I could ever make a patch, because that mod's author didn't publish his script sources with his mod. Lacking those, patching is not possible.

Noctum28 wrote: It's unfortunate that the author of "Dark Brotherhood for Good Guys" hasn't been around since this April. Anyway, getting the sources is still possible via de-compilation:
Champollion a PEX to Papyrus decompiler https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/35307
Champollion Graphical User Interface https://www.nexusmod...yrim/mods/82367

Even if you might not make a patch, Champollion might still prove useful to you in the future.

Oh, that's very nice, thanks
We'll see about actually making the patch, but probably not in the very near future, since it's not game-breakingly incompatible, and patching Save the DB first has a higher priority on my list.

In response to post #84520363. #84526068, #84528173, #84528773, #84536133, #84537963, #84538773, #84547623, #84561023 are all replies on the same post.

Spoiler

Saxonrog wrote: Amazing mod, I've never been so excited about a mod before and I haven't even tested yet xD

I have some questions, if you don't mind: 1) Can you find a way to make the cicero not die, he is one of the best vanilla followers? 2) can you make Astrid marry a female character? 3) and the old members, can you tell me if they survived, if not, do you have plans?

Suggestion: you should consider doing some special contract missions that only the player can do, like the radiant quest, but with important targets.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: 1) Cicero's death is only a requirement for the alternate ending where Astrid lives, but you're not depriving yourself of the other features if you choose to let him live. Meaning, you still get all the dialogue edits, after the ending you can still nominate a Speaker (you can actually try asking Cicero for it, just saying ), who does the same things (recruitment and Dark Brotherhood Forever quest management), and you still get to play the Artifacts of Sithis quest.

2) I originally discarded female-character marriage at scratch phase, because Astrid didn't have easily fitting dialogues for it (in her assets, she does say "husband" a lot, but never "wife"), so it didn't make it into v1.0. In a later version, I can probably change this by editing together some dialogues that will do the job, but this will take time. I can't promise anything.

3) They are not saved by this mod, and I don't plan to include this as a direct feature here, see the already considered ideas on the front page. What I do plan to do however, is to make a compatibility patch with Save the Dark Brotherhood - thereby everyone can decide and do what they want, if you want them saved, you will be able to use it together with my mod, getting both worlds. (Not yet though, you will have to wait for the patch, that mod is currently incompatible!)

I'll consider your suggestion, but it's my general opinion that there are already enough radiant quests in Skyrim, so if I'm adding more quests, then those should be unique with an actual governing story, not simple radiant ones.

Joistikas wrote: It would be nice if we could save Cicero but not Veezara for example but Astrid would live. I use a Cicero appearance and voice replacer and she's too cute not to spare :'(

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: The case where both Cicero and Astrid live would be very very hard to resolve story-wise. They are practically arch-enemies. I just cannot imagine a scenario where these two characters would reconcile, even if commanded by the Listener. Also, Astrid would realize that you lied to her, and I fail to see how she could ever forgive you that with her personality. I find that these two characters simply cannot be made to work together in the same Sanctuary.
Just ignoring the whole problem and not acknowledging the meeting of the two characters by anything in-game is also out of the question for me.
Confronting the player with an A/B choice of who stays and who leaves the DB forever out of spite, is not a very nice solution either.
So creating this option properly still needs more planning and forethought. I'm open to plausible ideas and solutions, but currently I don't see how it could work.

Saxonrog wrote: Marry Astrid being a female PC: You could solve the problem of dialogue using femalesultry voice to fill the gaps.

Solutions for Cicero/Astrid conflict:
1)Switch Astrid for Veezara in the scenario in which Cicero does not die. In thats storyline would be basically the same as the original, Astrid would still be the traitor, and Cicero would be a "necessary evil" for the DB, and Veezara would be okay with this.
2) Player enters the sanctuary and sees the scene: Cicero, Nazir and Babbete accusing Astrid of betrayng DB, and she justifying herself and being responsible for the 'Death Incarnate' attack, she would feel guilty enough and would justify why she is no longer a leader of the dark brotherhood, after all she is responsible for killing almost everyone. In this scenario she could not marry again, because Cicero is alive and she would not trust the player ever again, but would remain in the brotherhood because the guilt and her dead husband and her "family".

About my suggestion: The new contracts could be something that would force the player's decision to kill well-known, famous and important NPCs, such as stormcloaks / imperials generals, jarls and housecarls, nazeem, etc.

WhiteWolf424242 wrote: It can be solved with her own dialogue too, she does say "dear" quite often, it's just that the editing work will take quite some time.

I'm not sure I follow the Astrid/Cicero suggestion. What do you mean switch Astrid and Veezara? Make it so that Cicero attacks Veezara in his outburst, and its Astrid who gets injured in stopping him, before he flees? That's just an insane amount of dialogues to edit throughout the entire DB07, so... no.
And I just can't imagine the scene where Astrid is the traitor, but doesn't sacrifice herself. The image of her standing there with Nazir and Babette accusing her... just doesn't feel right to me.
I'm more inclined to the approach of Cicero somehow redeeming himself in the eyes of Astrid. After all, not much is known about his activity between when you leave him in the Dawnstar Sanctuary at the end of DB07, and his reappearance at the end. If this space could be filled up with an action that highlights Cicero, then its plausible that Astrid with the changes in the alternate ending could coexist with him. (She certainly won't forget and forgive, but at least tolerate him, that's good enough). "Cicero heroically saving Astrid's life and thus redeeming his past outburst" is very cliché, so definitely not directly that, but something along these lines maybe... it still needs a lot of brainstorming, but I'm willing to explore this direction.

Nazeem, hmm, good one Yeah, something like that sounds reasonable.

Saxonrog wrote: No exactly, in the first solution Astrid will die like vanilla storyline, but Veezara survive the penitus oculatus attack, but only if the player spare Cicero's life.

About Cicero and Astrid: the highlight of the cicero could be the death of commander Maro, he is the one who send the imperials attack the sanctuary, and he is an optional target of the quest "Hail Sithis!". So he basically helped the player to kill the emperor and avenged the brotherhood killing the commander.

Badgeur wrote: ya Got that Too so kinda hard to kill her especially in her tight Jesters out fit

WhiteWolf424242 wrote:

No exactly, in the first solution Astrid will die like vanilla storyline, but Veezara survive the penitus oculatus attack, but only if the player spare Cicero's life.

I see. No, I don't want to go down this path with such mixes. Save the DB will be patched out so that everyone can decide for themselves what to do with Veezara (and the others) separately, and we'll find a solution to remove the Cicero-requirement from the alternate ending and solve the Astrid and Cicero lived too scenario. I'm not a fan of hard-required choices either, it only exists because of previously described limitations, that's why I'm set on trying to remove it.

About Cicero and Astrid: the highlight of the cicero could be the death of commander Maro, he is the one who send the imperials attack the sanctuary, and he is an optional target of the quest "Hail Sithis!". So he basically helped the player to kill the emperor and avenged the brotherhood killing the commander.

I was thinking about detaching the discovering of Maro's location from Amaund Motierre, and instead giving this task to Cicero, while also involving Astrid into it somehow. Something like that, yes.

ya Got that Too so kinda hard to kill her especially in her tight Jesters out fit

"Her" - I guess we're talking about a female Cicero mod here, right? Yeah, I think I understand the frustration...

That will be great! I will wait for Save TDB patch and save Cicero version. Endorsed!