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Load Order not changing despite new rules and groups

rules groups bug load order vortex

Best Answer DirtyBlue929 , 26 October 2020 - 06:47 PM

For the record, I more or less fixed the problem myself after posting this thread, and have followed the advice above regarding the custom rules I set. Just gonna clarify the cyclic rule issue I was having - both Mod A (a weapon pack) and Mod B (a totally optional compatibility patch that changes one of Mod A's weapons to use Mod C's new ammo type) were in the same group and had no custom rules associated with them, which would logically result in no cyclic issues (Mod C was also in the same group; it was a new weapon that uses a new ammo type).

 

My experimentation showed that the issue was Mods A and B, which for some reason always triggered the "cyclical rule" error whenever they were both enabled no matter what group they were assigned to or what custom rules they were given. The error specifically said that Mod B was trying to load after Mod A, and Mod A was trying to load after Mod B - again, even when they were both in the same group with no custom rules assigned. My best guess is that they somehow have rules baked into the files themselves that are cyclical. Regardless, Mod B isn't exactly essential so I just dropped it.

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#1
DirtyBlue929

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I've got a mod in Fallout 4 that I need to load last in the load order to stop an issue with objects and scenery flickering in a certain location - this is the verified fix for the issue. It's currently #23. I set a custom rule for it to load after the item currently last in my load order, and hit "Sort now". Load order did not change; the problem mod was still #23. I then added it to a custom group set to load after all other groups, and again hit "Sort now". Still at #23.

 

Am I experiencing a bug, or is this intended and the mod will load last when I launch the game? Or am I just insane and not noticing something very obvious?

 

EDIT: Actually, one more thing - there's an unrelated mod that keeps throwing up a "not sorted due to cyclical error" message claiming that it has a cyclical rule with its compatibility patch. Neither of them have custom rules associated with them; I've just been assuming that this is something baked into the files themselves and unrelated but maybe this is part of the issue?

 

EDIT2: Yes, it turns out it was that. Removing the so-called cyclical mod (or rather, its "compatibility" patch which was really just changing a weapon to use another mod's ammo type) caused things to sort properly.


Edited by DirtyBlue929, 26 October 2020 - 03:41 AM.


#2
VulcanTourist

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That rule you tried to create is not the ideal way to accomplish what you want, even if it had worked, as it would rely upon that other plugin always being (near to) last, wouldn't it?  It's not adaptive.  Since LOOT is a part of Vortex, the ideal way to manage something that needs to load in a relative position in the load order - as opposed to simply loading after a specific plugin with no other requirements - is to assign it to a LOOT "Group".  In the Plugins tab, double-click in the Name column of the plugin that needs to be assigned; this will expose the details pane that is normally hidden (too hidden, IMHO).  In that pane you will find a Group field, which is a drop-down list from which you can choose a group.  In this instance, you'd want to choose one of the last four; I'll leave you to decide which one based on what you know of its purpose.

 

LOOT uses a "masterlist" of embedded rules that are an accumulation of what the community knows about the load order relationships of various plugins.  Those rules are applied automatically, and Vortex inherits this feature from LOOT.  That is how you wound up with cyclical rules: your manually created rule conflicted with the masterlist rule already in place.  Any plugins have have rules associated with them, whether masterlist or manually added rules, will have an orange(?) icon in the Dependencies column; you can click on those icons to see what rules exist.  You can also review all rules using the Manage Rules button.

 

Regarding the relationships of LOOT Groups, you can click the Manage Groups button and review (and change) the precedence of the groups.  I wouldn't recommend altering the existing ones, but adding new ones could be useful in certain situations.

 

Also, I quote this from another reply as it seems like it might be useful for you:

 

There's two efficient ways to create a rule, if that is indeed what you need to do, although assigning in plugin to a Group, as @HadToRegister suggested, is another way of creating a more generalized rule.

To create a specific rule, there is an icon in the Dependencies column in the Plugins tab: you can either left-click it and choose Edit from the little pop-up menu, or you can right-click-and-drag from that icon to the icon of the other plugin to which you need to create the rule.

If you choose Edit, then the icons for all the other plugins turn into checkboxes, and you can check the box of the other plugin with which you need to create the rule.  When you check another box, then it creates a Loads After rule for the first one you selected; "loads after" is the only rule direction possible with this method, so the first plugin you choose must be the one you wish to load last of the two.  If you hover over a checkbox, it will display a tooltip showing what rule will be created by checking it.  Unfortunately there is no feedback when you check a box even though a rule is created, so don't be careless.  You can actually create multiple loads-after rules all at once for that same plugin, if that ever proves necessary, by simply checking other boxes.  When you're done, click the original plugin again- the one with a check in its box.

If you choose to drag-and-drop from the first plugin to another one, the Manage Rules dialog will open with both the fields already populated and a drop-down rule selector in between them.  That selector has two choices you'll use 99% of the time: Loads After and Requires (e.g. "loads before").

The drag-and-drop method is most useful if both the plugins are visible in the same view.  The Edit-and-checkboxes method is more useful if you need to scroll the view much to locate the other plugin(s).

You could also open the Manage Rules dialog directly.  If you do that, you must populate the plugins fields at the bottom by clicking on each one and scrolling through the list of plugins until you find the correct ones, then click into the rule selector and pick the correct rule "direction".


Edited by VulcanTourist, 26 October 2020 - 04:20 AM.


#3
HadToRegister

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I've got a mod in Fallout 4 that I need to load last in the load order to stop an issue with objects and scenery flickering in a certain location - this is the verified fix for the issue. It's currently #23. I set a custom rule for it to load after the item currently last in my load order, and hit "Sort now". Load order did not change; the problem mod was still #23. I then added it to a custom group set to load after all other groups, and again hit "Sort now". Still at #23.

 

Am I experiencing a bug, or is this intended and the mod will load last when I launch the game? Or am I just insane and not noticing something very obvious?

 

EDIT: Actually, one more thing - there's an unrelated mod that keeps throwing up a "not sorted due to cyclical error" message claiming that it has a cyclical rule with its compatibility patch. Neither of them have custom rules associated with them; I've just been assuming that this is something baked into the files themselves and unrelated but maybe this is part of the issue?

 

EDIT2: Yes, it turns out it was that. Removing the so-called cyclical mod (or rather, its "compatibility" patch which was really just changing a weapon to use another mod's ammo type) caused things to sort properly.

 

 

Get rid of your custom rules you made, and instead go to the PLUGINS TAB, double click on the plugin that needs to go LAST in the load order, and in the Right Hand Panel that opens up, find the GROUP drop-down, and select DYNAMIC PATCHES

Then click SORT NOW in the top Menu in the PLUGINS TAB.

Now your ESP is at the bottom of the load order without making a ton of unnecessary rules. 

 

 

The Number #1 cause of Cyclic Rules is by using RULES and GROUPS without understanding what they do.

Groups, are another SORTING method, they are NOT Categories like in NMM, so the more Plugins you add to Groups, the more likely you're going to get Cyclic Rules.

Because Groups also sort in a certain order, so if you have Mod A that is supposed to LOAD AFTER Mod B, but you have MOD A in a Group that loads AFTER the Group that Mod B is in, then you're going to get a Cyclic Rule.



MOD A Loads AFTER Mod B

MOD A is in Group 1 that Loads BEFORE Mod B that's in Group 2

Right there is a cyclic rule. Because it can never happen, Vortex will try and put Mod A AFTER Mod B, but it can't because Mod B is in a GROUP, that Loads before Mod A.

It's a paradox.



#4
DirtyBlue929

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✓  Best Answer

For the record, I more or less fixed the problem myself after posting this thread, and have followed the advice above regarding the custom rules I set. Just gonna clarify the cyclic rule issue I was having - both Mod A (a weapon pack) and Mod B (a totally optional compatibility patch that changes one of Mod A's weapons to use Mod C's new ammo type) were in the same group and had no custom rules associated with them, which would logically result in no cyclic issues (Mod C was also in the same group; it was a new weapon that uses a new ammo type).

 

My experimentation showed that the issue was Mods A and B, which for some reason always triggered the "cyclical rule" error whenever they were both enabled no matter what group they were assigned to or what custom rules they were given. The error specifically said that Mod B was trying to load after Mod A, and Mod A was trying to load after Mod B - again, even when they were both in the same group with no custom rules assigned. My best guess is that they somehow have rules baked into the files themselves that are cyclical. Regardless, Mod B isn't exactly essential so I just dropped it.


Edited by DirtyBlue929, 26 October 2020 - 06:53 PM.


#5
VulcanTourist

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My experimentation showed that the issue was Mods A and B, which for some reason always triggered the "cyclical rule" error whenever they were both enabled no matter what group they were assigned to or what custom rules they were given. The error specifically said that Mod B was trying to load after Mod A, and Mod A was trying to load after Mod B - again, even when they were both in the same group with no custom rules assigned. My best guess is that they somehow have rules baked into the files themselves that are cyclical. Regardless, Mod B isn't exactly essential so I just dropped it.

I explained this: the (LOOT community) Masterlist has predefined rules that are automatically applied to known plugins. There might be a means to disable them, but I don't know what it is. Rules CANNOT be embedded in mod plugin files; there is no mechanism for that. I also described how you can see what rules are being applied in the Vortex Plugins tab.

 

I'm glad you got it "sorted".



#6
HadToRegister

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For the record, I more or less fixed the problem myself after posting this thread, and have followed the advice above regarding the custom rules I set. Just gonna clarify the cyclic rule issue I was having - both Mod A (a weapon pack) and Mod B (a totally optional compatibility patch that changes one of Mod A's weapons to use Mod C's new ammo type) were in the same group and had no custom rules associated with them, which would logically result in no cyclic issues (Mod C was also in the same group; it was a new weapon that uses a new ammo type).

 

My experimentation showed that the issue was Mods A and B, which for some reason always triggered the "cyclical rule" error whenever they were both enabled no matter what group they were assigned to or what custom rules they were given. The error specifically said that Mod B was trying to load after Mod A, and Mod A was trying to load after Mod B - again, even when they were both in the same group with no custom rules assigned. My best guess is that they somehow have rules baked into the files themselves that are cyclical. Regardless, Mod B isn't exactly essential so I just dropped it.

 

 

Then you should hop on the LOOT Discord and let them know that they need to update their masterlist to make that mod load after the other.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: rules, groups, bug, load order, vortex

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