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Navmeshing


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#1
Myst42

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So I made a dungeon, and I wanted to make it playable next, But I made it so big that I'm not sure "easy navmeshing" is a viable option.

 

All the tutorials I've seen show using auto generation and then cleaning the rough edges manually.

I clicked on the auto generation option and I've been waiting for 2 hours for this thing to finish, I dont think it ever will.

 

Which leaves me the only option of making it manually.

Never done it, but apparently it's all about pointing and clicking triangle after triangle.

 

First question no tutorial seems to answer: why the small triangles?

 

Are the triangles an "area" for NPCs to stand or the dots have to be close because NPCs move between the verticles?

Wouldn't it be easier for IE, square-shaped rooms with not much objects in them to have just 2 big triangles covering the entire area instead of hundreds of little triangles?


Edited by Myst42, 16 November 2020 - 01:13 AM.


#2
NexusComa2

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I've done it both ways. Large sometimes let things fall through. Small is not necessarily needed. Mid works out pretty well. Nav meshes can also have prefered paths so that is where small-mid size triangles comes into play. Helps the NPCs move around way better without walking into things all the time. Manually navemesing is the way to go. Once you get how to do it is super easy. It's just time consuming. Well worth the time however. It's also best to do the whole thing in one shot. That way you end up with one namesh reference. With custom made prefered paths added all in one. 

I just dropped down my dots around the edges and some to connect to. Done all in an organized symmetrical way. Then go back light up 3 points and Press A .. exc, exc .. till done. Easy stuff.


Edited by NexusComa2, 16 November 2020 - 02:12 AM.


#3
Myst42

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Alright thanks...

I was hoping for the auto generate tool to work and then clean up manually but I think it's utterly broken for my mod, which turned out to be a massive dungeon btw.

 

I'm still unsure how close to the edges I should be doing the pathing. Also I tied to cover up the load doors first to avoid the messages about door markers not being placed on navmesh, so I guess it's too late to "do the thing in one go" All references should be connected and in the same dungeon anyway. Hope none of that is an issue.



#4
greyday01

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Doesn't need to be close to the edges. You really only need to cover the areas you want npcs to walk on. Leaving a gap prevents npcs from bumping into walls and keeps them from getting stuck in small areas between obstacles. . Make sure the furniture markers have navmesh under them or npcs can't use them. When navmeshing around banners and fires it helps to select those items and make them invisible with the 1 key before starting to navmesh or the dots sometimes get caught on them up in the air instead of being placed on the floor. Making bushes and clutter in general invisible first also helps. Also be sure to turn off snap to grid first.



#5
NexusComa2

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It's best to do the whole thing in one shot. But not necessarily needed. You can always delete the mesh data and try again. But like I said it's not needed. Just helps load faster. The path thing is for when you have a lot of area and don't like your NPCs wandering around like they are lost or constantly getting hooked on furniture.  


Edited by NexusComa2, 16 November 2020 - 04:31 PM.


#6
Myst42

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I havent even made that much furniture or even clutter to be honest...

First I wanted to design the entire layout of the mod make it eplorablo and have the general idea. Next, was adding some enemies, but I figured I needed the navmeshes to make the AI work. Especially since the dungeon structure is a bit unorthodox... it's a nordic burial well that geeps on going down and down and corridors and stairwells connect the levels. For the moment it looks like this. But since some of if it supposed to be open I didn't want NPCs jumping down to their deaths.

 

I've covered about 1/5th of it in navmesh already I believe... Already tried some enemy placement and seems to be working well, though the internal mechanics of how ambushes work still elude me.

 

I realize it's a bit out of thread topic, but I'd also like to ask if anyone knows how do wisp mothers work. Found the warehouse cell containing draugr in coffins, spiders and even a dragon priest, but no wisp mothers, and those look like they need complex mechanics.

 

Anyway. I'll kinda have to do the navmeshing tweak twice... once to make sure the general layout works, and the second, after I clutter the place with more rubble and furniture



#7
Sovrath

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I havent even made that much furniture or even clutter to be honest...

First I wanted to design the entire layout of the mod make it eplorablo and have the general idea. Next, was adding some enemies, but I figured I needed the navmeshes to make the AI work. Especially since the dungeon structure is a bit unorthodox... it's a nordic burial well that geeps on going down and down and corridors and stairwells connect the levels. For the moment it looks like this. But since some of if it supposed to be open I didn't want NPCs jumping down to their deaths.

 

I've covered about 1/5th of it in navmesh already I believe... Already tried some enemy placement and seems to be working well, though the internal mechanics of how ambushes work still elude me.

 

I realize it's a bit out of thread topic, but I'd also like to ask if anyone knows how do wisp mothers work. Found the warehouse cell containing draugr in coffins, spiders and even a dragon priest, but no wisp mothers, and those look like they need complex mechanics.

 

Anyway. I'll kinda have to do the navmeshing tweak twice... once to make sure the general layout works, and the second, after I clutter the place with more rubble and furniture

 

There is another warehouse that has a wisp mother. I've used it several times. I think it's warehouse premades.

 

I should add, I always do navmesh by hand if I can. I've found there has been too much "cleanup" when I automatically do it.


Edited by Sovrath, 18 November 2020 - 05:55 PM.


#8
sornan

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I'd like to add that if it were me, and I really wanted to first do the auto generate of the navmesh before hand working things, I'd search out on the web other people having the same issues with either time length of the generation due to size of the dungeon or potential issues where the generation just would not complete. At least then you might find that either the time length may be potentially a number of hours depending on size, or there may be some error with the dungeon preventing the generation from completing. If it were the time, I'd just let it run for as long as needed.

 

I'm not saying that the auto generation is necessarily the best way, just saying if it was me, and I wanted a layout to start with, despite the cleanup needed, I'd try to get it to work.

 

I'm making quest content for a big Lotr world space mod, and I've found a lot of areas look like the creator just did the auto generate navmesh and moved on, surely for the sake of time and due to the scope of what he was trying to accomplish. I've had to clean things up along the way, but ironically only as per needed for the quest content to work as intended in specific areas. So in this case, if the Lotr world mod author had tried to do everything by hand, he may have never completed a number of world areas (including interiors) because of the extra time and work involved, and for my part I don't mind cleaning up areas here and there to get quest content to work while leaving the rest as is.

 

Just saying, there are pluses and minus's here. Just depends on what is needed really.

 

Don't forget to backup the .Esp often too, in my quest mod that has been in the works for about 5 months I have 143 backups currently. I backup after I make significant changes/additions, and I backup when I know I'm about to change things that may have the chance of negatively affecting work I have done. I've reverted to numerous backup versions at least 5 times if not more, and it can save a lot of time and avoid frustration. The frequency of how often I personally backup things is probably nearly once per session that I spend time on my mod.


Edited by sornan, 19 November 2020 - 04:30 PM.


#9
Myst42

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Thanks for all the tips.

 

I am backing up stuff, and I've started the slow process of making everything manually. It's so much I feel it's indeed gonna take months before it's all connected.

So I've been doing it by bits instead.

Combined the process with something I find more entertaining, which is actually placing enemy encounters, and I think it's looking good so far. Covered most of the battle areas in navmesh and I've found no problems.

 

By the way, since it's my first dungeon I have a lot of questions. I'm not sure if I should keep posting them here or just spam different threads, but for the sake of order, I'd rather keep it all in one place.

 

Next question I have is aboout enemy useage.

I noticed the MasterAmbushScript ones are usually unnagressive and turn aggro when activated. Those can be set up to use some animations and objects like comin out of coffins etc...

But I wanted to add some skeletons in a way they are on the ground and they get up when triggered. I remember some mods have done this but I never really paid attention to how it was done.

 

So my question is, is there a vanilla mechanic to triggering skeletons and renimating actors from a "dead" position or I should invent my own way of making a reanimation script that reacts to triggers and reanimates dead bodies or something?

 

Also tried to put a dead draugr sitting on a throne but I can't seem to get him to stay there as a container. If I tick "initially dead" he just falls to the floor, and I wanted him dead but sit.



#10
NexusComa2

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There is also the enemy "safe spots" to consider when navmeshing. If you want to go that far.

As far as the sitting dead ... I can't think of a spot in the game where this is done. In fact they always seem to pop out of a place rather than just be visible. This leads me to believe they themself couldn't do that. I've always said anything possible when programming. This one may take some out of the box thinking. The game is very fast at moving an object. Maybe break it down by moments. Focus on getting one to just be sitting in the chair. Then when triggered the one in the chair is quickly moved and normal one is moved into its place. If done right you shouldn't even be able to tell there is really two.


Edited by NexusComa2, 21 November 2020 - 02:59 PM.





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