Skyrim ruined dragons IMO

[adembroski]

Skyrim can't ruin dragons for me because there are no dragons in it. Killed a lot of large wyverns though:P

[ShannonRutherford]

Skyrim brought dragons to life IMO!!!

[mikeprok17]

Skyrim can't ruin dragons for me because there are no dragons in it. Killed a lot of large wyverns though:P

Calling TES dragons wyverns is probalby due to the influence of another game or genera's depiction of dragons. TES has always shown its dragons to have two legs (rear) and two arms/wings for flight. Just because another game or series of books depict their dragons as having front limbs, rear limbs, and wings does not make them more legitimate dragons. For comparison, the dragons in some Asian legends can fly without wings and are more serpentine than their western counterparts. They are just as legitimately dragons, just a different type. Wyverns in some legends are indeed dragons, just another type that are ususally noted for having a poisoned tail. The wyrms in some legends have very stubby legs, a serpentine body, and no wings yet they are also classified as dragons. It all depends upon who is writing the story as to what defines a mythical creature. Dragons do not have to conform to D&D, Palladium, Dragon Age, Tolkieen, Morte D'Arthur, or any particular story or games' standards to be legit for the TES settings. For the record, I personally prefer dragons that have front and back limbs in addition to their wings, but I do not dislike the TES style of dragons as they are what has been shown for this game setting throughout the the years.

 

Just my $0.02 and best regards,

 

Mike

Edited April 2, 2013 by mikeprok17

[sisterof]

Agreed with mikeprok17.

Dragons as depicted in other lores are great as they are, but TES did something quite admirable by introducing them without re-using the same mold Tolkien established. The Dovah are unique in several aspects, and the story of them teaching the Voice to mortals stems from real life mythology of dragons teaching humans to speak. Their status as immortal, timeless beings also makes them impressive when compared to the beastly, lizard-minded ones of other universes. Their anatomy is fantastic too - I love the fact that they have five limbs instead of the usual seven. The way they walk mimics bats, making them look brutal and somewhat out of their element on ground, while when flying they have the grace of swimming serpents.

My issue with them is only the lack of unique personalities and more quests involving them instead of simply random encounters with a hostile creature. The mod Wyrmstooth that we have here is amazing, it's exactly the kind of quest Bethesda should have introduced - a Dragon with his agenda, with plans and strategy that don't consist solely of brute force, and who wants his piece of power and territory regardless of what happened to Alduin. When he "died", the world belonged to the Dov, so when he woke up he could see no other way for the world to function - with or without Alduin.

Play it sometime, it's a great quest! By the way....

 

... Why... Would you want a winged creature to live in an underground dungeon?

I lol'd. Thanks for that. And agreed.

Edited April 2, 2013 by sisterof

[mikeprok17]

I will have to check out Wyrmstooth. Thanks for the tip!

 

I am a big fan of dragons, partly because alma mater's mascot is a dragon.

Edited April 2, 2013 by mikeprok17

[hmill13]

Wall of text-- You have been warned.

1.) yes npc's have remarks on dragons etc etc. Im not talking about that. Im talking about dragons actually having individual quests per dragon. And aside from that everyone always reacts the same way when they see the dragon like its uncommon which it just isnt after the first few hours of gameplay. Especially when you get higher up and dragons are attacking towns like all the time yet they all stare at it like its something they never saw before.

2.) I have Deadly dragons. Im not looking for meaningless difficulty increase, i want a meaning to fighting dragons rather than to get spells that lets be honest i hardly never use in the first place unless its the main quest which is drastically short anyways and it dosnt really revolve around multiple dragons only one and by the time you get too him youve fought so many generic dragons its more like oh this again, okay lets get this over with, good your dead? okay that was 'eventful' :s

3.) Like i said i want the dragons to have personality (no not just blurting the same speeches they all say while fighting). I want there to be a reason to go out and fight a dragon other than just meaningless soul farming.

Anyways like i said i im working on my own mod now that changes that. Increasing difficulty is pointless if the means to achieve it means your reduced too repetitive motions+lack of unique rewards. Ive so far removed every dragon in the outside world and instead have them spawn when certain quests activate and even than you do have to actually find the dragon and unravel its own mini plot. So far ive only got like 4 dragon quests (debating one atm if i should extend it keep it or drop it all together) but its coming along. I might use the random quest generator the CK scripting has and make a few templates so there is at least an infinite number of these quests incase people still want to farm souls too. There will still be random flying dragon encounters (although extremely rare and extremely difficult along with having a quest to follow up in most situations). Its something ive really noticed about Skyrim while playing it over the past year. It seems to focus on the 'get what you want now even if you play casually' elements rather than the role play elements that Morrowind had that actually made you work for your overpowered god like character and also had enough distinction between quests along with there rewards that they give an incentive to do them. Perhaps i will do a lot more later after the dragons are redon and implement the game with SkyRE. Mainly i want to make all these rare items one finds in a game actually have meaning too them other than something good too sell. Im thinking of removing daedric all together or making it extremely difficult to find as in, not being able to be smithed, only being found on daedra on very rare and special situations and never being able to find it in a full set.

Im sure ill find other things i wanna change too lol. And yeah although npc's do react to dragons, i find it always looks far too under-scripted, if an event like a dragon attacks a town say dawnstar they should be talking about it for days if not weeks from than on. Not act as if it never happened and after i wait for 1 hour everyones on there normal day to day lives. This seems to be my largest problem with skyrim is how much of a lack of effort was put into characters that were not plot characters. Even in Oblivion one could follow around someone for an entire day and not see them do something the same once (they had weekly things not hourly, they did things on thursday they wouldnt on tuesday). Its really obvious skyrim was aimed more at people with less attention spans than the previous games were simply due to all the elements placed in the game designed to make it that one could not ruin there experience or have negative results. I was honestly suprised when i noticed there are npc's in skyrim that you cannot talk too period! They have no speech options other than saying hello (no entering a conversation). Its my opionion that bethesda concentrated a lot on two things in skyrim. 1 is the landscape, they did a lot on the landscape which is nice (if it was a little original other than blackreach, which isnt that original either since it just copies oblivion:IS but with blue lighting). the 2nd was the quest system. They really REALLY did there best to make it that no matter what you do no matter how hard you try no matter how disconnected you become from a quest there is no and i mean no way in all of eternity that you can actually fail a quest or ruin your chance at getting or completing a related quest. This kinda came in with oblivion though but it got way worse in skyrim. Apart from death there is no way for me to fail a job. *somes held hostage they need saving before death*? i wait for a week yet the quest is still available when it would be obvious that person would be dead by now. Its things like this that make the game feel plastic, linear, hand-holding and dare i say uncharacteristic of a CRPG. In general the entire games quest system seems to revolve around making you feel as bad ass as possible while ignoring all realistic aspects of the game world.

Than there is the lack of repercussions for your actions, oh god i hate this subject. So many people will quote the civil war and the main quest... Really if you think changing a few guards posts and a couple of dialogue options is equal in scale to saving the world and taking over a nation than im just gonna say wow. There is so much wrong with the civil war, first off its the same quests on both sides just being on the other side, essentially you dont even take different routes or play the role the other side was playing when you fought them on the opposing side. Now im not gonna get into how linear the civil war campaign is cuz its just too pointless to state something so obvious and explain it. What im going too say is that the way it only gives you one option there is nether a good or bad side its always grey, there is never an option where your just gonna say you know what screw this im just gonna kill you and turn coat (which you cant because of the stupid immortal plot characters). Anyways when it comes down too it after you've defeated either side whether you were stormcloak or imperial basically its the same result, the guards get changed, you get a terrible sword (which most properly sold because this game seems to give rare items out like its Christmas making the time spent value for them non-existent.) and a few of the npc's in whiterun have an option to ask them how they like being under said winners rule, to which no one seems to care anyways. I know its a harsh country i know many wouldnt care but its still bad writing this is a fictional world nothing is written in stone it can be whatever the creators want it too be, to say no one cares because of said culture is rough is like is just lazy writing, trying not to make the other plots break or a bit of both. No one recognizes that you basically solo'd a nation to death even worse guards still treat you as a citizen. Hell at least in Oblivion people noticed you where the champion.

And all of the above can be applied too the main quest too. They lost a load of good crpg elements that brought such a big world too life to bring in fast combat and simplistic narration to appeal too a younger generation that is not used to real rpg's where your actions matter and you have too deal with your choices and take responsibility rather than just paying a guard a few thousand septims. Sure in Morrowind you could kill off every single player in the game leaving the land of Vvardenfell absolutely empty with you the only person around every single plot broken and FAILED but that was your choice, and you always had save files. The last thing i think needs redoing is the guild and faction system. Oh god is that just terrible. Essecially they took faction alinement's which was a fundamental thing in CRPG's to characterise your avatar and set him apart from npc's and made them into extended quests primarily for non grinding levling. Im not complaining about the quests for the guilds they were pretty great, in fact i enjoyed most of them more than the main quest lol. Its just joining a guild in skyrim is just one thing, possible quests. There is nothing more built onto being in a guild other than having quests available that werent before. in Morrowind if I joined the mages guild my standing amongst about 50% of the games world went up and the other 50% went down (at differant intervals per group). The other mages guild (i forget there name now) would hate you and if you continued too do mages guild quests you would actually forfeit any possibility to join the other guild and many others too. Although this limits your options its also a big enhance on impact of options. It not only makes you feel like your in a world that is alive and thinking but it gives you reason to replay the game in more than one way other than combat style. There were multiple vampire factions and being bitten by a vampire by one would let you join that faction and any other vampire faction would view you as an enemy while all vampires in your faction viewed you as an ally. again this is something that makes the world feel alive. There is plenty more i find wrong but anyways enough of my rant onto the real business.

After im done with the dragon aspect im gonna expand on it and fix as many of these problems as i can if not all in some way or another. Thanks for reading up till now too i know its a lot more than usually reading on here xD.

Edited April 3, 2013 by hmill13

[hmill13]

And yes Wyrmstooth is a great mod i plan on doing things a bit like that maybe not as elaborate maybe some will be more elaborate but obviously simply due to a scale thing there will only be a fixed number of quests to that scale.

[hmill13]

 

 

Skyrim can't ruin dragons for me because there are no dragons in it. Killed a lot of large wyverns though:P

Calling TES dragons wyverns is probalby due to the influence of another game or genera's depiction of dragons. TES has always shown its dragons to have two legs (rear) and two arms/wings for flight. Just because another game or series of books depict their dragons as having front limbs, rear limbs, and wings does not make them more legitimate dragons. For comparison, the dragons in some Asian legends can fly without wings and are more serpentine than their western counterparts. They are just as legitimately dragons, just a different type. Wyverns in some legends are indeed dragons, just another type that are ususally noted for having a poisoned tail. The wyrms in some legends have very stubby legs, a serpentine body, and no wings yet they are also classified as dragons. It all depends upon who is writing the story as to what defines a mythical creature. Dragons do not have to conform to D&D, Palladium, Dragon Age, Tolkieen, Morte D'Arthur, or any particular story or games' standards to be legit for the TES settings. For the record, I personally prefer dragons that have front and back limbs in addition to their wings, but I do not dislike the TES style of dragons as they are what has been shown for this game setting throughout the the years.

 

Just my $0.02 and best regards,

 

Mike

Last i heared wasnt a wyrm just an adolescent/ancient (depending on type) or magically created dragon? like a baby/ancient and or a familiar. Edited April 3, 2013 by hmill13

[hmill13]

And just to re-iterate i dont mind that TES has its own style of dragons and lore etc. Ive personally learnt everything there is to learn about TES lore and i like it. I just felt they kinda over used dragons in a recycle manner rather than any engaging way. It made fighting dragons like fighting a wolf, just another animal you have a different combat style too beat. Considering dragons was a big selling point of Skyrim i would have thought they would have put more thought into them than just making some models, scripts and let them loose to act like mindless beasts, which might i add goes against ALL TES lore. As dragons are meant to be the most intelligent creatures of all time on par with the aedra (gods, the eight and the rest that dont look over Nirn) and were meant to be cunning, like real cunning, these are meant to be the sons of akatosh the most powerful aedra since Lorkhan (son of Padomay or Sithis (the brother of Anu/Anubis the father of creation and partner to Nir (the mother of creation))). They are meant to be selfish beings that do not (and this is why i dont like the plot of skyrim), do not ever, ever work for anyone but themselves. There is no way in oblivion any dova would ever follow another dragon. He would rather challenge him for his seat. And although dova are cunning they are very primal and find it hard to hold back instincts to dominate, hense why it would be impossible for a dova to follow the orders of another dragon without having that dragon trying to overrule the one giving the orders simply because it cant control his instincts. A dova would lure the dragonborn into a trap. not fight him head on. Sure a dova is instinctual but they arent stupid, this is the only being that can kill the, ofc they wouldnt risk attacking him head on. But i really think bethedsa dosnt care much for lore anymore or intelligent story design...

Edited April 3, 2013 by hmill13

[mikeprok17]

hmill13 worte:

"Last i heared wasnt a wyrm just an adolescent/ancient (depending on type) or magically created dragon? like a baby/ancient and or a familiar."

 

 

Again this classification comes from one or a few particular settings or legends. The term wyrm was used to describe a specific type of dragon in some legends rather than a age catagory, which was adopted by TSR for D&D. They catagorized their dragons using an age scale from hatchling through ancient, in the 1st edition Monster Manual. This age scale was also a general measure of the dragons' power. Later, they added wyrm and great wyrm as additional age catagories in Dragon magazine, then adopted these to extra age ranks into the Forgotten Realms setting. They also had Wyrm monster that was a flightless dragon in either Monster Manual 2 or the Fiend Folio. I cannot recall what they currently use, as I have not played newer edition of D&D much.

 

In old legends, a wyrm or worm described a type of dragon that was flightless and serpentine in European dragon legends. I have seen other settings with different dragon vs. wyrm delinetations. The computer RPG, Dragon Age for example uses wyrm to describe male dragons, which are more animal-like and flightless and Dragon to describe females of the same species that are intelligent and winged. I bring this up mainly to illustrate my earlier point about remembering that the author/creator of the fiction will define dragons in their world.

 

hmill13, I completely agree with you about wishing for dragons with more uniques personalities and motivations in Skyrim. I wish you the best of luck with the mod your are building to give dragons more flavor.

 

Best regards,

 

Mike